Been wondering all week what the big 'surprise' will be that turns the tide of this battle back to Dany & Jon..... Is it Jaara Greyjoy showing up with a huge armada of ships? Is it Arya making a huge & devastating strike like taking out Cersei early in the game? Is it more dragons? Is it the Golden Army switching sides?
The way last week went, it seems like all the momentum is on the side of Cersei. We all know something has to be the trigger than changes this momentum. But what is that trigger?
Also. What is Vary's plan on undermining Dany? He definitely is going with Jon, which means he must first undermine Dany.
The way last week went, it seems like all the momentum is on the side of Cersei. We all know something has to be the trigger than changes this momentum. But what is that trigger?
Also. What is Vary's plan on undermining Dany? He definitely is going with Jon, which means he must first undermine Dany.
Yara has to play a role in it. Also Arya heading to King’s Landing with the Hound as well as Jamie on his way. Hmmm. Perhaps a faceless man move vs Cersei, who has been on Arya’s list? Some bad shit gonna go down tonight methinks.
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
Varys's plan IMO will be continually telling Jon, and his supporters, that he's the rightful heir and that he should be King. A really dark version of this would have Varys telling Arya to take Dany out, but I don't think Arya would do that since Jon loves Dany.
Rob McElhenney, It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia guest cameo on GOT. Scene where Theon rescues Yara.
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
I'll add Jaime is the wildcard here. I'm watching last week's episode on HBO and he just gave his 'Everything is for Cersei' speech to Brienne. If he believes Cersei is pregnant with his child, I can't see him killing her. More likely he dies defending her.
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
Queen of the Ashes.
I guess there's one major question that needs to be asked. Was that what I hope it wasn't that Arya was staring at before she got on the horse?
Sets up the finale for Dany coming to an end, but not quite sure if it will be: by Jon’s hand or Arya’s hand. Both are fairly appalled now with the Mad Queen routine. Dany will be loved by no one.
it was the mom and daughter arya was with
You think that was Jon?
I don’t think so.
Really surprised by this. I guess Dany is mad. She had it won and then went crazy. They showed the throne room with no roof and what looked like snow many season ago. Well I thought it was winter when they showed it but nope just ash from a crazy woman. Maybe she wanted to lay waste to the city so no one ever would go there again and she sets up her throne in the east or north. Hmmmm.
I don’t think so.
Really surprised by this. I guess Dany is mad. She had it won and then went crazy. They showed the throne room with no roof and what looked like snow many season ago. Well I thought it was winter when they showed it but nope just ash from a crazy woman. Maybe she wanted to lay waste to the city so no one ever would go there again and she sets up her throne in the east or north. Hmmmm.
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
Wow. Really f'n intense episode. Lots to unpack. For starters, I hate what they did with Dany. She was good. She was generous. She had the best intentions. Then, everything went south, and I can't blame her for losing her sh*t. Honestly - lost her husband, her unborn baby, two dragons, two BFFs, her father, two brothers and well - she snapped. It sucks because I loved her character and that she was this one good thing inside all this crappy stuff, and now she's the bad guy. Like Harvey Dent said - you either die a hero, or live long enough to become the villain. Well, she's the villain I guess. Varys was right to be concerned, but I have to admit - it was so awesome to watch her absolutely let loose on King's Landing and the Red Keep. Sure, they played up civilian deaths to make her seem awful, but Cersei put them there. And Dany called her bluff. I'm certain the show will end with Jon or Arya killing her (maybe Jon convinces Drogon to kill her?), but whatever the case, that was an amazing episode. Good thing there was only one dragon....
Stuff I liked:
- Qyburn's death. Most satisfying of the night.
- Golden Company? Hi - meet Drogon. Bye Golden Company.
- Scorpion bolts sorta suck when they're lit on fire.
- DROGON.
- Dany 'Fear it is.'
- Tyrion's last conversation with Jaime. Man, f'n brutal. Love both of those characters.
- Dany unleashed!
- Jaime and Cersei together until the end.
- Varys's last stand.
Stuff I didn't like:
- Cleganebowl. Yawn.
- Euron's death (?). Just show him dying already!!!
