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The most telling thing to me was Jon rejecting Dany after she fried Varys. That was the tipping point for both characters. Jon can’t be cruel and doesn’t want to rule, Dany feels its her destiny. She has no true family except dragons. No one really loves her. She is the outsider and is truly delusional. This pushed her over and she even verbalized”fear it is”. Interesting she uses this philosophy because she truly fears Jon as the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Why she burned everything is no mystery, it is a Pyrrhic victory. A heavy toll is on Dany now due to her response and it will be her demise. The story arc is fine to me. How else should the story end? Not in any happy way for sure (when has there been happiness for Jon?). It will be a bittersweet ending and will be appropriate.
So there will be no ruler of the seven kingdoms in the end and the chaos of humankind will continue to go on and we will all miss seeing characters we have grown fond of over the years. But, hey, good news, Legion’s final season will start soon & we can banter about that!
So there will be no ruler of the seven kingdoms in the end and the chaos of humankind will continue to go on and we will all miss seeing characters we have grown fond of over the years. But, hey, good news, Legion’s final season will start soon & we can banter about that!
She had also just been turned down by the man she loves...pissed off women often want to burn everything down.
First of all I kind of get why Dany made the decision to rule by fear. I think the scene when Tyrion went to her and reported Varys' treason, and Dany's response was that it was actually Jon, told a big clue. Instead of simply taking Tyrion's info and blaming Varys, she revealed that in her mind it traced to Jon.... Jon was the one who told his sisters.... his sisters are the ones who told Tyrion.... Tyrion is the one who told Varys..... She showed her hand right there, that in her mind you can not trust people, those closest around you will conspire against you....
Moving on to next week. The scene I reference above kind of lays out that Dany's next logical target would be Sansa. In that scene between Dany & Tyrion, she acknowledges that Jon said something to Arya & Sansa out of stupid loyalty and his need for honesty. BUT... it was Sansa who used that information against her. She asked Tyrion the rhetorical question "why would Sansa tell him....??". It obviously was that Sansa only told him knowing that he would tell others and eventually the information would be used against her....
So, if the writers on this show followed a "logical arc", Dany's next move would be to eliminate Sansa. In her "crazy mind", she would now see Sansa as her next biggest enemy... someone who always questioned her power, someone who basically said she & the North would not take a knee to her, and someone who conspired to place her brother (Jon Snow) onto her rightful crown.... IF this show & the writers followed logic, then Dany would be heading up to Winterfell as soon as she re-fueled DROGON.
That being said, Jon now sees that he has no choice but to take her out. Jon thru all of his dog like blind loyalty will even realize that Dany is mad, and that Dany will eventually want too eliminate both Sansa & Arya (maybe he needs Tyrion to convince him of this???). Jon will realize that even IF he can live with Dany as his Queen, this will mean that he will need to side with Dany to eliminate his own sisters.... not happening. Tyrion also knows he is screwed as well. He more or less said this in his talk with Jaimie. Tyrion now realizes that Dany is mad, and being on the "untrusted" side of someone who is mad and who has DROGON is not good (see Varys). Tyrion will either side with Jon, and a Tyrion led plot will help Jon, or Tyrion will disappear into hiding. Does Tyrion maybe sacrifice himself to Arya so that Arya wearing his face can get close enough to kill her?????
The writers of this show were in a tough spot. Trying to wrap up GOT -- which was an unfinished series by the author himself -- was difficult. I actually think they did a pretty good job last night of setting up a pretty "clean" wrap up. It really is going to go one of 2 ways:
1. Jon somehow overthrows Dany and reluctantly takes the thrown. The difficulty in this scenario would be having Jon take out Dany in a way in which the Unsullied & The Dothraki don't in turn kill him for killing their Queen. If Jon were to just get close enough to Dany to kill her, then how do they explain the Unsullied & Dothraki accepting this????
