Official Graham Spanier trial thread.

[LaJolla Lion]

The problem is that GSpan did supervise children. Many Freshmen are 17 and some are even as young as 14. Of course there are many other events & things, as well as just guests & visitors to the campus where younger children are there. There is a day care onsite. He obviously, was ultimately in a supervisory role over all of that.

There's a huge grey area of interpretation that the jury must wade through. But the word "supervisory" and the definition offered by the judge makes at least that point quite clear.

The buck stops at the top pretty much everywhere...right or wrong...but in this case there is no smoking gun that he told anyone to hide this or keep quiet. He simply went with his employees recommendation as far as I know. Looking back you can say it was the wrong call and in many places you can lose your job when you don't make the right call....but did he really "break the law" here? He took a recommendation as far as I can tell and went with it. Bad decision...people can say that, but was it really a conspiracy to keep Jerry out there in order to protect some image? I'm not sure how or where that was ever proven. If they come back with a guilty verdict the only reason I can see is that he didn't override Curley and Schultz. It would be one thing if GS said, we need to make this go away...but he didn't.

 

[AvgUser]

The fact that this jury did not come back at 5:15 PM Thursday afternoon with a verdict to all charges is exactly the reason why Curley and Schultz took a stupid ol' plea.

The average juror must have the brain capacity of a gallon of milk

 

[wensilver]

The buck stops at the top pretty much everywhere...right or wrong...but in this case there is no smoking gun that he told anyone to hide this or keep quiet. He simply went with his employees recommendation as far as I know. Looking back you can say it was the wrong call and in many places you can lose your job when you don't make the right call....but did he really "break the law" here? He took a recommendation as far as I can tell and went with it. Bad decision...people can say that, but was it really a conspiracy to keep Jerry out there in order to protect some image? I'm not sure how or where that was ever proven. If they come back with a guilty verdict the only reason I can see is that he didn't override Curley and Schultz. It would be one thing if GS said, we need to make this go away...but he didn't.

The jury was asked to follow the law. The law was given to them. They can't change that law back in the jury room with their Number 2 pencils.

Spanier broke no laws.

It's really that simple.

 

[BobPSU92]

What is the jury having for breakfast? Is it guilt-free? Maybe some cage-free eggs?

 

[interrobang]

They're going to find him guilty of EWOC because they're going to incorrectly interpret the law.

They got C/S to plea to EWOC even though the law didn't apply to them. With that, they can define Spanier being part of the law too since he "employs" C/S. Actually a brilliant move by the state.

It'll also be an amazingly easy appeal.

 

[rudedude]

The buck stops at the top pretty much everywhere...right or wrong...but in this case there is no smoking gun that he told anyone to hide this or keep quiet. He simply went with his employees recommendation as far as I know. Looking back you can say it was the wrong call and in many places you can lose your job when you don't make the right call....but did he really "break the law" here? He took a recommendation as far as I can tell and went with it. Bad decision...people can say that, but was it really a conspiracy to keep Jerry out there in order to protect some image? I'm not sure how or where that was ever proven. If they come back with a guilty verdict the only reason I can see is that he didn't override Curley and Schultz. It would be one thing if GS said, we need to make this go away...but he didn't.

It was a bad decision in hindsight. That is what gets lost in all this morass. The state keeps insisting the admins "knew" Jerry was a pedophile in reverse and that just isn't so. That would be like a serial killer getting arrested for shoplifting and then let go and later being blamed for allowing 10 more people to get killed. The mistake made was not really coming down hard on his access to anything Penn State in 2001. If he was pissed, then let him file a grievance. But, as we all know, he was granted emeritus status by "the powers that be" and that action may be more telling than anything we know.

 

[coveydidnt]

The jury was asked to follow the law. The law was given to them. They can't change that law back in the jury room with their Number 2 pencils.

Spanier broke no laws.

It's really that simple.

They can't? How many times do you expect to be wrong on all this?

 

[LaJolla Lion]

The jury was asked to follow the law. The law was given to them. They can't change that law back in the jury room with their Number 2 pencils.

Spanier broke no laws.

It's really that simple.

I'm far from a lawyer, but that is my understanding. The only thing I can really remember him saying is "what if" when it comes to not reporting. I forget the words, but that was the gist of it I believe. It wasn't let's hide this, but he was actually looking at the bigger picture overall. Of course now we can say he should have said no matter what make the call.

