OL Development - can we get some Sunbelt coaches & recruits?

[step.eng69]

If only we could run 90% of our plays out of the I formation behind Sam Gash.
Do you know why teams don't do that anymore? Because it doesn't work, because the athletes and schemes have evolved to make it a very low percentage way to try to beat an opponent.
Does anyone remember the cheer that was given when Paterno ran his first play out of the shotgun?
It wasn't so long ago.

Joe took a shotgun on this hunting trip​

NEIL RUDEL,Special to the Record

UNIVERSITY PARK — Thirty-five years into his tenure, Joe Paterno has finally unveiled the shotgun. (I believe Sept. 30, 2000)
Who knows what the next 35 years will bring?

Penn State (2-4) was actually in the formation a total of four plays during Saturday's 22-20 win over Purdue (3-2). The first play resulted in Rashard Casey getting sacked for a seven-yard loss. Casey also scrambled out of the formation a couple of times and once handed the ball off to Omar Easy for an 18-yard gain.

"We've been fooling around with the shotgun since back in the spring but I've never had quite enough confidence in the centers," Paterno said. "This week, we had only one bad one (snap) in practice. I figured we might as well try it." The crowd noticed immediately.


If You Have Toenail Fungus Try This

"I knew we'd get somebody's attention," Paterno said, smiling.
It helped Casey get some more running room. Casey ran 14 times for 81 yards, winding up with a net total of 48 as he was sacked five times for 33 yards in losses.

"We've been practicing them (shotgun, pitch plays) for so long, it was a matter of Coach (Paterno) feeling comfortable enough to call those plays," Casey said.
On his scrambling, he said: "I'm not going to sit back in the pocket and throw the ball away every time. If I think I have a chance to make a play by running the ball, I'm going to get out and run."

 

[scrivener]

Defensive line is everything! period. Its the one position on the field, both sides, that actually forces the alteration of the offense. Its why defensive ends are highest paid, most sought after player in paid football, quarterback aside. If you can disrupt the passing game of your opponent, you have a chance to win any game.

It is...and PSU hasn't had the Hutchinson's, or Bosa's of the world. Despite your angle that modern football is the way of the world, you still win and lose at the LOS. PSU sure does lose that way.

 

[lowhandicapper]

I just brought up UGA and LSU you myopic goof; They weren't built around power running games, but they had a running game. You are turning my point into an all or nothing...which you are doing to favor your point. I brought up stats, you are speaking nothing but air.

Yes, teams that win championships don't suck at things, they're somewhat good at everything but running was the worst part of Georgia's game but you cant figure that stuff out.

 

[scrivener]

It is...and PSU hasn't had the Hutchinson's, or Bosa's of the world. Despite your angle that modern football is the way of the world, you still win and lose at the LOS. PSU sure does lose that way.

You just proved my point....if your passing game is disrupted, and you are able to resort to plan B, running the ball, that is the difference. What do they say, that a running game and defense travels? Not so much passing.

 

[lowhandicapper]

You just proved my point....if your passing game is disrupted, and you are able to resort to plan B, running the ball, that is the difference. What do they say, that a running game and defense travels? Not so much passing.

It doesn't really work that way but you on with your bad self.

 

[scrivener]

Yes, teams that win championships don't suck at things, they're somewhat good at everything but running was the worst part of Georgia's game but you cant figure that stuff out.

The worst part of their game? LOLOL...Jesus, do some research. They had two RB's with over 700 yds rushing -- and a total of five with more than 200. Sounds like running wasn't a problem at all...in a better conference too.

 

[scrivener]

It doesn't really work that way but you on with your bad self.

Actually it does...You yourself said Michigan's team was a fluke yadda yadda. They weren't explosive and at times, had difficulty throwing last year. Yet, their running game was consistent and enabled them to win the LOS.

 

[BBHorn86]

Michigan sucks, they had a fluke year. They were good because of Aiden Hutchinson, his play and leadership not due to their running game. In fact it was their shitty offense that kept their ceiling low and made getting crushed in the playoff a foregone conclusion.
Even the sun shines on a dogs ass some days.