OR,
2. Dany ends up getting her wish, she ends up sitting on her precious thrown, but she realizes that she has paid an incredible price and she just goes mad. I could definitely see this show "fading to black" as a crazy Dany sits by herself with her "precious? thrown.
Moving on to next week. The scene I reference above kind of lays out that Dany's next logical target would be Sansa. In that scene between Dany & Tyrion, she acknowledges that Jon said something to Arya & Sansa out of stupid loyalty and his need for honesty. BUT... it was Sansa who used that information against her. She asked Tyrion the rhetorical question "why would Sansa tell him....??". It obviously was that Sansa only told him knowing that he would tell others and eventually the information would be used against her....
So, if the writers on this show followed a "logical arc", Dany's next move would be to eliminate Sansa. In her "crazy mind", she would now see Sansa as her next biggest enemy... someone who always questioned her power, someone who basically said she & the North would not take a knee to her, and someone who conspired to place her brother (Jon Snow) onto her rightful crown.... IF this show & the writers followed logic, then Dany would be heading up to Winterfell as soon as she re-fueled DROGON.
That being said, Jon now sees that he has no choice but to take her out. Jon thru all of his dog like blind loyalty will even realize that Dany is mad, and that Dany will eventually want too eliminate both Sansa & Arya (maybe he needs Tyrion to convince him of this???). Jon will realize that even IF he can live with Dany as his Queen, this will mean that he will need to side with Dany to eliminate his own sisters.... not happening. Tyrion also knows he is screwed as well. He more or less said this in his talk with Jaimie. Tyrion now realizes that Dany is mad, and being on the "untrusted" side of someone who is mad and who has DROGON is not good (see Varys). Tyrion will either side with Jon, and a Tyrion led plot will help Jon, or Tyrion will disappear into hiding. Does Tyrion maybe sacrifice himself to Arya so that Arya wearing his face can get close enough to kill her?????
The writers of this show were in a tough spot. Trying to wrap up GOT -- which was an unfinished series by the author himself -- was difficult. I actually think they did a pretty good job last night of setting up a pretty "clean" wrap up. It really is going to go one of 2 ways:
1. Jon somehow overthrows Dany and reluctantly takes the thrown. The difficulty in this scenario would be having Jon take out Dany in a way in which the Unsullied & The Dothraki don't in turn kill him for killing their Queen. If Jon were to just get close enough to Dany to kill her, then how do they explain the Unsullied & Dothraki accepting this????
OR,
2. Dany ends up getting her wish, she ends up sitting on her precious thrown, but she realizes that she has paid an incredible price and she just goes mad. I could definitely see this show "fading to black" as a crazy Dany sits by herself with her "precious? thrown.
Ok so ranking the battles.
Night battle. Number 1. Just so intense and anxious and so many parts and when the night king raised the dead again everyone was saying... you’ve got to be shi&&en me.
Battle of the bastards 2. Ramsey was very good in that. So dimented and evil.
King landing battle. 3rd. Just seemed so easy to take out all of the arrow cannons. And then Lannister army couldn’t fight at all even when engaged.
Night battle. Number 1. Just so intense and anxious and so many parts and when the night king raised the dead again everyone was saying... you’ve got to be shi&&en me.
Battle of the bastards 2. Ramsey was very good in that. So dimented and evil.
King landing battle. 3rd. Just seemed so easy to take out all of the arrow cannons. And then Lannister army couldn’t fight at all even when engaged.
Dany will try and fry Jon and this will garner loyalty from the Dothraki and others.
