OT: Fina cries like a baby, complains about PSU "truthers"
- Thread starter TenerHallTerror
- Start date
The 98 incident was thoroughly investigated with no charges filed. If there was any evidence he rubbed his schlong against v6, I have no doubt that charges would have been filed.
Sandusky has stated he was specifically told to never shower again with v6 and he never did.
Iin the 2000/2001 incident, v2/am stated they were horsing around slapping towels with nothing sexual involved. NCIS Special Agent says that he doesn’t find McQueary’s testimony credible and neither do I. Sandusky clearly exercised poor judgment in showering with am, but there is nothing to suggest it was criminal other than McQueary’s dubious testimony.
A straight man told not to shower with a woman ever again but given an opportunity to do so in an otherwise vacant location might just take that chance. Same situation here.
We’ll never agree on this Franco, so let’s just let it go.
Got ya Poz, as. I'm getting older, sorry about the innuendo, I truly don't understand.Just because you don’t get a charge out of rubbing your schlong against somebody doesn’t mean that person doesn’t feel offended by your schlong being rubbed against them.
Is that cleearly stated?
I am fine with agreeing to disagree. I just don’t find McQueary’s testimony that the 2000/2001 incident was something sexual at all credible. I am guessing from your response that you do. I believe that McQueary’s testimony including the false grand jury presentment was orchestrated by Frank Fina. I hope that Fina has to answer for his transgressions, but am concerned that he will only get a slap on the wrist. I believe he is largely responsible for the damages caused as a result of the fiasco.
There is no good reason for a man to be alone with in a shower with an unrelated child. Especially after having been investigated by the police for having done so a few years earlier. None.
I question a lot of the same things that you do. But the showering just doesn’t have a reasonable innocent explanation.
I don;t disagree that showering with an unrelated minor is not a good idea. I just don't think the punishment should be life in jail especially if it can't be established that the motivation was sexual.
I understand that point Franco. But honestly, unless Sandusky was developmentally delayed there is no innocent explanation for that behavior.
Also, remember Sandusky was unable to have biological kids. All his kids were adopted. I believe from the foster care system. It’s reasonable that Sandusky viewed every child he mentored as no different than one of his own. For him, the line between “his kids” and “others kids” was blurrred. Especially, since almost all of these boys came from single mother homes.
Another important thing is that Allan Myers mother actually helped him craft the statement to Everhart after Sandusky’s arrest that Allan and Jerry were just slapping towels in the shower. (I think Allan actually absurdly tried throwing her under the bus after Shubin got him to flip). If Allan’s mother had absolutely no issue with Jerry Sandusky horsing around in the shower with her teenage son, I think that’s pretty good evidence such behavior was innocent.
What about the fact that Jerry’s parents owned a Rec center and that Jerry grew up in an environment where men and boys showered and probably also swam naked together all the time.
What's your point? Jerry couldn't recognize that behavior is not acceptable? Guess what, the police and DPW told him it was not acceptable just in case he couldn't figure it out on his own. Jerry agreed to never do it again.
I believe there is a discrepancy over what Jerry agreed to. Jerry has stated that he remembered that he agreed specifically to never shower again with v6 and not that he agreed to never shower again with any boy. After 1998 he never showered with v6 again.
V2 was like a son to him. Jerry stood with him at senior day for his last high school football game, V2 lived with Jerry when he attended Penn State. V2 invited Jerry and Dottie to his wedding. V2 drove over 10 hours to attend the funeral of Jerry’s father. On the day of the infamous Lasch building shower, Jerry and v2 had driven from Washington Pa. back to State College after a book signing event for Jerry’s new book. V2 has said that nothing sexual ever happened with Jerry including at the Lasch building shower incident.
Check what was noted in the 1998 police report about what Jerry agreed to. It is not believable that Jerry would think that would only apply to V6.
You are welcome to your own opinion. I am only relating what Jerry has stated. Jerry believed that he was cleared of wrong doing in the 98 incident that was initiated by v6’s mother. V6’s mother was upset by the showering episode and Jerry may have thought that authorities wanted to make sure that there was no reason for her to be upset in the future. In fact, Jerry maintained a 13 year positive relationship with v6 and his Mom including v6’s Mom asking for Penn State football tickets on occasions.
