Its a failed experiment. Phils need to cut their losses and get a Charlie Manuel type coach. Clearly he "overthunk" everything. Kaplan will be long gone before Trout is a FA....lol Personally, I think the team quit on him. He is an odd duck.
OT: 2018 Phillies Thread.....
- Thread starter Grant Green
- Start date
Its a failed experiment. Phils need to cut their losses and get a Charlie Manuel type coach. Clearly he "overthunk" everything. Kaplan will be long gone before Trout is a FA....lol Personally, I think the team quit on him. He is an odd duck.
Right now they're worse than the Orioles, thanks to Klentak and Kapler.
Wouldn't be so quick to write off Odubel. He was a good player for two or three years before Kapler got a hold of him. He's only 26. You don't write off guys like that. The Phillies have been playing head games with him, Franco (Oh, we so covet Manny Machado) and Nick Williams while putting Kingery and Hoskins on this can-do-no-wrong pedestal. I also think the K/K regime screwed up Aaron Altherrrrrrr.
The team's performance over the last six weeks or so has been alarming. I'm very worried.
The team's performance over the last six weeks or so has been alarming. I'm very worried.
By the way: Love that this thread was set up at the beginning of the season. A thread by Phillies phans for Phillies phans. That's the idea, right? Excellent.
I’ve been a Phillies fan since 1960, following them in their glory years and the hard times. And since 1960, I’ve never been as disgusted with TPTB that run the team as I am now.
And I realize that’s probably saying something.
OK. One other time was I as close to being as pissed: after the 1981 season over Dallas Green and his big effing mouth.
One other thing and then I’ll shut up for the day. Maybe.
Anyhow, concerning Roman Quinn. The guy, unfortunately, gets injured every whip stitch, so you can’t count on him to be the regular CF. I believe he’s never lasted a full season in the minors. Never.
If he weren’t so injury prone, there’s no doubt in my mind that he would have been the starting CFer at least two years ago. And be one of the best in baseball at that position. .300 hitter, speed, excitement. But sadly it hasn’t worked out that way. You can’t count on him.
And I realize that’s probably saying something.
OK. One other time was I as close to being as pissed: after the 1981 season over Dallas Green and his big effing mouth.
One other thing and then I’ll shut up for the day. Maybe.
Anyhow, concerning Roman Quinn. The guy, unfortunately, gets injured every whip stitch, so you can’t count on him to be the regular CF. I believe he’s never lasted a full season in the minors. Never.
If he weren’t so injury prone, there’s no doubt in my mind that he would have been the starting CFer at least two years ago. And be one of the best in baseball at that position. .300 hitter, speed, excitement. But sadly it hasn’t worked out that way. You can’t count on him.
This will be a watershed offseason for sure. There is one recent report that concerns me greatly. The notion of Santana playing third, Rhys at first, and Franco dangled for trade. That is mind numbing.
First, if this is your plan, you immediately depress the value that you will receive in trade for Franco given that other teams realize he is not in your plan.
Second, if this is your plan, you trade the younger, cheaper, and better defensive player at the position (Franco) to cover a bad signing (Santana) from the prior year.
This is the type of move that BAD teams make.
I haven’t thought this through completely but my initial thought is that you either get BOTH Harper and Manny or neither. I see a strategy whereby you sign one and sell the other on joining forces with the player just signed. I can see them being aggressive with Manny and then offering Harper a ridiculous three year deal (something on the magnitude of $40-50m/yr for a three year deal). That would then allow them to trade Odubel which should be easy given his friendly contract. I think they should eat whatever is necessary then and move Santana. I would also decide once and for all where you want Kingery moving forward. I’ll say it’s 2b, so a trade of Cesar is done as well.
1b - Hoskins
2b - Kingery
SS- Manny
3b - Franco
OF - Williams
OF - Quinn
Of - Harper
C - Alfaro
Crawford becomes your super sub.
Who knows what this group does but the above would not shock me.