Like you have been stating...if GS is guilty...so is the TSM and really in a much bigger way due to what they did and Jerry's role from day one there. The thing is going after a head of children's charity isn't as juicy as taking down an icon. The sad thing is if Joe wasn't such a good coach/person or famous...I honestly don't see it getting the media attention/witch hunt like it did. Look no further than MSU and Nasser. Something like 70+ victims, not a peep on the news. This was the lead on every major network...sports or not for weeks. Bad decisions were made everywhere, but only 2 and now maybe a third will be held accountable...if you can really even say that. C/S would have had a much harder trial IMO due to the paper trail, but as you know...nobody knows what TSM ever really said. Well now we know they said to wear swim trunks in the shower...awesome. I can see why the defense rested, but why didn't they bring up a Clemente type of an expert and speak to the grooming methods used and how someone like these guys with ties to Jerry may be fooled or in denial over this. They made one bad decision not to call DPW as far as I can tell, but how many people tied to TSM, PSU, and Jerry also missed these signals? I would estimate in the hundreds possibly.

 

[pandaczar12]

The more "truth" that comes out, the deeper the cover up hole gets.

Yes, we all see how you're reacting to the truth. Keep digging.

 

[wensilver]

They're going to find him guilty of EWOC because they're going to incorrectly interpret the law.

There simply is no way.

The judge clearly read all the elements of both charges as per PA law. They simply do not to apply to Spanier.

 

[pandaczar12]

He slumped in his chair, putting his face in his hands when told. He became very upset, and reported the conversation.

According to who? That should tell you all you need to know.

 

[BobPSU92]

Please take this opportunity to use the Ignore feature.

 

[Talpsu]

I remember going with my father we sat outside memorial stadium in the car to make sure mike would not have a problem.

Fact

hahahahahah so you and daddy waited in the car incase mikey had a problem? That's rich.

 

[interrobang]

There simply is no way.

The judge clearly read all the elements of both charges as per PA law. They simply does not to apply to Spanier.

And they didn't apply to C/S either. The only ones that this law applies to in this case is TSM employees.

But that won't stop this jury from finding Spanier guilty.

 

[kevina001]

Bad decision...people can say that, but was it really a conspiracy to keep Jerry out there in order to protect some image? I'm not sure how or where that was ever proven.

That is such an absurd premise to begin with--the protecting the image stuff.. They had absolutely no incentive to cover this up.

Do you remember when the story first broke that Jerry was arrested? It registered barely a blip with the national news. Jerry being arrested would not have destroyed Penn State's image. Not even close. It's a nice (made up) narrative to run with if you want a juicy story. But it's all bullshit.

Where is the one email, the one witness, the one account of any kind--where someone was told to keep this matter quiet in order to protect Penn State's image? It does not exist. Plenty of the opposite exists. But you would never know that if you just followed the news stories of this ordeal. Sad!

 

[AldenT]

I remember going with my father we sat outside memorial stadium in the car to make sure mike would not have a problem.

Fact

Hang on....you and your dad waited outside in a car to make sure your pushing 30 6'4 brother didn't have an issue? Issue with what? Being at an event where Sandusky was? So your first inclination was to protect Mike? SO ALL OF YOU KNEW AND DID NOTHING?

SANDUSKY WAS FREE IN THE FIRST PLACE DUE TO MIKE'S COWARDICE.

What planet are we on here.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

Please take this opportunity to use the Ignore feature.

Please remember that adults on a message board should have differing opinions and only close minded people are afraid of varying opinions.

Bob's idea of a discussion.

 

[wensilver]

I can see why the defense rested, but why didn't they bring up a Clemente type of an expert and speak to the grooming methods used and how someone like these guys with ties to Jerry may be fooled or in denial over this

It would have been too much and to be honest - Spanier is on trial with specific charges. He currently sits in that chair innocent.

The Judge was very clear that the state has to PROVE their case. It's not up to Spanier to PROVE his innocence.

The burden is on the state. The state dragged along a bunch of props & costumes and Ditka put on a cabaret act - but they did not check the box on the charges.

 

[kevina001]

The Judge was very clear that the state has to PROVE their case. It's not up to Spanier to PROVE his innocence.