He promised not to do it again. He did it again. You can’t just gloss that over.
If he thought it was OK before the police investigated him the first time, he sure as hell learned at that time that it was not OK to do. He did it again. Why would he do it again?
Regardless, you seem to be saying that the only crimes your are sure Jerry is actually guilty of is horsing around in the showers with two boys. Both of whom would later strongly defend him as heterosexual adult men as late as 2011.
If that’s the case, that situation is much closer to “completely innocent” that what Sandusky was convicted of and what the public believes he committed. Under that situation, Sandusky is likely only guilty of misdemeanors, may end up with probation and no jail time, and Joe Paterno never gets fired or shamed.
It all goes back to this for me.
McQueary, upon witnessing "something" calls his dad (not police). His dad says just leave (not stop the incident). After getting to the house, two respected medical professionals well versed in child abuse reporting laws decide that the "something" wasn't serious enough to go to police or child services. It was only serious enough to go tell the football coach about.
Anything after that should have been completely irrelevant.
McQueary, upon witnessing "something" calls his dad (not police). His dad says just leave (not stop the incident). After getting to the house, two respected medical professionals well versed in child abuse reporting laws decide that the "something" wasn't serious enough to go to police or child services. It was only serious enough to go tell the football coach about.
Anything after that should have been completely irrelevant.
The actions that you continually describe don't amount to any sort of crime. The actions that anyone (other than a few sketchy victims) has described don't amount to any sort of crime. Find me a crime that wasn't simply dreamed up in an attorney's office. Not creepiness - an actual crime.
Exactly.. Hindsight is 20/20. This is a bit longer than I had originally anticipated but given the recent developments the picture is becoming clearer and clearer to me... and it takes this level of detail to iron it all out. So bare with me.
I think we all, Penn State fans, College Football Fans, the Media, agree that there is something about Jerry Sandusky that is/was a bit off.
Socially awkward, or maybe just the overall strangeness of why anyone would dedicate so much of his time to kids that were of no relation to him and then "Paling or horse playing around" with them like a kid himself....Yea, it's fairly easy to draw a conclusion that a man accused of child molestation would build that type of an environment to prey on the kids it was supposed to help.
So there you go Fina, you've got a "Michael Jackson" esq. public figure who's always been a bit odd with children, (not genetically his own) maybe playing too rough, or spending too much time with them...
Has anyone ever thought about that? The similarities between Jackson & Sandusky? Remember when MJ was accused of the sleepover incidents, and he dangled that baby, and all the other tabloid garbage?
Wasn't he eventually cleared of all of those charges, but he was also had to pay the victims families I think also a broken home type situation a lump sum? I'm too lazy to look it up, but I remember there being something not right about all of that with MJ.
The 90s man.. lemme tell ya. When the internet arrived in millions of "middle class" homes all throughout the country so did a plethora of information that before the internet.... would have never been known or understood by these citizens. Now all we need to do is reach into our pocket and we have a support group for every kind of bullying, name calling, and of course... sexual molestation. Kids are taught now, that its not okay for that to happen. This topic hasn't always been so easily discussed...
Anyways, you've got Sandusky, who just so happens to be an assistant to a coach who was basically revered to as a "god" like figure statues erected, millions in donations pouring in, the world's second largest arena rises in the Happiest of Valley's.... Okay I'll stop.
You don't think Paterno, a State employee himself, had a few folks in Harrisburg 2 hours south of State College who would absolutely LOVE to get their hands an any bit of incriminating evidence that may destroy Joepa's "god like" image?
.... I think I finally get it...
To Penn State fans Paterno wasn't loved and adored by millions for winning the most football games, it was his ability to do it the perceived "right way" by giving children an education who may have not had that opportunity otherwise.
When you do that for 61 years and you win more games than anyone else, the rest of college football is going to look at that differently if all of a sudden the ring leader is labelled as a "Child Molester Enabler".