First, if this is your plan, you immediately depress the value that you will receive in trade for Franco given that other teams realize he is not in your plan.
Second, if this is your plan, you trade the younger, cheaper, and better defensive player at the position (Franco) to cover a bad signing (Santana) from the prior year.
This is the type of move that BAD teams make.
I haven’t thought this through completely but my initial thought is that you either get BOTH Harper and Manny or neither. I see a strategy whereby you sign one and sell the other on joining forces with the player just signed. I can see them being aggressive with Manny and then offering Harper a ridiculous three year deal (something on the magnitude of $40-50m/yr for a three year deal). That would then allow them to trade Odubel which should be easy given his friendly contract. I think they should eat whatever is necessary then and move Santana. I would also decide once and for all where you want Kingery moving forward. I’ll say it’s 2b, so a trade of Cesar is done as well.
1b - Hoskins
2b - Kingery
SS- Manny
3b - Franco
OF - Williams
OF - Quinn
Of - Harper
C - Alfaro
Crawford becomes your super sub.
Who knows what this group does but the above would not shock me.
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May have to go back to 1964 for a worse finish for the Phillies. The gory details from Wiki for those younger folks who weren't around:
In late September 1964, his Phillies had a record of 90–60, a 61⁄2 game lead in the National League with 12 games left to play, and were starting a 7-game home stand. Mauch decided to start his two pitching aces, Jim Bunning and Chris Short, in 7 of the last 10 games, 4 of those starts on 2 days rest (all of which they lost). The Phillies faded, losing 10 games in a row before winning their last 2 games to finish tied for second place with the Cincinnati Reds, one game behind the St. Louis Cardinals in a collapse infamously known as the "Phold." Ultimately, the season was the peak for the team in terms of wins and finish in his tenure. His last three full seasons all resulted in over .500 finishes, though they did not finish above 4th. Mauch was let go after the Phillies were 27-27 during the 1968 season.
In late September 1964, his Phillies had a record of 90–60, a 61⁄2 game lead in the National League with 12 games left to play, and were starting a 7-game home stand. Mauch decided to start his two pitching aces, Jim Bunning and Chris Short, in 7 of the last 10 games, 4 of those starts on 2 days rest (all of which they lost). The Phillies faded, losing 10 games in a row before winning their last 2 games to finish tied for second place with the Cincinnati Reds, one game behind the St. Louis Cardinals in a collapse infamously known as the "Phold." Ultimately, the season was the peak for the team in terms of wins and finish in his tenure. His last three full seasons all resulted in over .500 finishes, though they did not finish above 4th. Mauch was let go after the Phillies were 27-27 during the 1968 season.
I agree with this for the most part, I'm not sure they quit on him but after what he did to Eflin, you may be right.
An interesting team was the 1962 Phillies who went 81-80. Not bad you say, right? But the Phillies were 31-5 against the expansion Colt 45’s and NY Mets. This was by far and away the best record that any of the NL teams put up against the upstarts. The Phillies were 17-1 against Houston and 14-4 against the Mets. So, taking out their beatdown of the expansion teams, they went 50-75 against the rest of the league. Just some meaningless facts from inside my Phillies head.
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The only thing worse was Gabe running out Quinn at short for a week or so at the end of Spring Training. I felt bad for Quinn. Gabe believes that every player can play every position. It’s crazy.
Yes, I understand that. And he was absolutely horrific as a shortstop as a young player in the minor leagues. In his first two years in 66 games each season, he committed 31 and 27 errors at the position. That was 2012 & 2013.
So, let’s see. We will put him at a position he was horrible at six and five years ago and play him at that position at the major league level because you want your players to have position flexibility. Makes total sense to me.
He actually fielded fairly well, but it almost seemed like his arm slot wasn’t in sync for the position. Every throw he made was in the dirt. I felt bad watching it.
If there's an opposite of Murderer's Row, you're looking at it.
