OT: FYI, JZ says Newsweek article is still a go. (edit: Story now spiked)

[LaJolla Lion]

Again, this was a non issue then and it should be a non issue now. The only reason we know of this incident is because Corbett needed a hook to blame PSU instead of having prying eyes delving into TSM and his relationship with it.

This discussion has sunk to the point of whether or not C/S's meeting with Mike should have been documented? Big whoop! Why the hell aren't we discussing why the BOT intentionally destroyed JVP's reputation and shelled out > $200 million for no damn reason?

You are saying it wasn't a good idea to make a record of this which is idiotic. Of course they should have maintained better records with or without this mess...again this is just common sense stuff to most people indy. Honestly, it's not a vicious attack on them, but there is a reason why people record this stuff. Blame the BOT, Corbett, and whoever else you want to as everyone played a role. That isn't the point, it was a simple point. They botched keeping a good record of what happened here...don't care if you want to deny they ever made a mistake while walking on this planet or not.

 

[SR108]

They didn't plead guilty because they were mandatory reporters. They took the plea because of the bullshit spread by the OAG which tainted the jury pool. Either you are stupid or you are playing coy. Either way, you are full of shit.

Really, Am I?

They plead guilty to child endangerment, based on what? The fact that they did not report what Joe and MM had informed them. Schultz admitted in the Spanier trial that he plead Guilty because they never followed through on reporting to CYS., which was their original plan along with notifying the second mile which they did.

 

[BobPSU92]

Obviously Curley and Schultz were not mandatory reporters.

 

[indynittany]

Yeah, good point. Because a grown man has never had sex with an underaged male.

Who said anything about sex? He was just talking about taking a shower.

 

[Connorpozlee]

The possibility of sex occurring is what makes it wrong. And the indecent exposure. Male or female doesn’t really matter.

 

[indynittany]

Really, Am I?

They plead guilty to child endangerment, based on what? The fact that they did not report what Joe and MM had informed them. Schultz admitted in the Spanier trial that he plead Guilty because they never followed through on reporting to CYS., which was their original plan along with notifying the second mile which they did.

They plead guilty because they were getting railroaded and they knew it! Somebody not named Tom Corbett or Jack Raykovitz was going to take the fall here. Spanier was the target. C/S were the collateral damage. C/S/S were originally charged with 15 felonies and the state whiffed on all 15!

Why aren't we talking about the actual scandal???????

 

[indynittany]

The possibility of sex occurring is what makes it wrong. And the indecent exposure. Male or female doesn’t really matter.

BS! Have you ever heard of people having sex in a car? Is it then wrong for an adult male to give a juvenile a ride?

It's not indecent exposure. It's just a ****ing shower! Show me the sexual intent and you will then have a point. Until then,.....

 

[indynittany]

You are saying it wasn't a good idea to make a record of this which is idiotic. Of course they should have maintained better records with or without this mess...again this is just common sense stuff to most people indy. Honestly, it's not a vicious attack on them, but there is a reason why people record this stuff. Blame the BOT, Corbett, and whoever else you want to as everyone played a role. That isn't the point, it was a simple point. They botched keeping a good record of what happened here...don't care if you want to deny they ever made a mistake while walking on this planet or not.

They could have kept records and it wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference.

 

[AvgUser]

If i copied the right passage from the law, this is the charge to which C&S pled guilty. They were railroaded in to this. None of what appears below applies to them. Why did they plead? Of course, they had no chance at a fair outcome. Spanier's trial decision proved that point.

§ 4304. Endangering welfare of children.

(a) Offense defined.--

(1) A parent, guardian or other person supervising the welfare of a child under 18 years of age, or a person that employs or supervises such a person, commits an offense if he knowingly endangers the welfare of the child by violating a duty of care, protection or support.

(2) A person commits an offense if the person, in an official capacity, prevents or interferes with the making of a report of suspected child abuse under 23 Pa.C.S. Ch. 63 (relating to child protective services).

(3) As used in this subsection, the term "person supervising the welfare of a child" means a person other than a parent or guardian that provides care, education, training or control of a child.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

They could have kept records and it wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference.