Of course Penn Staters are going to stay loyal to the brand Paterno had dedicated his life to building because Pennsylvanians love their football, they love their Nittany Lions, and on college gamedays in the fall they create what some have called the "greatest show in college football." Something Paterno built for over half a century.
Of course ALL of the general public is going to gravitate towards a story that might derail that legacy. Look how we immediately jump to conclusions with MSU & now Ohio State! .... Which MSU we know were factual and DID happen... we shall see with Ohio State...
If Fina's goal was to take down Paterno, he had to find someone who was corrupt under him. Someone who was an integral part of what made the Paterno successful in the first place........... How about the guy in charge of defense.. and let's use the "red-headed step child" to get the ball rolling. Sorry I know that's politically incorrect, but it's true. McQueary is a weasel... and the key to all of this.
How about Sandusky who helped put Penn State on the map. A coach who graduated from Penn State a year before Paterno was even hired as head coach. You could argue that Paterno's success on the football field, was every bit as much Sandusky's as it was Paterno's.
Sandusky was responsible for orchestrating the defensive schemes that ended up winning what was considered (at the time) the game of the century against Miami. A game that Penn State had NO SHOT at winning, and did. Shocking the entire nation, and doing it in a way that stunned the college football world.
Was Penn State even referred to as LINEBACKER U before INTERCEPTED GIFTOPOLOUS!?
This is where, as a Penn State fan, I admit, I might be guilty of incorrectly analyzing the intentions of a man like Sandusky who worked under paterno, who (in my mind) could very well be guilty of being easily picked on for being odd, or someone who stands out in the crowd.
You've got this odd dude, who's not able to have children himself, having grown up in the shadow of his father, who he watched "serve in the field of youth service programs for over 30 years," in the State of PA.
What's the guy do who just graduated from Penn State in 1966, who learned everything he knew from likely his dad, and Rip Engle?
Sure enough Sandusky follows right in their footsteps and chooses a profession, donates what now seems like an odd amount of time to simply helping children in need.
Wasn't it was common (especially for boys in the 1950s and early 1960s to follow the footsteps of their father's taking up a similar profession only doing it better?) That tradition of American culture especially in the Democratic centric cities, has fallen to the wayside, as we have a new generation of "Millennials" who i'd be willing to bet don't do anything similar to what their father's did for a live.
From this perspective, to me at least, It makes a lot of sense why Sandusky chose the coaching profession, and decided to dedicate his time and money to the Second Mile, which contrary to what the media might make you think, was actually a great foundation for kids of need in PA. But once again, was very easily portrayed as being a sick source for Sandusky to get his victims... but why wasn't it ever investigated by the Freeh report?
Side note, I learned quite a bit about "The Second Mile" when I was part of "Bounce Marathon" at Penn State Altoona. For those of you who don't know, prior to 2011, the sororities and fraternities at the Penn State Altoona Campus had their version of THON which was called "BOUNCE". The small Greek community came together and bounced basketballs day and night for a weekend while canning to raise money that was donated right to the Second Mile and during the event we got to meet some of the kids the foundation helped. It wasn't beating cancer, but it was giving a kid a shot at better life when he came from a dump of a situation.
Now in 2018, with the allegations in place, it's easy to pardon the pun "finger" Sandusky as being guilty without a doubt due to his lifestyle without really diving into the facts of the case, and getting an understanding of why he would do such a thing.
If you're accused of something, and the media firestorm sways public perception one way or another before you have a chance to explain yourself, you're climbing an uphill battle because once the public makes up their mind about something, it's incredibly difficult to go back and say.. wait a minute.. everyone, ESPN viewers, sports lovers of America.... we botched this one, hold on.
The riots at Penn State, the firing of Joe Paterno, Sandusky interviewed by Costas "I like showering with kids" or whatever he said, all gets taken out of context when it's coming from someone like Jerry Sandusky who grew up in the 1950s and 60s when times were incredibly different than they were in 2001. ... or 2000, which one was it McQueary?
