Not good, Kainoa Winston to Michigan
- Thread starter EdwardoCarrachio
- Start date
He's a high 4* -- ranked #88 nationally in the composite. The knock on him is that he's shorter than listed, but the kid can play. Big loss for us.
Also New Jersey WR Quincy Porter (top-50 nationally) committed to OSU today. Was probably the best WR target on our board, although we have other options.
Need to win more of these recruitments.
Also New Jersey WR Quincy Porter (top-50 nationally) committed to OSU today. Was probably the best WR target on our board, although we have other options.
Need to win more of these recruitments.
Agree. PSU WRs have to come up big this year or the WR coaching experiment needs to end. How many WRs can OSU stock up on?
The thing is, Ohio St gets about 3 top 100 WRs (several #1 WRs) per year. They simply discard the ones that they like the least. Some of those like Jameson Williams transfer to places like Alabama, become 1st team All Americans and 1st round draft picks. The WRs still sign up for it. It makes little sense, but they all believe they are the ones that will play as true freshmen.
All top tier kids do. That's part of what makes them elite. They aren't afraid of competition and they believe they'll win it.
They can't all get balls thrown their way at the same school. They aren't doing their homework.
Yet earlier this week, PSU received a commitment from a cornerback from Mater Dei High School in California who was being recruited, and probably still is being recruited, by several Blue Blood schools. So, I guess that on that day, the slow decline of PSU football stopped for a brief period.
Remember, PSU even lost highly touted recruits during Joe’s prime, like Tony Dorsett and Jim Kelly, when losing recruits like them really meant something. I would say that the program survived rather well. Now, if you lose a recruit, you always can go the free agent route.
Let’s face it, probably a significant number of these verbal commitments, even if they end up signing, will end up at another school or schools before they finish their careers, and PSU both will get some of these transfers and lose some of their signees.
If I were you I would wait to see: 1) If he decommits, 2) If he ever makes it onto the field, and 3) If he contributes in a meaningful way. I have seen premature arguments like yours before, and the decline thing is still TBD in spite of this one verbal commitment.
And you can say the same thing with almost any recruit from any school these days. Getting a verbal commitment now doesn’t mean the same thing as it did even a decade ago, and that’s not just a PSU thing.
By the way, I posted earlier this week that I was skeptical about the verbal commitment of the California kid because of the distance from his residence to State College. Hopefully, he keeps his commitment, but that’s obviously not a certainty.
But those that actually do get balls thrown their way become 1st round draft picks. Hartline has already produced 5 of them, and he probably has 3 more on his roster right now. And that doesn't even include guys like Terry McLaurin.
A few years ago, they had three dudes nearly get 1,000 yards in the same season.
If you're a stud WR recruit, it's pretty obvious why OSU is the top program in the country right now.
Stud linemen and secondary guys went to Saban for years. Even if other 5* studs at their same position were committed in their same class. The best want to play with the best.
Nobody should have the expectation that we produce at that level. But as was already said, this year will be crucial for our WR development. It's an enormous glaring weakness that we have to address.
He doesn't produce them. They commit to play for him. When you get 3 top 100 at any position WRs per year including a number of #1 WRs in the country, a handful are going to be drafted in the 1st round. That would be true no matter which school they've signed with.
The problem is that some (even 1st rounders) get run off there or never get their chance to shine. Jameson Winston was one who had to leave to get his shot. He only was selected as 1st team AA OVER the Ohio St WRs that he was going to play behind and then went in the 1st round. Julian Fleming would be a household name across the country and perhaps in the NFL draft last year had he stayed home at PSU instead of going to Ohio St.
They are doing their homework
They expect to win the job. As should all elite players. If they don't, then they leave. What are you missing here?
I don't want a player to pick Penn State because they think it will be easier to play. That's a weak player.
Chris Olave was a 3* recruit. Marvin Harrison Jr. was the #20 WR recruit in his class. Terry McLaurin was a marginal player before Hartline got there, and he credits Hartline with his development.
He's gonna have like 8 1st round WRs here within a few years. That doesn't happen without superior coaching. The number of 5* WR busts in college football is a mile long. Don't be ridiculous.
Jeremiah Smith reportedly got less NIL money from OSU than other schools that were after him (FSU and Miami). One of their 5* WR recruits from last year's class told a reporter that OSU wasn't offering him as much in NIL as the southern schools, but he valued his future NFL draft stock more.
The lesson here is that coaching makes all the difference. We can make ourselves feel better by suggesting that OSU just buys everybody and Michigan just cheats. But at the end of the day, those programs have outcoached us.
(if it was simply a matter of NIL money and recruiting rankings, then OSU's OL play should have been much better than what it was. That's coaching, too)
Yeah.....UGA stacks 5* defensive recruits atop one another. It's because elite defensive kids want to be a part of that machine at Georgia and play under Smart. They're attracted to the best. UGA has an elite culture on the defensive side of the ball. OSU has an elite culture in their QB/WR rooms. Michigan has an elite culture on their OL. We used to have that elite culture in our LB room. The best want to be a part of the best.
And in the transfer portal era, if it doesn't work out.......easy. A transfer is painless, and there will be a bunch of suitors.
At the WR position, we have to up our game -- recruiting and developing, period. Hoping that a Quincy Porter will commit to us because the competition here is less is absolute loser talk.
You don't want players to look at stacked depth charts and realize that they can play sooner at another school? That IS doing your homework. Some of these recruits don't want to sit for 2 to 3 years waiting their turn and if it doesn't come have to transfer with a year or two at most to make it happen for them elsewhere.