The writers were really put in a tough spot when they were forced to put 4 seasons worth of story into 2 abbreviated seasons. This has led to two problems:
(1) teleportation - remember when people marched for weeks between locations, then last season they were in Dragonstone one day and north of the wall the next, with Gendry going for a jog to go back and get help; and
(2) rushed storylines that don't allow believable emotions and decisions. The love of Jon and Dany just didn't develop like it would have over the length of seasons we had seen previously. Nor was there time for Jamie's sudden turn after bedding Brienne. But finally, and most importantly, Dany's turn to mad queen was way too rushed. You can't spend 7 seasons showing us how Jamie has changed, only for him in an episode and half just go back to who he was, nor can you spend 7 seasons showing us that Dany isn't like those before her and actually has empathy and compassion (locking up her children, the dragons, when they're harming innocents), only to have her burn a million innocent citizens when the war is already won, all because...Jon is the rightful heir and turned her down? I just don't buy swinging from breaker of chains to the embodiment of evil so quickly. It was expressed much more eloquently in The Ringer today:
"In the chaos of “The Bells,” the show forgot about the empathy that has been as fundamental to Daenerys’s character as her ruthlessness. She isn’t the Breaker of Chains for nothing. Daenerys used to personally save women from being raped by Dothraki warriors. She freed the Unsullied and countless other slaves. She took Yunkai, Astapor, and Meereen with minimal bloodshed, and she succeeded in creating a better world for the people in those cities. She wanted to rule, yes, but the girl who had spent so much of her childhood being bullied and tormented by more powerful men also knew what injustice was.
What Thrones seemed to be setting up for years was a conflict between Daenerys’s compassion and her dogged pursuit of the Iron Throne. What decision would she make when winning the crown required the loss of thousands of innocent lives? Yet this episode didn’t give us that dilemma. When Daenerys chooses to burn King’s Landing, it’s after the people of the city are ringing the bells and the Lannister soldiers have thrown down their weapons. The war is won—Dany just had to wait a bit for her armies on the ground to (peacefully) mop up before she can finally take the Red Keep. Yet it’s at that moment that Dany decides to lay waste to the city, indiscriminately pointing Drogon at both the Red Keep and innocent families.
It’s tough to figure out why Daenerys does this. As co-showrunner D.B. Weiss explained in the Inside the Episode segment for “The Bells,” Daenerys decides to burn King’s Landing because … she sees the Red Keep. “It’s in that moment,” Weiss says, “on the walls of King’s Landing, when she’s looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, that she decides to make this personal.”
She “makes it personal” by murdering thousands of innocent people that Cersei never even cared about? The same people that Jaime saved from her own father’s rage? None of this clicks.
By demolishing King’s Landing, Dany not only betrays the moral backbone Thrones spent six-plus seasons establishing for her, but she makes her impending queenship more difficult. The survivors of her assault will know exactly who burned their neighbors, friends, and family alive, and Daenerys will have to spend time rebuilding the city. . . .
It’s one thing to be ruthless, as Daenerys has always been; it’s another to be truly cruel and evil. Daenerys’s actions in “The Bells” were the latter. She instigated a completely unnecessary mass killing, a vicious act that is entirely outside her established character. Maybe Dany, who has much of the same foreshadowing in George R.R. Martin’s books, was always destined to become the Mad Queen—it just doesn’t make sense for it to happen without the show demonstrating any internal conflict or nuance. Yes, Daenerys recently lost two of her dragons in Rhaegal and Viserion, two of her closest friends in Jorah and Missandei, and Jon’s affections. All of that adds fuel to her rage, but it’s not clear what sparks it. If Dany had caused so much collateral damage as a byproduct of her quest for the throne, her heel turn would at least have been consistent with her character. Instead, she blindly kills thousands with no clear goal in mind. Say what you will about Dany’s inherent tyrannical tendencies, but murdering innocent children and families in their homes has never been who she is. The broad strokes may have been suggested earlier, but the specifics came out of nowhere.
The long-term questions about how Daenerys will rule in King’s Landing likely won’t matter, as she will almost surely die in next week’s finale. The show seemed to be hinting at Arya fulfilling the role of Queenslayer, but if it isn’t her it will be someone else. Daenerys was losing allies before she went into a blind rage; by next week, even Tyrion and Jon will surely have turned against her.