Hard to believe there are teams (White Sox and Padres) with more strikeouts than the Phils
Kapler has lost the team. Hopefully the upper management can see that his constant tinkering with the lineup, the position changes, etc all brought us to this point in time. They have a lot of talent but it's been squandered because the manager is listening to his ipad and not his players.
12-0 now, not out of the 8th. 32-4 so far in this series in three games. That's stunning.
Have to take issue with the comment on talent. I think you are overrating this talent greatly. The proof is right in front of you - they can't hit, they field badly, the bullpen stinks, the catching is atrocious. Is there one positional player that any team in the playoff picture would want? Hoskins is the only one and he's a major defensive liability. Otherwise, I don't think so.
I don't care for Kapler, I'm old and I prefer baseball before this analytics fad took over, but no analytics can overcome fundamentally bad players and that's what they have. And they don't play hard, IMHO.
I laughed at the all the players saying nice things about kapler a cpl months ago because you can't say bad stuff when the guy is winning.
But karma is a bitch, and anyone who follows the game knows you cannot keep making idiot moves and get away with it. Now that the bleep has hit the fan, the players are sending their own message... this mgr sux.
That said, most of these players ain't worth
why manny and/or harper or anyone else would want to be part of this ragtag bunch of R words is beyond me.
As my main man once said...
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/d9776d7f-0610-44af-9936-39a202df7f9c
But karma is a bitch, and anyone who follows the game knows you cannot keep making idiot moves and get away with it. Now that the bleep has hit the fan, the players are sending their own message... this mgr sux.
That said, most of these players ain't worth
why manny and/or harper or anyone else would want to be part of this ragtag bunch of R words is beyond me.
As my main man once said...
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/d9776d7f-0610-44af-9936-39a202df7f9c
This is true, and then throw in the complete lack of baseball sense up and down the whole roster. How many times all year are you seeing throws to the wrong base, runners forgetting how many outs there are, forgetting or not seeing a runner stop at a base in front of them, fielders not knowing how many outs there are, just teener-league level baseball sense. It's bad enough giving away free bases and runs like Santa, but combine it with the rate they're striking out and scoring 4 runs a week...it ain't pretty.
It starts with coaching. Yes, at this level they should know better but part of coaching is drilling these basic fundamental things into their heads constantly. There are no superstars on this team, their own opinions notwithstanding.
Wow....shades of It Happens Every Spring (1949) where a professor finds some magic compound that is repelled by wood.
A college professor is working on a long-term scientific experiment when a baseball comes through the window, destroying all of his glassware and spilling the fluids that the flasks and test tubes contained. The pooled fluids combine to form the chemical "methylethylpropylbutyl," which then covers a large portion of the baseball. The professor soon discovers that the fluid, along with any object with which it makes contact, is repelled by wood (cf. Alexander Fleming's serendipitous discovery of penicillin).
Suddenly, he realizes the possibilities and takes a leave of absence to go to St. Louis to pitch in the big leagues, where he becomes a star and propels his team to the World Series.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Happens_Every_Spring
You can't fire a guy after one year when you have a team with flaws that the Phils have. Especially when he showed hope for the first half of the season and it's his first year as manager. If next season is more of the same, he is gone.
At this point, I'd be looking more at Klentak the Kapler.
I remember awhile back when another poster made a comment about my negative views towards the Phillies at the time they were going well. I posted before the season started that I had them for 73 wins. They will certainly exceed that but I never factored in or imagined Nola being that dominant pitcher he was when making my call for 73 wins. They exceeded 73, largely based on Nola alone. This team had some fools gold in the form of winning a lot of close games and winning on the strength of hitting home runs. Those things always even out so this collapse is really a matter of them regressing to where they really are as a team.
It’s interesting to see where they go. I have never been a Klentak fan even though most people i respect do support the notion that you build a successful franchise through the farm. But I can say with 100% certainty that his approach is somewhat in conflict with the owner’s desire to win much sooner than later and that a natural conflict could be forseen by the owner wanting to deal younger assets for winning sooner. I have always viewed Klentak and Middleton as being on a collision course.