You might be right, time will tell but JJ McCarthy looks really good. With Cade McNamara at QB I thought we would hang with Michigan even on the road. With JJ McCarthy and his athleticism I now just hope we can be competitive. It is still early in the season, it will take a few more weeks for the real contenders to emerge but I will not be surprised if Michigan is one of them.

 

[lazydave841]

App ST had the bowl 40 minutes vs TaMu, and crushed them at the LOS

I think you are asking the wrong question. Why did A&M allow this? They've recruited at our level, if not better, the past 5 years. They have a DL coach many here lamented not getting our DC job.

Back to the original title of the thread - how are the smaller division teams getting those type of lineman then?

I liken a lot of it to the fact that outside of the top 100 recruits, the 101-1000 rated kids there is not a lot of difference in them coming out of high school and it's development and motivation that plays a big factor.

As for App State, they have 3 5th year seniors on their OL, another senior (I think he's a 4th year but I can't tell off quick glance), and RS FR at C.

You can't replicate age sometimes.

The week prior, they lose a shootout to UNC. This week, they physically dominate a supposed SEC power.

 

[lowhandicapper]

The worst part of their game? LOLOL...Jesus, do some research. They had two RB's with over 700 yds rushing -- and a total of five with more than 200. Sounds like running wasn't a problem at all...in a better conference too.

The Georgia Bulldogs were 6th in their own conference in rushing last year. 6th. It was the worst part of their game.

 

[scrivener]

You might be right, time will tell but JJ McCarthy looks really good. With Cade McNamara at QB I thought we would hang with Michigan even on the road. With JJ McCarthy and his athleticism I now just hope we can be competitive. It is still early in the season, it will take a few more weeks for the real contenders to emerge but I will not be surprised if Michigan is one of them.

Agreed...the schedule needs to unfold for Michigan, PSU, and many others to see who is for real. But, you are right, Michigan looks good so far. Be careful giving praise to other teams on here...you might get attacked.

 

[scrivener]

The Georgia Bulldogs were 6th in their own conference in rushing last year. 6th. It was the worst part of their

The Georgia Bulldogs were 6th in their own conference in rushing last year. 6th. It was the worst part of their game.

Yes...and they still had balance in their offense. Conference rankings don't always tell the whole story. What was PSU in the B1G? If UGA had our rushing numbers last year, they aren't winning a title...period.

 

[LMTLION]

Realign expectations? This is PSU...a major, big brand program, filled with tradition, and a history of running the ball, prior to the last 10 years. So, last year, finishing last in the B1G in running....the worst output we've had on the ground in recent memory is where we should expect? App ST had the bowl 40 minutes vs TaMu, and crushed them at the LOS. When was the last time PSU truly walloped a legitimate program at the LOS...it requires some serious deep thinking...that is a major problem. I think the point he was trying to make is many, many teams, especially lesser programs, make it look so easy to run, and for PSU, it's extremely labor intensive. That is a systemic problem -- either the scheme we are playing, the recruits at that position, or strength training. all of that falls on the head coach. Sorry, but PSU should not be anywhere near dead last in the B1G running the football..if those expectations are fine with you, then 7-9 win seasons sound right up your alley.

Yeah the last few pandemic seasons have been lousy. Before that Saquon, Sanders and Brown seemed to do OK. It seems that we now have a freshman rb with the same abilities as those 3 rbs. Many of you live in the freaking past. It is no longer 3 yards and a cloud of dust on each down.

 

[lazydave841]

Agreed...the schedule needs to unfold for Michigan, PSU, and many others to see who is for real. But, you are right, Michigan looks good so far. Be careful giving praise to other teams on here...you might get attacked.

Michigan has looked very efficient so far. Better than I would have expected after their losses from last years team considering how they played in '19 and '20.

However, take nothing from the Hawaii game. Vandy scored 60 on those guys; they are a glorified high school team.