You can state that as fact but as much as you want to, it doesn't make it true. If they had MM's actual words and filed a report with a record of that report, the state didn't have a leg to stand on for the witch hunt. That is like saying we have video evidence that someone didn't commit a crime, but it wouldn't have mattered...ok then. A failure to report charge is never brought up if a report is made...try and figure that one out for a second too. Now as a reminder I know they plead out of that and other charges were dropped, but it would have never been there with a report and a record of it.

Now just reply Corbett, BoT, or something else and avoid the topic.

 

[bdgan]

My point being that a lot of things changed after 2001, in terms of how these things were handled. Much of the "mandatory reporting" best practices guidelines didn't happen until 2002.

They seem to have been applied retroactively.

 

[bdgan]

Why did they plead? Of course, they had no chance at a fair outcome.

The plead because a guaranteed slap on the wrist was better than a small chance of a much more severe penalty.

 

[RussianEagle]

If i copied the right passage from the law, this is the charge to which C&S pled guilty. They were railroaded in to this. None of what appears below applies to them. Why did they plead? Of course, they had no chance at a fair outcome. Spanier's trial decision proved that point.

§ 4304. Endangering welfare of children.

(a) Offense defined.--

(1) A parent, guardian or other person supervising the welfare of a child under 18 years of age, or a person that employs or supervises such a person, commits an offense if he knowingly endangers the welfare of the child by violating a duty of care, protection or support.

(2) A person commits an offense if the person, in an official capacity, prevents or interferes with the making of a report of suspected child abuse under 23 Pa.C.S. Ch. 63 (relating to child protective services).

(3) As used in this subsection, the term "person supervising the welfare of a child" means a person other than a parent or guardian that provides care, education, training or control of a child.

They pled because they were afraid of a polluted jury poll and felt they could avoid prison time if they played nice with the prosecution. There really is no other explanation. I know for an absolute fact that both Curley and Schultz strongly believe Sandusky is innocent. Also remember afterward, Laura Ditka basically admitted the OAG pursued tough sentences against C/S/S to stick it to John Ziegler.

 

[roswelllion]

This sounds like the same old Z narrative. Jerry is guilty. People need to accept that and move on. He’s as guilty as the work week is long. You can blame the legal system, political conspiracies or incompetent defense teams, but the fact remains that this all happened because Jerry is guilty of doing awful things.

JoePa, by virtue of what happened, was never going to skate. Yes, he was railroaded and it wasn’t fair, but it was always going to happen. Trying to undo this after the fact has been counter productive and, if anything, has hurt Joe’s legacy.

Disagree, on JVP, TC and GS GS. Look at MSU. 10 times as many victims, just as long a duration, and the guy still worked at MSU. Anybody been charged with anything except Nasser?

 

[roswelllion]

What "does" matter to you? Seriously?

If you were alleged of doing something illegal, would you want someone to commission an "independent" report investigating the alleged crime? A report that never questioned you or the victims or other people supposedly involved in the alleged crime?

This is one of the foremost reasons why our Constitution was written the way it was. Now, consider that it was an academic institution that commissioned the study.

Might be the 1st time i ever agreed with Felli.

 

[marshall23]

They seem to have been applied retroactively.

Yep, ex post facto..........unconstitutional in 49 states.

 

[roswelllion]

I think JS is guilty of doing inappropriate things with kids. I don't think MM saw him rape a kid in the Lasch Building because that would be nearly impossible while standing and MM testified that the boy wasn't in distress. I also don't believe half of the accusers. These are largely low income kids that were promised a big paycheck for changing their story after going through repressed memory therapy.

I also don't think that MM told PSU administrators very much more than inappropriate horseplay. The media and even our legal system would have you believe that MM told things to C/S/P that he wouldn't even tell his own parents or Dranov. That makes zero sense.

Don't get me wrong. C/S handled things very poorly. They didn't even document MM's report or their response. That's inexcusable. I'm even OK with those who say Joe should have done more to follow up. But knowingly allow a pedophile to assault children for more than a decade? That's absurd.

FWIW I think the Nassar situation at MSU is similar. The administration probably didn't take reports seriously and didn't respond to them adequately. No excuse. But I do nit think they knowingly allowed a sex abuser to assault women. Makes no sense.