- Arya sort of doing...nothing? Boring.
- Dany as Mad Queen. Boooooo!!!!!!
- Cersei's death. Yawn.
- Overemphasis on civilian deaths. Sorry - King's Landing has had it coming for years.
- No Yara? WTF?
I guess Jon or Arya will kill Daenerys, and I can't blame them. I don't like that ending but this is maybe the most difficult ending in TV history to land. At least with Dany there is some precedent, noting it took a sh*t ton of things to go south for her before she went nuts. I was riveted the whole episode though and will miss that.
Stuff I liked:
- Qyburn's death. Most satisfying of the night.
- Golden Company? Hi - meet Drogon. Bye Golden Company.
- Scorpion bolts sorta suck when they're lit on fire.
- DROGON.
- Dany 'Fear it is.'
- Tyrion's last conversation with Jaime. Man, f'n brutal. Love both of those characters.
- Dany unleashed!
- Jaime and Cersei together until the end.
- Varys's last stand.
Stuff I didn't like:
- Cleganebowl. Yawn.
- Euron's death (?). Just show him dying already!!!
- Arya sort of doing...nothing? Boring.
- Dany as Mad Queen. Boooooo!!!!!!
- Cersei's death. Yawn.
- Overemphasis on civilian deaths. Sorry - King's Landing has had it coming for years.
- No Yara? WTF?
I guess Jon or Arya will kill Daenerys, and I can't blame them. I don't like that ending but this is maybe the most difficult ending in TV history to land. At least with Dany there is some precedent, noting it took a sh*t ton of things to go south for her before she went nuts. I was riveted the whole episode though and will miss that.
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
Her philosophy is the sacrifice now will be worth it for future generations. And she's not entirely wrong.
Spoliers below:
Excellent foreshadowing of the Mad Queen making her turn. Loved how the drama turned from "who will win the battle?" to "who will survive the burning of King's Landing?"
Clegane fight was outstanding. Setting, the circumstances, the way it ended was very fitting.
Euron swimming to the shore was a nice touch I did not see coming, but his fight with Jaime was appropriate.
Cersei and Jaime dying in the rubble was interesting. Dany officially gets credited with the kills, and technically her revenge. Another full circle scene.
Arya and the horse at the end led me to think of this:
"I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him."
Arya will kill Dany. Jon is going to become the reluctant king. He has probably seen enough to despise her, but he can't kill Dany; Arya will.
Excellent foreshadowing of the Mad Queen making her turn. Loved how the drama turned from "who will win the battle?" to "who will survive the burning of King's Landing?"
Clegane fight was outstanding. Setting, the circumstances, the way it ended was very fitting.
Euron swimming to the shore was a nice touch I did not see coming, but his fight with Jaime was appropriate.
Cersei and Jaime dying in the rubble was interesting. Dany officially gets credited with the kills, and technically her revenge. Another full circle scene.
Arya and the horse at the end led me to think of this:
"I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him."
Arya will kill Dany. Jon is going to become the reluctant king. He has probably seen enough to despise her, but he can't kill Dany; Arya will.
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anon_1eeb2b426hv3y
Guest
Dragonstone certainly make sense and I guess they can move the iron throne but who knows. Really surprised she took it that far-seemed to destroy all she sought. It’s whoevers guess now. But great episode.
That was better than the battle against the Night King. Amazing
That generally went as expected. They were playing out that whole "she's gonna crack" inference so heavily during this season that it had to happen. Build her up to be the true golden child, and then lay it on thick with all the justifications for why she's going to snap.
Now I'm wondering if they're going to keep promoting the theme that it all sucks ... and those in power suck. Will they kill off the well-meaning Jon Snow? Or will they just set it up so that he defers power to various lands, hinting that bad things are set up to happen between the various kingdoms. When they kill off Dany, will Sansa step in and they'll hint that she'll be trouble? They can't let the remaining "Starks" live happily ever after.