 

[scrivener]

Yeah the last few pandemic seasons have been lousy. Before that Saquon, Sanders and Brown seemed to do OK. It seems that we now have a freshman rb with the same abilities as those 3 rbs. Many of you live in the freaking past. It is no longer 3 yards and a cloud of dust on each down.

No question...but being balanced inside your offense doesn't mean you have to be like Iowa, Arkansas, Wisconsin, and other vertically challenged teams. Those big runs yesterday vs Ohio were awesome...they are also a tiny part of most games....everything else in the margins is vital -- and typically where PSU has failed at the LOS

 

[KCLion]

I liken a lot of it to the fact that outside of the top 100 recruits, the 101-1000 rated kids there is not a lot of difference in them coming out of high school and it's development and motivation that plays a big factor.

Again - the title of the thread coaches and players in lesser conferences finding a way to run against upper level teams. Our OL has been a run blocking liability for years. Whether that’s ability, scheme, development, motivation, etc. we need to be better. We’ve had the good fortune to have some exceptional skill players to cover for some of the inadequacy, but it shouldn’t require the very best running backs to be able to run the football.

 

[lowhandicapper]

Yes...and they still had balance in their offense. Conference rankings don't always tell the whole story. What was PSU in the B1G? If UGA had our rushing numbers last year, they aren't winning a title...period.

Look man, I'm not into beating dead horses. Even in all my myopic-ness (super neat and clever wordsmithing)
The importance of a good running game is the least it has ever been in the history of football. You can win a championship with a mediocre running game but not with a mediocre passing game. It is what it is. The philosophy is proven in historical results.
Do you have to be able to pick up a few first downs on the ground when you're holding a lead late in a game...Well it certainly helps but it isn't a requirement. Has it burned Penn State because they couldn't? it certainly has, maybe they should have called passes. Maybe they should have run their all-time leading QB, who knows, all I know is power running games don't win championships in today's games otherwise Wisconsin would be the team to beat. Ohio State has arguably the best running back in CFB this year and they won't win a championship because of him, they'll win because of their QB and explosive outside weapons.
There is no need to try to jamb an old philosophy into a new hole. In fact a lot of running stats for these good teams come because they have built big leads with explosive passing plays and they obviously want to call plays that start to shorten the game so some of the running stats are actually due to the passing game.
This is football in 2022, get used to it.

 

[bdgan]

Who cares what they were before? This is today, now, different jimmy's and joes.
Running the ball in modern college football is a sidelight. It is only employed to close games, not win them.

Who cares what they were before? This is today, now, different jimmy's and joes.
Running the ball in modern college football is a sidelight. It is only employed to close games, not win them.

I just looked at the top games yesterday. Alabama, Texas, Georgia, OSU, & Michigan and the number of run plays were pretty close to the number of pass plays.

Ohio State struggled vs ND last week so they decided to grind it out in the second half.

There is certainly more passing now vs the old days but running is still important. Why else were we excited about Barkley? Why are we excited about Singleton & Allen?

 

[SoParkLion]

critical 3rd and short

Exactly. Against Ohio, you need to be able to convert that without running a non RPO QB with your RB lead blocking.

 

[lazydave841]

coaches and players in lesser conferences finding a way to run against upper level teams

A&M is probably the toughest game on App State's schedule. They've probably had it circled and game planned for it for months.

App State is probably the 7th or lesser toughest game on A&M's schedule. They probably never thought about them (outside of analysts watching film) until Monday. And by the way they played, some never realized it until Saturday afternoon.

Other than that, you are seeking some kind of answer that doesn't exist outside of the bubble that was yesterday in my opinion. I don't think App State could play an SEC West schedule the rest of the year and win out simply because they ran well enough to beat A&M 17-14 yesterday.