The burden is on the state. The state dragged along a bunch of props & costumes and Ditka put on a cabaret act - but they did not check the box on the charges.

I understand all of that and it makes perfect sense -- in theory. But we are not dealing with a normal situation. The coverage of this case over the last 5 years has left Spanier and anyone associated with the case fighting an uphill battle. He is assumed guilty by most. He almost DOES have to prove his innocence in this case. It's not fair at all, but I think it is the reality.

 

[pandaczar12]

hahahahahah so you and daddy waited in the car incase mikey had a problem? That's rich.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but it seems impossible for him to have witnessed something that was severe enough to make him react that way when subsequently seeing JS, yet not be severe enough to take action in the moment or any time for the next ~ten years.

 

[interrobang]

Hang on....you and your dad waited outside in a car to make sure your pushing 30 6'4 brother didn't have an issue? Issue with what? Being at an event where Sandusky was? So your first inclination was to protect Mike? SO ALL OF YOU KNEW AND DID NOTHING?

SANDUSKY WAS FREE IN THE FIRST PLACE DUE TO MIKE'S COWARDICE.

What planet are we on here.

There seems to be a lot of circumstantial evidence that everyone treated Mike with kid gloves.

 

[Talpsu]

There seems to be a lot of circumstantial evidence that everyone treated Mike with kid gloves.

Yeah you gotta admit that this one takes the cake. Its like they treated him like he was 5 years old. So if there was a "problem" was mike going to run over to daddy in the car and ask him what he should do?

 

[interrobang]

It all comes back to Mike, as a first course of action when witnessing what he thought was a serious crime, calling his dad for advice on what to do. And dad's advice not to call police or intervene, but to "just come home."

That's treating someone with kid gloves.

 

[BBrown]

The fact that this jury did not come back at 5:15 PM Thursday afternoon with a verdict to all charges is exactly the reason why Curley and Schultz took a stupid ol' plea.

The average juror must have the brain capacity of a gallon of milk

I disagree. I like that the Jury is actually thinking this through and asking some pretty good and pointed questions. Whether that results in a ruling most of us think is fair and just is another thing. But to me it at least shows they are "thinking" about it.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

As I was saying earlier...dukie shows great restraint.

 

[NittPicker]

I disagree. I like that the Jury is actually thinking this through and asking some pretty good and pointed questions. Whether that results in a ruling most of us think is fair and just is another thing. But to me it at least shows they are "thinking" about it.

Also, a good night's sleep will go a long way to help the jurors clear their heads and decide based on facts instead of emotion. A person isn't guilty simply because some prosecution witnesses sob while testifying. A person isn't guilty simply because the prosecutor yells at the jury and demands they do as she says.

 

[baconking1]

As I was saying earlier...dukie shows great restraint.

Yes he does.

 

[jim cummings]

As I was saying earlier...dukie shows great restraint.

It's easy to do when there's nothing you can say.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

It's easy to do when there's nothing you can say.

No he shows great restraint as people talk about cowards, but calling someones brother a retard online is pretty much the gold standard.

 

[jim cummings]

No he shows great restraint as people talk about cowards, but calling someones brother a retard online is pretty much the gold standard.

Then how do you sum him this family's actions for over a decade while people who had no direct experience with Jer's problems had to sweat it out for 6 years in a courtroom?

 

[baconking1]

No he shows great restraint as people talk about cowards, but calling someones brother a retard online is pretty much the gold standard.

Funny like that isn't it ? People extremely close to the situation are obviously liars, in one side that is. But the men actually tried for things are absolutely truthful?

But from what I've read dukie maintains his composure and listens to others, and talks to others. I don't see him calling people names .

 

[PSU Dave]

The smart people get weeded out in jury selection, on purpose. This is going to be a guilty verdict.

Why? What do you think's going to happen? I can't believe they'd be unanimous to convict with no evidence.

That would have been my take too. Ditka shot herself in the foot with one of her statements in closing and let it slip Second Mile was the culprit.

"If you have the evidence you beat on the evidence. When you have no evidence you beat on the table"

Ditka beat on the table.