Now I'm wondering if they're going to keep promoting the theme that it all sucks ... and those in power suck. Will they kill off the well-meaning Jon Snow? Or will they just set it up so that he defers power to various lands, hinting that bad things are set up to happen between the various kingdoms. When they kill off Dany, will Sansa step in and they'll hint that she'll be trouble? They can't let the remaining "Starks" live happily ever after.
I wouldn't say better so much as different. Having the Night King battle at episode 3 took the edge off all of the drama they spent building up. No doubt who was winning there.
This battle had a touch of "how will it go", but it took a turn and led to another bout of drama: who gets out alive? They played the death cards better here as well.
Episode placement means a lot.
Except for the truly psychotic, that's what all evil people say. The ends justifies the means.
One has to wonder if Martin leaves Crazy Dany in power to illustrate just how awful those people who wish to hold power are, and how those who "deserve" power, but don't want it, are trampled on ... but I think they'll off Dany as a quasi-positive moral, only to still leave it with foreboding that the circle of death and destruction is inevitable and will continue.
I don't understand the love for this episode. I guess I care too much about strategy. Once the fleet was gone, all they needed was a siege. It would not have lasted long with all the extra mouths to feed. In five weeks I have done from "I can't believe this is the final season" to "Thank God there's only one more episode."
One of my sons summed it up best when he said once they ran out of original material, they reverted to being television writers.
I am now fearful of what will happen in "Deadwood."
One of my sons summed it up best when he said once they ran out of original material, they reverted to being television writers.
I am now fearful of what will happen in "Deadwood."
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anon_1eeb2b426hv3y
Guest
Maybe the mountain disobeying those who completely controlled him was foreshadowing. So with Jon’s turn from this new mad dany, maybe drogon follows suit but doesn’t kill him and Arya steps in amidst the drama. But that dragon reveal I’ve been so waiting for would be basically a re-do sine they did much the same with the night king. Clearly she must go, but there are a lot of problems with that-starting with the unsullied and Dothraki. Who controls them if not dany? I don’t see them just deciding to follow Jon. UNLESS he’s got Drogon. Otherwise, It’s like welcoming the Huns INTO Rome and expecting them to behave. Without a ruthless leader, could be a dangerous proposition. I don’t see any of the remaining political types following dany, even if her armies do. So do we have a new mad queen ruling? I don’t see it. And I think. They over-baked her ruthlessness. They just didn’t develop the devil inside enough for her to have gone that senselessly terrible.
Whatever happens, This doesn’t seem consistent with GRRM’s writing... had he written...
My wife and I can’t understand why Cersei got such a pass at the end to die a quick death with Jamie holding her. I guess we all expected someone to extract some revenge against her, but realizing to expect the unexpected, guess this was fitting. Assume the revenge was having to watch KL go up in flames and rubble
My son thinks that Bran might be the white horse Arya rode out on.
My son thinks that Bran might be the white horse Arya rode out on.
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anon_1eeb2b426hv3y
Guest
Agreed. Except the siege was done in ten minutes with the surrender. Now she isn’t fit to rule—the charred ashes of what she always wanted and blew up once she had it. She basically did what Jaime stopped her dad from doing, except he was about to lose the kingdom and she’d just won it. Was clumsy. But I did enjoy the episode for what it was. But what it was wasn’t what made the show so great when the directors had a better roadmap—or assuming they still had some roadmap, when they’d followed ithe roadmap.
I will be very surprised if Martin finishes the series.
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anon_1eeb2b426hv3y
Guest
and I’d be surprised if he’s needed for anything that remains. He’s had assistant writers for ages and he’s already delivered the manuscripts. Worst case is they might lack some of his magic. And i doubt that. My money is on whatever hand at the table says he could drop dead and it wouldn’t make any meaningful difference.
We’ll see
Maybe I shouldn't post because I don't want to just be a downer for everyone enjoying it, but I'm afraid I'll be left wishing the show ended with episode 3. I'm starting to wonder if there's a way they could've ended this that I wouldn't have been unhappy with. Maybe the rush to finish is part of what's making it unsatisfying, but just too many things happening I don't like or don't make sense.