 

[scrivener]

Look man, I'm not into beating dead horses. Even in all my myopic-ness (super neat and clever wordsmithing)
The importance of a good running game is the least it has ever been in the history of football. You can win a championship with a mediocre running game but not with a mediocre passing game. It is what it is. The philosophy is proven in historical results.
Do you have to be able to pick up a few first downs on the ground when you're holding a lead late in a game...Well it certainly helps but it isn't a requirement. Has it burned Penn State because they couldn't? it certainly has, maybe they should have called passes. Maybe they should have run their all-time leading QB, who knows, all I know is power running games don't win championships in today's games otherwise Wisconsin would be the team to beat. Ohio State has arguably the best running back in CFB this year and they won't win a championship because of him, they'll win because of their QB and explosive outside weapons.
There is no need to try to jamb an old philosophy into a new hole. In fact a lot of running stats for these good teams come because they have built big leads with explosive passing plays and they obviously want to call plays that start to shorten the game so some of the running stats are actually due to the passing game.
This is football in 2022, get used to it.

Stetson Bennett wasn't a superior QB with an explosive passing game. He was the 44th best QB in the country last yr in yds...slightly ahead of Will Levis. Agree to disagree...a running game enables you to be explosive, and vice versa. They work together. As a defense, you have to prepare for both. When you play PSU...it's disrupt the OL and the passing windows, and you are fine. That has to change. You seem to take that sentiment as I'm all about old school. Not at all...on the contrary. I'm about having more balance inside your offense to be able to win big games and take that next step. You bring up OSU...Ryan Day even said postgame vs ND, that last year they couldn't win a physical, plodding game when they had to -- that they were dominated at the LOS. Well, vs ND, they couldn't get the passing game going, so they ran it for 172 yds and ball controlled. It's about evolving and not being a one trick pony.

 

[Wallace Breen]

Michigan sucks, they had a fluke year. They were good because of Aiden Hutchinson, his play and leadership not due to their running game. In fact it was their shitty offense that kept their ceiling low and made getting crushed in the playoff a foregone conclusion.
Even the sun shines on a dogs ass some days.

You just opened yourself up to the counter argument that the approach does work. Most of Bama's recent titles were won using Michigan's approach along with the most recent national champion.

 

[PAgeologist]

A&M is probably the toughest game on App State's schedule. They've probably had it circled and game planned for it for months.

App State is probably the 7th or lesser toughest game on A&M's schedule. They probably never thought about them (outside of analysts watching film) until Monday. And by the way they played, some never realized it until Saturday afternoon.

Other than that, you are seeking some kind of answer that doesn't exist outside of the bubble that was yesterday in my opinion. I don't think App State could play an SEC West schedule the rest of the year and win out simply because they ran well enough to beat A&M 17-14 yesterday.

Well that is A&Ms stupidity then. App St has more than earned the reputation that they aren't a pushover.

Can App St perform like that for a full SEC season? No. But they can for 1 game and they've proven that.

 

[scrivener]

You just opened yourself up to the counter argument that the approach does work. Most of Bama's recent titles were won using Michigan's approach along with the most recent national champion.

Exactly...I've spent many minutes on this with him, to no avail.

 

[lazydave841]

One thing about UGA last year that isn't being accounted for:

Their defense set them up with a lot of short fields. They weren't going to rack up a ton of yards regardless of whether they were better at passing or running.

Also, UGA played multiple RBs exactly the way Franklin wants to deploy our backs, but hasn't won enough games for it to be credited as such since '19.

And in '19, we wanted him to shìt or get off the pot and pick a bell cow.

 

[CJFisJoePaII]

No, that isn't a serious statement in the title. But how can 3 Sunbelt teams run the ball on Nebraska, TA&M and... ND while PSU can't run the ball consistently against Ohio U? I'm not trying to criticize, but what are they doing differently? Is our scheme too complex?