Well, actually she strode back and forth, jangled her charm bracelets, flipped her hair, kept pulling at her top to cover her broad chest (she's a big woman) and admonished the jury to just use your common sense ( forget that I gave you zero evidence)

All I can say is when the judge ran down all the elements the jury needed to find in order to list each charge as guilty - the state gave zero evidence.

0 + 0 is still 0

If - for some bizarre reason - the jury finds on ANY charge, then EVERY college president & upper admin here in the Commonwealth better find a new job. This sets a dangerous precedent and there is no f*cking way ANY quality person would EVER want that job.

Which just f*cked up things for college students and all those paying tuition for that.

So she went wild huh? There it is. If she throws a fit, you must acquit.

 

[BBrown]

Then how do you sum him this family's actions for over a decade while people who had no direct experience with Jer's problems had to sweat it out for 6 years in a courtroom?

Maybe he and or they didn't do all of what they should have or could have done, especially Mike and his dad, but the derogatory name calling by a few should stop.
dukie at least tries to explain some things.
Also I don't know what the "memorial stadium" is reference too but considering MM got death threats I think it was a pretty prudent course of action on their parts.

 

[jim cummings]

Funny like that isn't it ? People extremely close to the situation are obviously liars, in one side that is. But the men actually tried for things are absolutely truthful?

But from what I've read dukie maintains his composure and listens to others, and talks to others. I don't see him calling people names .

Dukie has engaged and that's fine. He's a nice guy. Sure he means well.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

Then how do you sum him this family's actions for over a decade while people who had no direct experience with Jer's problems had to sweat it out for 6 years in a courtroom?

I don't call his brother a retard for one. Mistakes were made by so many people...MM up to GS, TSM, DPW, and all over the place. You're made because he didn't end it which is fine, be mad...and call him names if it somehow helps. I was speaking about his brother showing great restraint.

 

[baconking1]

I hope Mike's ex was smart enough to go after his award as marital property, since his hot bajangy and the settlements were related to when they were still married. I hope he ends up like Curly in the 3 Stooges short where he inherits 50 grand, but due to all the taxes and stuff, he ends up with 67 cents.

Scroll to the end:

View embedded media

Maybe his wife might be open to a reconciliation now?

 

[Talpsu]

Im not going to sit here and call Dukie a liar but I do know that for the first few years he claimed Mike never golfed with Jerry whenever everyone said they remember him golfing in one of the tourns. Now it turns out he was actually sitting in the parking lot with his dad while mike was golfing "in case there was a problem". In dukies defense most of the claims were of a TSM tourn and not this other one but still its pretty odd to me.

Lastly Im still waiting to here how all of a sudden at this trial that mike now says he told Tim and Garry "I saw jerry sexually molesting a child" when up until this point and several trips to the witness stand it has been "I would have said" "I got my point across" "they understood what I was revering to" "it doesn't take rocket science to understand what was going on"

 

[baconking1]

I don't call his brother a retard for one. Mistakes were made by so many people...MM up to GS, TSM, DPW, and all over the place. You're made because he didn't end it which is fine, be mad...and call him names if it somehow helps. I was speaking about his brother showing great restraint.

In this trial Curley couldn't recall anything , Schultz described a naked bear hug is what he got from Mike, and Mike tells the same story as before .

There was enough for these to guys to report and document better, which would have insulated penn state from criminal and fiscal responsibility. Think about it, here's a report we made on this date. They checked , they found nothing.

Case closed and an unfortunate mistake.

 

[interrobang]

In this trial Curley couldn't recall anything , Schultz described a naked bear hug is what he got from Mike, and Mike tells the same story as before .

There was enough for these to guys to report and document better, which would have insulated penn state from criminal and fiscal responsibility. Think about it, here's a report we made on this date. They checked , they found nothing.

Case closed and an unfortunate mistake.

And as the defense attorney noted, Schultz's description of the bear hug was the very first time in the last 6 years that Schultz even mentioned such a thing.

Why would he mention that now yet in 2011 during his GJ testimony, allow himself to get coaxed into suggesting that what happened may well have been fondling?

 

[jim cummings]

I don't call his brother a retard for one. Mistakes were made by so many people...MM up to GS, TSM, DPW, and all over the place. You're made because he didn't end it which is fine, be mad...and call him names if it somehow helps. I was speaking about his brother showing great restraint.

OMG you're right I'm so sorry