I agree with most of what you state. Two areas I think i disagree. Nassar, situation. Agree no one would knowingly allow this to go on but the Nassar situation IMO was much worse.
Re JVP, not sure . turned it over to TC and GS, [as he should have] then followed up with MM and asked if everything was okay. He's 72 years old, Jerry no longer works there, he is completely out of his element, so he turns it over to his "boss" and follows up with the accuser. Seems like enough to me.

 

[Connorpozlee]

BS! Have you ever heard of people having sex in a car? Is it then wrong for an adult male to give a juvenile a ride?

It's not indecent exposure. It's just a ****ing shower! Show me the sexual intent and you will then have a point. Until then,.....

It is wrong for an adult male to give a juvenile a car ride if they’re both naked.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

It is wrong for an adult male to give a juvenile a car ride if they’re both naked.

Well it depends...were you warned the first time and kept doing it? You need to play dumb here for indy.

 

[SR108]

Obviously Curley and Schultz were not mandatory reporters.

Well, If true, they had pretty bad legal representation.

 

[Connorpozlee]

Well it depends...were you warned the first time and kept doing it? You need to play dumb here for indy.

It’s absolute insanity.

 

[SR108]

They pled because they were afraid of a polluted jury poll and felt they could avoid prison time if they played nice with the prosecution. There really is no other explanation. I know for an absolute fact that both Curley and Schultz strongly believe Sandusky is innocent. Also remember afterward, Laura Ditka basically admitted the OAG pursued tough sentences against C/S/S to stick it to John Ziegler.

There in lies the problem. It wasn't their place to determine if he was guilty or innocent. All they needed to do was report what was alleged and reported to them. According to the Schultz testimony in the Spanier trial, they, (Curley, Schultz and Spanier), agreed to do three things:

1. Call in Sandusky and have a talk about boundaries as well as telling him he could no longer bring second mile kids into PSU facilities.

2. Notify the Second Mile.

3. Notify CYS

They never did the latter. And that's why they ended up getting burned/"railroaded".

 

[indynittany]

Well it depends...were you warned the first time and kept doing it? You need to play dumb here for indy.

You should ****ing talk!

It wasn't the shower that was the problem. It was that there was some sort of physical contact while naked. But most of all, it was that they were alone! It was a potential he said/he said scenario. Any accusation and Sandusky, along with PSU, were toast.

Let's not forget the long standing and seemingly healthy relationships Sandusky had with both boys well into adulthood.

Why do you continue to follow Corbett's strategy of deflecting attention away from TSM? You know where the real scandal is. You know every single victim came from TSM. You know JR was informed by Curley. You know Corbett's OAG had oversight responsibility for organizations like TSM. You know that Corbett accepted over $650,000 in campaign contributions from people and entities closely tied to TSM. And you probably know better than I do why the PSU BOT felt it was justifiable to create the narrative we're stuck with today, along with the massive damage to PSU that came as a result. What's your motivation here?

 

[indynittany]

There in lies the problem. It wasn't their place to determine if he was guilty or innocent. All they needed to do was report what was alleged and reported to them. According to the Schultz testimony in the Spanier trial, they, (Curley, Schultz and Spanier), agreed to do three things:

1. Call in Sandusky and have a talk about boundaries as well as telling him he could no longer bring second mile kids into PSU facilities.

2. Notify the Second Mile.

3. Notify CYS

They never did the latter. And that's why they ended up getting burned/"railroaded".

But why? They didn't get burned because they did anything wrong. They got burned because Corbett and others wanted them burned. They were set up to take the fall, along with Spanier and JVP. Why?

 

[LaJolla Lion]

You should ****ing talk!

It wasn't the shower that was the problem. It was that there was some sort of physical contact while naked. But most of all, it was that they were alone! It was a potential he said/he said scenario. Any accusation and Sandusky, along with PSU, were toast.

Let's not forget the long standing and seemingly healthy relationships Sandusky had with both boys well into adulthood.

Why do you continue to follow Corbett's strategy of deflecting attention away from TSM? You know where the real scandal is. You know every single victim came from TSM. You know JR was informed by Curley. You know Corbett's OAG had oversight responsibility for organizations like TSM. You know that Corbett accepted over $650,000 in campaign contributions from people and entities closely tied to TSM. And you probably know better than I do why the PSU BOT felt it was justifiable to create the narrative we're stuck with today, along with the massive damage to PSU that came as a result. What's your motivation here?