So did Sandusky do all this to get access to young boys for his pleasure? Maybe...
OR you look at Sandusky AND Paterno, AND Bradley, AND Johnson, AND all the other dedicated coaches on Paterno's staff, and you make the dedication the pinpoint that leads to Paterno's downfall. He stayed too long, had a bunch of guys who had been doing things the same way.. (the right way) for decades, and as the tech wave washed over the world in the 1990s Penn State Football fell behind the times because we were stuck in our ways.
Sandusky & Paterno have both been quoted in saying their father's opinions of their profession meant a great deal to them, so damnit, if its football coaching, we're going to do it right and we're going to be good!
So began their careers trying to appease their fathers, Sandusky by doing the same thing as his dad, Paterno by.... not going to law school...
Both on a mission to create a legacy that would stand after they were gone. Both with the goal of helping kids get an education that for Paterno would lead them to a better life, and for Sandusky a charity that would provide an escape for kids who aren't fortunate enough to have the "American Dream."
If I think about the fact that Sandusky graduated from Penn State in 1966. He would of been a HS grad of 62. This is before the riots at Berkley & Kent State before the drug filled 70s and 80s.. the sexual revolution of the 1990s... I mean That's like 4 decades later!
Just for some perspective. Sullivan County a small school along N 220 in NEPA, where I graduated in 2005 still only has one large room in the boy's locker room where kids can shower. There are no private showers in the men's locker room, it's just one big room with two dozen spigots and two doorways and it's shared by coaches and students alike.
My father who attended the same high school, found it incredibly odd when I was in school that after gym class we didn't shower. I specifically remember a conversation with him asking me how school was, and with my focus on how much I loved gym... I must have mentioned the only part that sucked, was putting on your regular school clothes, after changing out of your "gym" clothes without taking a shower. He thought it was disgusting, and said that when he graduated in 1971 EVERYONE was required to shower after gym class, and the gym teacher literally checked names off a list to ensure the kids had solid hygiene before going back to class. Sandusky graduated HS 10 years before my dad, and grew up in an environment where it was common for grown men to shower around children. When I was in high school, showering wasn't allowed after gym practice, not because of a peeping tom, but because there wasn't enough time. You'd change your clothes, but you'd still be covered in sweat from whatever you did during class that day... I can't imagine doing that now.
When the showers were used was after school, when the basketball and wrestling teams would finish practice at the same time and that small locker room would have 50 dudes who just worked out for two hours in it. My HS was small so legit kids from 7th to 12th grade were all in there together with both head coaches, and some of their staff many of whom were teachers as well as coaches and if not, were parents or volunteers from the community.
On any given school day, there would be 10 adults in that cramped locker room half of which were naked showering with kids 12-18 years old. All of which were the ages that Sandusky has been accused of inappropriate "horseplay" with.
I assume the majority of high school locker rooms all across the country are similar to what I just described, and I'd be willing to bet that nobody looks back at that and thinks it was odd. It was totally normal for those coaches to be in there, because it was all there was.
We're talking about a time in the early 1960s before anyone at the time could even fathom what would happen at Kent state or Berkley or even the historic events of Woodstock.
More specifically, Penn State was ahead of the color barrier in the 1940s with Wally Triplett so the environment that Sandusky was brought up around wasn't part of the revolt culture that sprung up in the mid 60s.
Freedom of speech, and god forbid the freedom of one's sexuality was unheard of when Sandusky was a student himself, which makes the Costas interview, a bit more understandable when you think about Sandusky's upbringing. Both he and Paterno's biggest flaws were their inability to adapt to the changing cultures that sped up exponentially by the end of the 1990s when Paterno had to make a decision, Sandusky had to go.
Didn't Paterno say when Sandusky retired that he spent too much time with the Second Mile Charity? Sure, Paterno had heard some accusations that Sandusky had acted inappropriately but remember, each of those times he was investigated and the issues were resolved. Even still, you know it didn't sit right with Paterno, which was why he didn't want Sandusky to have access to the facilities after he retired. In Paterno's law driven mind, one we grew to know as being loyal, disciplined, and fair.. who was he to accuse Sandusky of being guilty of something he had raised concern about a few years prior, to which his ex assistant had been cleared of all charges?