Only problem is that you are largely full of crap. Rushing statistics are reduced by yardage lost on QB sacks - so let's look how PSU's leading rusher has done. Singleton is PSU's leading rusher in both attempts and yardage. Singleton has 20 carries on the season for 204 yards (10.2 ypc average). Now let's take away his two best runs as you suggest (absurd as that represents 10% of his carries, but let's do it, so we can analyze your claims). You claim that PSU's RB couldn't run the ball outside those 2 carries..., but the numbers say different. Singleton (again, PSU's leading runner in both attempts and yards) has 98 yards on 18 attempts excluding his two TD runs, a 5.44 ypc average (again, excluding his two best runs on 20 carries is statistically absurd - if you want to exclude his two best runs, then we should also exclude his two worst runs so we don't bias his stats. How much you want to bet that his average ypc don't eclipse 6 ypc if we exclude the 2 best and 2 worst [a statistically valid thing to do]???). In any event, your claim that PSU's #1 RB hasn't shown the consistent ability to run the ball is complete bullshit and tripe based on nothing but your blowhard opinion.

 

[scrivener]

One thing about UGA last year that isn't being accounted for:

Their defense set them up with a lot of short fields. They weren't going to rack up a ton of yards regardless of whether they were better at passing or running.

Also, UGA played multiple RBs exactly the way Franklin wants to deploy our backs, but hasn't won enough games for it to be credited as such since '19.

And in '19, we wanted him to shìt or get off the pot and pick a bell cow.

No question...and in today's game, multiple backs is a necessity. But, also, without even a competent OL, it doesn't matter what back you pick. At the end of the day, PSU needs way more balance to get where they want to go, and where JF says the program aspires to. This seeking big plays or bust mentality can't be the sole blueprint.

 

[scrivener]

Only problem is that you are largely full of crap. Rushing statistics are reduced by yardage lost on QB sacks - so let's look how PSU's leading rusher has done. Singleton is PSU's leading rusher in both attempts and yardage. Singleton has 20 carries on the season for 204 yards (10.2 ypc average). Now let's take away his two best runs as you suggest (absurd as that represents 10% of his carries, but let's do it, so we can analyze your claims). You claim that PSU's RB couldn't run the ball outside those 2 carries..., but the numbers say different. Singleton (again, PSU's leading runner in both attempts and yards) has 98 yards on 18 attempts excluding his two TD runs, a 5.44 ypc average (again, excluding his two best runs on 20 carries is statistically absurd - if you want to exclude his two best runs, then we should also exclude his two worst runs so we don't bias his stats. How much you want to bet that his average ypc don't eclipse 6 ypc if we exclude the 2 best and 2 worst [a statistically valid thing to do]???). In any event, your claim that PSU's #1 RB hasn't shown the consistent ability to run the ball is complete bullshit and tripe based on nothing but your blowhard opinion.

LOL...Here we go.

 

[lowhandicapper]

You just opened yourself up to the counter argument that the approach does work. Most of Bama's recent titles were won using Michigan's approach along with the most recent national champion.

Omg, seriously. Alabama had the 1st Heisman WR since DESMOND HOWARD. And he started the season as WR #2.
Anyone that doesn't understand Alabama wins championships because they field NFL like front 7's doesn't understand football.
What Michigan accomplished in one season after trying for 16 straight doesn't justify anything.

 

[lowhandicapper]

Omg, seriously. Alabama had the 1st Heisman WR since DESMOND HOWARD. And he started the season as WR #2.
Anyone that doesn't understand Alabama wins championships because they field NFL like front 7's doesn't understand football.
What Michigan accomplished in one season after trying for 16 straight doesn't justify anything.

If Saban could run the ball every play of the game he would, however he's the best coach ever and he knows that doesn't work, even when you are a clearly superiorly talented team than every one of your opponents.

 

[scrivener]

Omg, seriously. Alabama had the 1st Heisman WR since DESMOND HOWARD. And he started the season as WR #2.
Anyone that doesn't understand Alabama wins championships because they field NFL like front 7's doesn't understand football.
What Michigan accomplished in one season after trying for 16 straight doesn't justify anything.

Yep, they have dudes at WR and QB...and have all during Saban's time. Have u also seen the list of Heisman candidates and All Americans at RB during those years? Their running game has been top flight and elite. It's not a one way street as you've been implying this whole time. Like Bama would have won all these titles if they had marginal at best RB's and a barely functioning running game.

 

[CJFisJoePaII]

LOL...Here we go.