Go after TSM, but you are the one saying CSS knew nothing, but yet somehow reported otherwise to TSM. You have this ultimate motivation. You cannot even admit CSS made any mistakes. You apparently have no clue on HR reporting. It’s honestly like you have never even heard of this stuff before. If you are a boss and someone comes to you with a report of misconduct, you make a record of this and you are arguing against this.

I have no ties to the BOT or Corbett you dope. If they were less than honest, go get them. I have said dozens of times the BOT and administration f—led this up from the start and made it about PSU. You can say that and say CSS could have done a better job....well you cannot but I am saying that. You’re the one with a relationship here, not me, so quit the deflections.

 

[L.T. Young]

What could they have documented that isn't clearly spelled out by their notes and emails? Had they documented everything, I'm sure that record would have been used to hang them just the same. In fact, I'm sure the prosecution would have used it to prove their dirty "conspiracy".

JVP followed the letter of the law and still had taken away from him what he valued most!

It’s time for you to stop posting for a while. You’re just throwing things out without thinking.

 

[L.T. Young]

BS! Have you ever heard of people having sex in a car? Is it then wrong for an adult male to give a juvenile a ride?

It's not indecent exposure. It's just a ****ing shower! Show me the sexual intent and you will then have a point. Until then,.....

Did you compare showering buck naked with a child to offering someone a ride in an automobile?

 

[RussianEagle]

There in lies the problem. It wasn't their place to determine if he was guilty or innocent. All they needed to do was report what was alleged and reported to them. According to the Schultz testimony in the Spanier trial, they, (Curley, Schultz and Spanier), agreed to do three things:

1. Call in Sandusky and have a talk about boundaries as well as telling him he could no longer bring second mile kids into PSU facilities.

2. Notify the Second Mile.

3. Notify CYS

They never did the latter. And that's why they ended up getting burned/"railroaded".

I don’t disagree. Curley, Schultz, and Spanier admit they should have done more. A CYS or police report would have noted Allan Myers giving them a very similar statement to the one he gave Curtis Everhart in November 2011, Mike McQueary ends up getting in trouble for sending dick pics to a PSU coed, and the charges against Sandusky are dropped in early 2011.

If Sandusky really is innocent, whether or not C/S/S acted appropriately or not is a minor issue in the grand scheme of things. Much bigger issues include the quack therapy of Mike Gillum, the tampering of Allan Myers by Andrew Shubin, the fiction of the leaked Grand Jury Report, the investigators using reverse engineering to conceive witness statements, among many other things.

 

[RussianEagle]

Did you compare showering buck naked with a child to offering someone a ride in an automobile?

Men and boys shower together all the time at the YMCA. True Sandusky was warned in 1998, but that was a boy he barely knew at the time (though ironically they would become good friends afterward). In late 2000, Sandusky had a near father/son relationship with Allan Myers so he knew Allan would not be uncomfortable with them showering together.

 

[indynittany]

Go after TSM, but you are the one saying CSS knew nothing, but yet somehow reported otherwise to TSM. You have this ultimate motivation. You cannot even admit CSS made any mistakes. You apparently have no clue on HR reporting. It’s honestly like you have never even heard of this stuff before. If you are a boss and someone comes to you with a report of misconduct, you make a record of this and you are arguing against this.

I have no ties to the BOT or Corbett you dope. If they were less than honest, go get them. I have said dozens of times the BOT and administration f—led this up from the start and made it about PSU. You can say that and say CSS could have done a better job....well you cannot but I am saying that. You’re the one with a relationship here, not me, so quit the deflections.

I notice you didn't answer the question.

 

[indynittany]

It’s time for you to stop posting for a while. You’re just throwing things out without thinking.

With what we now know, there is simply no justification to call any of this a PSU scandal. This is all about TSM, the OAG, and the BOT. What drove them to do this to PSU?

 

[RussianEagle]

Thanks for your "kind" words. I do appreciate it. I also appreciated when you wished me safe travels when I was coming home from a business trip to China.

In response to your questons:

1. I believe that Sandusky suffers from hypogonadism. My understanding is that his primary care physician diagnosed him with hypogonadism around the 2008 time frame and that he had the condition since puberty. Joe Amendola supposedly had the medical report before trial but apparently didn't understand the significance of being able to use the information to help his client's defense.