I do think that Kapler will likely be back but Klentak’s quotes are interesting. His notion that they will change their approach without specifics leads to a lot of questions. Does Klentak support the overwhelming use of analytics? Does Klentak side with the notion of Gabe’s exaggerated use of the shift, something that vet pitchers Arietta and Neshek don’t approve of one iota. Does Klentak hope for a more traditional lineup with more defined roles as opposed to the constant shuffling? Ditto with Kapler’s spin the daily wheel on his bullpen use versus defined roles for his pen arms? If Klentak views things very differently, then Gabe won’t survive unless he wins and wins next year. Kapler is very likely on the clock.
When I asked someone in the spring about the new approach, one person who you all know told me that the Phillies have a roomful of stat geeks doing only God knows what. I thought of that exchange frequently during the year where it seemed like the Phillies were more a science experiment than a baseball team.
My biggest concern is that the offensive youth might be very over rated. Alfaro, Kingery, and JP make me question if these guys are starting players on a good MLB team. Nick and Altherr were mismanaged this year certainly at the start. Hoskins is a wonderful kid cut in the cloth of older day players. But he can’t be a .240 hitter if you are going to win. I’d like to see him be much more aggressive and get himself into hitters counts. The more veteran players like Franco, Cesar, and Odubel are all at an interesting crossroads. How each of these guys go next year is a crap shoot.
I was encouraged by the pitching and these guys all learned on the job before hitting a wall. Pivetta, Eflin, and Vince won’t have great numbers on the backs of their baseball cards for this year, but each had bright spots and have a chance to make a respectable staff if they each can take another step forward. Arietta was a disappointment and impresses me as a guy who wants to win now given his age and decline. I’m really curious if he wants to be here to be honest. I’m hoping that this year was not Nola’s career year. The new kids all talk about swings and misses, us old farts remember when mound demeanor was at the core of any convo on pitchers. Nola has mound demeanor in spades, I’m hopeful he is a true ace.
It’s going to be interesting for sure. In a couple of weeks, I’ll sit my ass in the dugout at old Jack Russell, run the bases a bit, and throw a couple in the pen and fully digest this season. The countdown will then officially start for February and a return to Clearwater. If you get down, shoot me a message and I’ll buy you a beer.
It’s interesting to see where they go. I have never been a Klentak fan even though most people i respect do support the notion that you build a successful franchise through the farm. But I can say with 100% certainty that his approach is somewhat in conflict with the owner’s desire to win much sooner than later and that a natural conflict could be forseen by the owner wanting to deal younger assets for winning sooner. I have always viewed Klentak and Middleton as being on a collision course.
I do think that Kapler will likely be back but Klentak’s quotes are interesting. His notion that they will change their approach without specifics leads to a lot of questions. Does Klentak support the overwhelming use of analytics? Does Klentak side with the notion of Gabe’s exaggerated use of the shift, something that vet pitchers Arietta and Neshek don’t approve of one iota. Does Klentak hope for a more traditional lineup with more defined roles as opposed to the constant shuffling? Ditto with Kapler’s spin the daily wheel on his bullpen use versus defined roles for his pen arms? If Klentak views things very differently, then Gabe won’t survive unless he wins and wins next year. Kapler is very likely on the clock.
When I asked someone in the spring about the new approach, one person who you all know told me that the Phillies have a roomful of stat geeks doing only God knows what. I thought of that exchange frequently during the year where it seemed like the Phillies were more a science experiment than a baseball team.
My biggest concern is that the offensive youth might be very over rated. Alfaro, Kingery, and JP make me question if these guys are starting players on a good MLB team. Nick and Altherr were mismanaged this year certainly at the start. Hoskins is a wonderful kid cut in the cloth of older day players. But he can’t be a .240 hitter if you are going to win. I’d like to see him be much more aggressive and get himself into hitters counts. The more veteran players like Franco, Cesar, and Odubel are all at an interesting crossroads. How each of these guys go next year is a crap shoot.