Frustrations:
Dany had it won, but she burns the city to the ground anyway? For what? To rule by fear? That will change nothing about people calling for Jon to rule, and in fact will only intensify it, so how did that help? And what was the point of taking the throne, if it's just the throne of ashes. She fights for years to help the innocent, then slaughters a million for no reason when the battle is won. What did the civilians of Kings Landing ever do to her? Ugh, I'm just so tired of the complete lack of logic.
So last episode, Dany flies away from the ships because of the scorpions. After regrouping, the bold new strategy? Fly right into them again just like before. The only difference is this time instead of the scorpions being snipers, it's a TV cop-robber shootout of accuracy. Yawn.
Jamie's character undergoes a transformation over years, seemingly falls in love with Brienne, then suddenly turns right back to what he was again. Just a very sudden turn with no lead up to it.
Cersei's manner of death. Eh. She gets to die in her lover's arms. Kind of sucks when none of her victims got that.
As an aside, why was Bronn even brought back this season at all? Hard to imagine he plays a role next week, so essentially he had two absolutely meaningless scenes out of nowhere this season. Odd.
The Good:
It looked cool. Guess I just expect more than Michael Bay level entertainment from this show.
Frustrations:
Dany had it won, but she burns the city to the ground anyway? For what? To rule by fear? That will change nothing about people calling for Jon to rule, and in fact will only intensify it, so how did that help? And what was the point of taking the throne, if it's just the throne of ashes. She fights for years to help the innocent, then slaughters a million for no reason when the battle is won. What did the civilians of Kings Landing ever do to her? Ugh, I'm just so tired of the complete lack of logic.
So last episode, Dany flies away from the ships because of the scorpions. After regrouping, the bold new strategy? Fly right into them again just like before. The only difference is this time instead of the scorpions being snipers, it's a TV cop-robber shootout of accuracy. Yawn.
Jamie's character undergoes a transformation over years, seemingly falls in love with Brienne, then suddenly turns right back to what he was again. Just a very sudden turn with no lead up to it.
Cersei's manner of death. Eh. She gets to die in her lover's arms. Kind of sucks when none of her victims got that.
As an aside, why was Bronn even brought back this season at all? Hard to imagine he plays a role next week, so essentially he had two absolutely meaningless scenes out of nowhere this season. Odd.
The Good:
It looked cool. Guess I just expect more than Michael Bay level entertainment from this show.
I'm not familiar with the source material - I've only ever just watched the series on HBO. Assuming the previous TV seasons are generally aligned with the books ... in tone, at least ... to me it seems in line with what's transpired so far.
They've been building this narrative of an abused, tormented figure ... she tries to fight the good fight, but inevitably, she succumbs to her demons ... especially when she feels the might of her own power ... and then is wronged (rather than being wronged before obtaining, or while struggling to establish, power). And they also attempted to show that troubled people may consider what is "being wronged" to be different than what a more reasonably well-adjusted might consider.
Martin chose fire and ice. Destructive forces (in varying degrees and to different degrees). Dragons aren't nice. On a whim they can just obliterate virtually anything and everything. That they were going to be the bringers of peace and prosperity seems a bit naive.
One of the things I've enjoyed about this show is that it's not Cinderella. It's fantasy, but not a fairy tale. The girl who's treated badly isn't expected to have good fortune bestowed upon her, only to live happily ever after ... because a lot of times, that doesn't happen.
But I could be way off, because, again, I haven't read the source material. Having this perpetually abused "predestined" woman rise up and lead everyone to peace and harmony just doesn't seem to fit the narrative. Having her snap (just like Greyworm just went back to full militant after he was partially humanized by his "girlfriend") seems more in line with his storytelling, from what I've seen.
I believe she felt the need to torch the city because it’s the only way to get the people of Westoros to accept her as queen. She knew that they didn’t love her, so they had to fear her. Obviously, it was a dumb choice because now everybody hates her. However, the books and show are big on prophecy, especially the self full filling kind. She thinks the only way to rule is through fear, so she instilled fear. That fear will be her undoing.
Another prophecy is about being on guard against a perfumed seneschal, an obvious reference to Varys. The only reason she needed to fear him was if she did exactly what she ended up doing. Vary’s letters in the beginning scene will/should be relevant in the final episode.