2. I believe that Mark Pendergrast's book "The Most Hated Man in America: Jerry Sandusky and the Rush to Judgment" is largely accurate and based on truthful information. It has gotten good reviews from most everybody that has read it (of 54 reviews on Amazon - 50 gave 5 stars and 4 gave 4 stars).

Have you read Mark's book? Do you have any thoughts on any of the content or the accuracy of what he wrote?

One thing I am skeptical about is the claim that Jerry suffered from hypogonadosm since puberty. I am not a doctor, but from little research I’ve done, if he suffered from genetic hypogonadism, I don’t see how Jerry would have grown into a large strong man capable of playing Defensive line at Penn state. I would definitely welcome any more info on this.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

I notice you didn't answer the question.

Well you only notice what is convenient for you, so that is par for the course. BTW you asked multiple questions and once again just deflected away from what I typed. You think nobody at PSU ever made a mistake, well....they did. It may not have been criminal, but simple HR mistakes were made. So simple it is mind boggling for people in those positions no to keep records of this stuff.

 

[LundyPSU]

Men and boys shower together all the time at the YMCA. True Sandusky was warned in 1998, but that was a boy he barely knew at the time (though ironically they would become good friends afterward). In late 2000, Sandusky had a near father/son relationship with Allan Myers so he knew Allan would not be uncomfortable with them showering together.

this nonsense needs to stop

 

[Coveydidnot]

One thing I am skeptical about is the claim that Jerry suffered from hypogonadosm since puberty. I am not a doctor, but from little research I’ve done, if he suffered from genetic hypogonadism, I don’t see how Jerry would have grown into a large strong man capable of playing Defensive line at Penn state. I would definitely welcome any more info on this.

Look at the Pendergast book. The interviews with DS and JS estimate 3-4x per week having sex at least up into 2011. Hardly low sex drive.

 

[wbcincy]

What do any of the folks cheering these moves on hope to accomplish? Do you think the public narrative is going to change? Do you think you're changing anyone's minds? 99.9% of the country has moved on, and couldn't care less what "news" JZ or anyone else presents. It's over, the ship sailed. It may be wrong, and in fact i think it was a tragedy, but it's done, and the bell will never be unrung.

I cant speak for Joe, nor can anyone else, but i sure hope if I'm ever wronged and die shortly thereafter, that those who loved me commit themselves to helping those who are still here, and not in trying to restore my name in vain after I'm already gone.

 

[L.T. Young]

With what we now know, there is simply no justification to call any of this a PSU scandal. This is all about TSM, the OAG, and the BOT. What drove them to do this to PSU?

You seriously need to unplug and think about something else for a bit.

You’re not making logical arguments. You’re just putting blame on anyone other than the sacred cows.

And to answer your question, C/S/S lying about what they knew (98) and when they knew it (2001). That opened the door for all of it.

 

[L.T. Young]

Men and boys shower together all the time at the YMCA. True Sandusky was warned in 1998, but that was a boy he barely knew at the time (though ironically they would become good friends afterward). In late 2000, Sandusky had a near father/son relationship with Allan Myers so he knew Allan would not be uncomfortable with them showering together.

So comparing a ride in an automobile to showering naked and alone with children is reasonable?

Sandusky has never claimed Meyers was the only kid he showered alone with after 98. That’s the only way his relationship with Meyers could be a viable argument.

 

[didier]

1. I believe that Sandusky suffers from hypogonadism. My understanding is that his primary care physician diagnosed him with hypogonadism around the 2008 time frame and that he had the condition since puberty. Joe Amendola supposedly had the medical report before trial but apparently didn't understand the significance of being able to use the information to help his client's defense.

I can't keep track of everything in the courts. Was the fact that Amendola had this medical information and didn't bring it up at trial a part of Jerry's PCRA? Seems like it should have been.

 

[pandaczar12]

The sad thing in all of this, is that Joe reported to his superiors which was what he was supposed to do at that time. His superiors dropped the ball.

Please explain why you give everyone before C/S/S a free pass for doing essentially the same thing they did... report it up the chain to someone they thought was better equipped to handle it. Or why you give the person at the end of the reporting chain at TSM a free pass when he completely dropped the ball?