I was encouraged by the pitching and these guys all learned on the job before hitting a wall. Pivetta, Eflin, and Vince won’t have great numbers on the backs of their baseball cards for this year, but each had bright spots and have a chance to make a respectable staff if they each can take another step forward. Arietta was a disappointment and impresses me as a guy who wants to win now given his age and decline. I’m really curious if he wants to be here to be honest. I’m hoping that this year was not Nola’s career year. The new kids all talk about swings and misses, us old farts remember when mound demeanor was at the core of any convo on pitchers. Nola has mound demeanor in spades, I’m hopeful he is a true ace.
It’s going to be interesting for sure. In a couple of weeks, I’ll sit my ass in the dugout at old Jack Russell, run the bases a bit, and throw a couple in the pen and fully digest this season. The countdown will then officially start for February and a return to Clearwater. If you get down, shoot me a message and I’ll buy you a beer.
It would be the ultimate kick in the balls if the Mets overtook the Phils in the standings. As was noted earlier in the thread, the Nats (and Mets) were sellers before the trade deadline but the players who remained still had pride in themselves and played hard. Now the Nats are in second place and the Mets are eyeing third. OTOH, they Phils made some moves around the edges but imploded in epic fashion. Lack of pride? Or talent? Or confidence? Bad leadership? It's more than one of those.
Freddie continues to own. I'd take him over Harper. If nothing else you don't have to face him anymore.
Pop the champagne corks, the Mets lost and the Phils will finish in 3rd place.
@mrtailgate
I enjoyed your take on things all year, as well as all the contributors to this thread. I don't know much about Klentak but I do recall in January I was at a coaches' clinic in PGH (I was an asst HS coach) and Bob Boone was there. After he spoke there was the informal stand-around BS session and somebody asked Boonie what he thought of Kapler. I may have mentioned this... Boonie said he didn't know him but heard a lot about him and none of it good. I was taken aback by that kind of frank evaluation from a guy who is in the Nats' Front Office but now that the season is over, I see where he was coming from.
I'm not a fan of Kapler's style either, it's simply not stood the test (other than a month and a half) and although I guess I'm OK with giving him another season, I agree that these young players are over-valued, there are a lot of issues with the defense, the baserunning, the use of the pen, the catching is awful, and the lack of star talent so yeah, I guess I'd give him a little more leeway (They are 18% better than last year) but if they're 10 under .500 at the break or something akin to that, you have to scrap it. The Phillies' presence is sad right now.
It should be an interesting winter. I hope so, anyway.
I enjoyed your take on things all year, as well as all the contributors to this thread. I don't know much about Klentak but I do recall in January I was at a coaches' clinic in PGH (I was an asst HS coach) and Bob Boone was there. After he spoke there was the informal stand-around BS session and somebody asked Boonie what he thought of Kapler. I may have mentioned this... Boonie said he didn't know him but heard a lot about him and none of it good. I was taken aback by that kind of frank evaluation from a guy who is in the Nats' Front Office but now that the season is over, I see where he was coming from.
I'm not a fan of Kapler's style either, it's simply not stood the test (other than a month and a half) and although I guess I'm OK with giving him another season, I agree that these young players are over-valued, there are a lot of issues with the defense, the baserunning, the use of the pen, the catching is awful, and the lack of star talent so yeah, I guess I'd give him a little more leeway (They are 18% better than last year) but if they're 10 under .500 at the break or something akin to that, you have to scrap it. The Phillies' presence is sad right now.
It should be an interesting winter. I hope so, anyway.
Clearly need an upgrade in talent, across the board. While their record was good in the first half, this team still had many issues. Defense, base running, and bullpen have been consistently bad the full season. I have not watched close enough to critique Kapler as most of the posters have here.