Yeah LOL, the facts say differently than your bullshit. PSU's #1 RB's numbers are very good whether you want to take away their 2 best carries or not. What is "lol" is your moronic response to factual statistics that demonstrate our #1 RB has not struggled to run the ball consistently.

 

[lowhandicapper]

Yep, they have dudes at WR and QB...and have all during Saban's time. Have u also seen the list of Heisman candidates and All Americans at RB during those years? Their running game has been top flight and elite. It's not a one way street as you've been implying this whole time. Like Bama would have won all these titles if they had marginal at best RB's and a barely functioning running game.

You're straw manning this now.
To win a major conference or national title you have to be average or better at everything.
A good running game is on the level of good special teams. You can't win a title with it but you can certainly lose a title without it being servicable. Championship teams have superior passing and defense. It's just a fact. It wasn't a fact in 1996 but it's a fact in 2022.

 

[scrivener]

Yeah LOL, the facts say differently than your bullshit. PSU's #1 RB's numbers are very good whether you want to take away their 2 best carries or not. What is "lol" is your moronic response to factual statistics that demonstrate our #1 RB has not struggled to run the ball consistently.

First of all, I didn't make the initial comment. Secondly, relax...it's a message board. Third, if you look as an aggregate, the thread poster is correct. The running game has been poor and unreliable for a couple of years now. Does that mean it will be this year, of course not. But, trend lines mean something for the most part. Since you took such great offense to the poster wanting to remove the big runs/plays, here is what I gather from your response: that if PSU runs the ball let's say, 28 times vs Auburn and Singleton has two runs that each go for 60 and 70 -- and then the remaining 26 carries get under 3 ypc, your argument is that PSU showed they could run the ball. That, is totally absurd.

 

[scrivener]

You're straw manning this now.
To win a major conference or national title you have to be average or better at everything.
A good running game is on the level of good special teams. You can't win a title with it but you can certainly lose a title without it being servicable. Championship teams have superior passing and defense. It's just a fact. It wasn't a fact in 1996 but it's a fact in 2022.

No question....my point exactly. PSU has been below average running the ball, and it shows. It's not like PSU is superior in passing either...so while your premise as a whole might be valid, PSU doesn't do anything superior.

 

[AWS1022]

Back to the original title of the thread - how are the smaller division teams getting those type of lineman then?

They’re not…one game doesn’t make a season.

 

[AWS1022]

You bring up the other side of the coin, the DL, another area that has lacked, and an area that needs an uptick to make the playoffs. Although, I'm expecting your reply that those days are done and nobody rushes the passer anymore. Winning the LOS on both sides of the ball are the two primary areas that have been weaknesses under JF..I see the trend at least.

But we’ve had some very good DLinemen with Franklin….we’re just in a down cycle right now with those players. It will come back around.

 

[PAgeologist]

Yep, they have dudes at WR and QB...and have all during Saban's time. Have u also seen the list of Heisman candidates and All Americans at RB during those years? Their running game has been top flight and elite. It's not a one way street as you've been implying this whole time. Like Bama would have won all these titles if they had marginal at best RB's and a barely functioning running game.

Bama has had way more success putting quality RBs in the NFL than QBs. I would imagine their opponents worried about Harris, Henry and others much more than their QBs.

Their balance is what PSU should be striving for. Yes I know it will be on a lower level overall, but the balance should be achievable.

 

[scrivener]

But we’ve had some very good DLinemen with Franklin….we’re just in a down cycle right now with those players. It will come back around.

It will need to for sure.

 

[scrivener]

Bama has had way more success putting quality RBs in the NFL than QBs. I would imagine their opponents worried about Harris, Henry and others much more than their QBs.

Their balance is what PSU should be striving for. Yes I know it will be on a lower level overall, but the balance should be achievable.

Not to mention, a true running game, or ability to at least run when u need to displays an attitude and physicality -- it provides another aspect to your overall team makeup. I don't think anyone would consider psu under jf as a physical and imposing team. Bama is the opposite.