Prior to the 1970s sex wasn't something that was in the mainstream like it is today. We live in a much different world in 2018. Maybe in the 1960's they whipped each other with towels, horse-played in the showers, I dunno.
But I know when all of this went down, the outrage of grown men showering with teenage boys in public facilities that are... meant for showering... was not an issue.
Ok I'm done.
If we continue to look back, we're lost. For the future that we wait folks... raise that friggin song. If Franklin remains loyal to Penn State, let's just hope he builds a legacy he knows how to walk way from. Unlike his predecessors.
When's App St?
Put me on a jury and the basic fact that he was investigated by police for showering with and having physical contact with a boy while doing so, warned and agreed to not do so again in the future, then was witnessed doing so again a few years later would lead me to guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Put you on a jury to listen to what charges? Breaking a promise? This is the part I don't get w/ you. There need to be actual crimes to put people in jail. You don't seem to want to accept that. Your description of being on a jury is sort of frightening to be honest. Jurors are supposed to examine facts, not preen about their feelings and virtue.
He was naked with a boy (not sure of the age. Somewhere between 10 and 14 I think?) having physical contact while showering together, alone.
I think it is this sort of mentality that led Curley and Schultz to plead guilty to a crime they didn’t commit.
Not true.
Franco, give me an innocent reason for him to be alone in a shower having close physical contact with a child.
What if this hypothetical trial contained the testimony of Allan Myers before he was corrupted by Andrew Shubin for money? No way any reasonable person could vote guilty on any charge.
As I've told you before, this is the same kid that was on trips with him to Orlando, Los Angeles and when he spoke at the AFCA convention in San Fran. This wasn't a random TSM kid he barely knew. AM also testified consistently he was never abused on any of these trips. By coincidence, he later remembered only being abused at Lasch and not on any of those overnight trips.
They had just finished a workout and had worked up a sweat.
You’re being disingenuous. You know I didn’t ask why they would have to shower.
I gave you a completely innocent reason for why they would shower. I am guessing you are specifically asking for an innocent reason why he would make physical contact in the shower referring to the hug he gave in the shower. I believe that Sandusky is a touchy, feely type of person and that the hug was not meant to be sexual. I believe it was meant to be friendly and that he was interested in developing a long term friendly relationship. In fact that is what occurred - Sandusky and v6 has a 13 year friendly, non-sexual relationship.
Bullshit
You seem like an intelligent man. There is no way an intelligent man thinks hugging a teenage boy in the shower is just an innocent, friendly thing to do. No way.
You are welcome to your own opinion. I agree that hugging a boy could possibly be motivation for a sexual relationship. However, when there is no evidence that wasn’t subject to manipulation that he ever had a sexual relationship with anybody other than his wife or that there was ever pornography in his possession, then I think it is entirely plausible that the hug was friendly and not sexual.
It is also time for the Sandusky Innocence Project to stop pretending that 19 men of varying ages showering together like we all did in HS is the same thing as a man and a 12 yo boy showering together with nobody else there. The SIP has managed to take a thread about Frank Fina saying we all think Jerry is innocent, and provide evidence to support that conclusion, which is a slander on the vast majority of us.
You should not find it surprising that I object to being lumped together with you in defense of a sex predator. Obviously you feel no shame about it. Just like Jerry, you have convinced yourself.
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I couldn't care less about JS other than the fact that he needs a new trial for the citizens of PA to live in a non-banana republic.
The celebration of Fina's demise on this thread points directly to that fact, yet none of you acknowledge it. How do you square the two? Fina cheated, but JS didn't get cheated?
You are welcome to your own opinion. What is your opinion of NCIS Special Agent John Snedden? Please identify any credible evidence that wasn't subject to manipulation that demonstrates that Sandusky committed CSA.
Franco, have you ever had contact directly with people involved with pedophelia? Either the victims or perpetrators?