Some top recruits even want playing time as freshmen. If you go to a school with 3 top 100 overall players at your position per year, then the math tells you that you are likely sitting for probably 2 years even if you are a 1st round type of talent.
Now list all of the top 100 overall WRs that sat there or had to transfer to get their opportunity.
WRONG. Maybe Michigan has outcoached us and Ohio St (some say knowing the other teams plays was a big part of that).
But Ohio St has underperformed with their talent. The only other college football teams with as much talent as (or even in the ballpark with) Ohio St for the last decade was Alabama and Georgia. Both of those programs have multiple national championships where Ohio St has none. That's coaching. And it is underperforming coaching. Even average coaching performing in line with recruiting would have produced a couple of natties for Ohio St.
What hurts is losing recruits at positions where we have been historically weak and are in dire need of flipping the script. DL and WR come to mind
No I want kids that believe they can start at elite programs that don't settle because they're afraid of competition.
Math doesn't tell them that. They believe they're better. That makes them elite. You want kids to be scared of competition apparently which is absurd.
You realize they can leave basically immediately if things don't work out, right?
If you're a WR and you can go to play for Hartline why wouldn't you? His track record speaks for itself. Just like any elite defensive talent should be pushing hard to play for Kirby. The ultimate goal is an NFL career not playing time day 1. Elite athletes aren't afraid to work.
But when we beat other teams it’s just because we have better talent than they do…got it.
Elite players should apparently just go play in weak conferences so they can play day 1 against weak teams. Even if the argument that kids should make decisions based on depth charts made sense, which it doesn't, then Penn State isn't the best option either. Go to Rutgers or Syracuse or WVU
Your schtick is old. Because someone states that all elite players at a position should not all choose the same school doesn't mean that they believe that they should go play in weak conferences or that they want players afraid of competition.
And you know that. But you dishonestly pitch the position as such. You aren't worth anyone's time here if you can't discuss honestly or continue to misrepresent other's words to such extreme hyperbole.
You're the one rambling nonsense that elite kids shouldn't go to Ohio State and other schools because they'll have to compete to play. Every kid should pick the school they think helps them best achieve their goals. When talking elite players that's the NFL. If you're an elite WR you go to Ohio State and play for Hartline. Same reason we recruit well at RB and TE. Micah Parsons's success will help us get better edge rushers. This isn't complicated for anyone but you.
You do realize everything you just accused him of with this post is exactly what you do constantly in threads, right?
I never said that. Inventing strawman arguments this morning?
It's pretty simple. Talent is a big part of the equation. It's not the only part of the equation. And this "woe is me" crap re: OSU having more talent than us because they out-cheat/spend/buy/NIL us conveniently ignores the fact that our coaching has failed to close the gap.
This guy has an inferiority complex that makes Notre Damers look reasonable. Always some ready-made excuse for why other programs have the edge on us. It's never about the fact that our coaching staff has repeatedly bungled opportunities to win program-changing big games or develop positions of need.
For real. Edwardo minimizes Hartline's impact because they bring in the top rated WR talent. Umm, ok, maybe that is why! Meanwhile, JFs hires during his tenure at WR, for the most part, has been utterly atrocious. But, let's blame NIL. Between this thread and his odd defending of Carter in the tow truck incident, it's par for the course on here.
Yeah, Hagan's seems like another poor hire at wr coach. The room has been a mess and he can't recruit at a high level.
Yikes. This is really poorly informed.
Say what you want about development (ask Terry McLaurin or Marvin Harrison about their thoughts on Hartline), but he spots raw talent like no other coach we've had in a long time, if ever. JSN was a 3* when Hartline offered -- many fans (myself included) were wondering what exactly he saw in him. Olave was a 3*. He was the first P5 coach to offer Mylan Graham -- not even Indiana had offered him yet. Graham wound up a 5* and is our slot WR of the future.
In the 2019 class, there were four 5* WR recruits nationally. Only Garrett Wilson became a 1st round pick.
In 2020, there were five 5* WR recruits nationally. Only JSN was a 1st round pick (unless Fleming gets there).
Of the top-10 WRs in the 2021 class, only Xavier Worthy and Egbuka are likely 1st rounders.
The bust rate for 5* WRs nationally has been very, very high the past several years. The bust rate among 5* WRs that Hartline has gotten is statistically far lower than the national average.
Check out Hartline's WR's in the NFL. It's either an extraordinary coincidence that so many Hartline WRs are big time NFL WRs, or it's directly related to his development chops.
Diminishing Hartline's role in spotting, recruiting, or developing seems silly. You guys have had coaches who have done amazing things at their position as well -- your DB coach is a great one.
By the way, not sure missing on Winston is a huge blow to you guys. He apparently turned a lot of eyes by showing up to camps smaller than thought. He's a good prospect, but with limitations. I'd expect his stock to drop a bit.
Because I say that not every top 100 WR should go to Ohio St or point out that many had to transfer to see the field and end up being All Americans when they do? Please.
But by your own words talent isn’t the only part of the equation, but that’s what I keep reading is the only reason we win the games we win. So our player development has surpassed just about every team except the OSU’s and Bama’s of the world….not a bad place to be.
Hey, those teams might have equal or better returning production! Lol (I didn't look, not looking 😅)
He's a tweener. Kinda like Lamont Wade was. Highly rated, but doesn't exactly have a specific position or track. I've read Nickel, Safety, maybe Corner. Michigan supposedly pitched Sanristil. I'd be curious where he stood on our board.
Also, this is a Harbaugh-less Michigan. A lot of new variables and moving parts.
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