Given all the foreshadowing, Daenerys’s transformation into the Mad Queen was always a possibility, and there surely were ways to make the turn feel earned. But as she inexplicably laid waste to King’s Landing on Sunday, one thought kept running through my mind: Not like this."
So Dany with pretty much takes down Kings Landing single handed with one dragon. Makes you wonder why she couldn't bring down any other kingdom on her own with three.
I would place Battle Of Hardhome in the top group as well. Hardhome was our first real look at The Army Of The Dead, and the power of the NK to raise the dead.
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anon_1eeb2b426hv3y
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I think she's going to kill Jon first. In her eyes he is the source of treachery and she's been jealous of the way people respect him, which was obvious in the episode before last night. She doesn't love him, she loves his loyalty and loves that he is a good person, as that's what she wants to see in herself. Same with Milesende, she didn't love her, she loved that she obeyed her.
She could have. But the plan originally was to NOT kill thousands of innocent people... she said “**** it” and just went mad queen
She wouldn't have to. Just as she could have taken King's Landing without all of the innocent people dying. One dragon apparently could have taken out an entire army. IMO, the writing has gotten a bit lazy this season to just end the story.
I think the answer to that also is a partial answer to ONE of the reasons she went mad.... She realized bad advice from people she trusted. I think all along Dany knew she could take KL whenever she wanted. But she sided on trying to be "nice", "trusting people" who advised her to "do the right thing". What did that get her??? When she knew 2 seasons ago that she could simply destroy KL, she listened to other people --- the same people who now betray her --- and it cost her 2 of her children/dragons, 2 of her BFFs, and many of her loyal soldiers.
Remember, Dany had to be talked out of her plans to destroy and take over KL a few seasons ago. She agreed. She compromised.... this all led up to her going crazy.
Pretty depressing overall. Turns out there are only two decent characters in the end, Tyrion and Jon. Both picked the wrong horse. Tyrion has to be in trouble after freeing Jaimie. Jon is most likely sickened by what happened. Would not be surprised if he gets on his horse and joins the free people in the far north. I still don't see him as the king and betraying Dany. If that happens, someone else will do the dirty work. It won't be by force, Dany out guns the north with the dragon, Unsullied and Dothraki forces. Arya probably. but without Jon's consent.
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This is exactly where my head was.
1) She could have flown in at night and taken out the wall of scorpions and ships. No one would see it coming.
2) So after years of wanting to be on the throne for the people- she massacres all the people and the entire city? Why would she do that unless she is just insane too?
3) Kind of an unfulfilling way for Cersei to go out. Agree about Jaime too- thought he turned the corner.
4) Bronn has no point now. Jaimie is dead supposedly, unless they are laying under rubble0 and Cersei is dead.
5) And I can't quite figure out the whole Arya character. I keep thinking at some point the whole Assassin Faceless man I'm a badass thing will be put to use, but she seemed pointless in that episode. Maybe she will take out Dany, I almost keep thinking she's not really Arya- guess we will find out.
It was the little horse toy that the little girl Arya tried save was carrying.
I could see Jon telling Dany that he is not a threat, he has had enough of this crap, he never wanted the throne, he does not want the throne .....and he is going to get on his horse and go live up north with the free people for the rest of his life ...... EXCEPT .... he would be leaving Bran, Sansa and Arya at the hands of Dany. He would know that this would seal their fate and he'd be signing their death warrants.
My prediction is that Tyrion reaches Jon. After seeing her go mad, it is not difficult for Tyrion to now do what Vary's could not do, and that's convince Jon that he needs to eliminate Dany. Tyrion simply tells Jon that Dany sees not just him as treasonous, but also sees Sansa as treasonous. And the only way he can save Sansa is to eliminate Dany. Jon now sees things differently, and he agrees. My only question is "how does he do this in a way that also changes Unsullied & Dothraki loyalty to him" ??? My guess is that in order to get to Dany, Jon will have to first take out Greyworm. I definitely can see a Jon vs. Greyworm battle. But I think it's obvious that Greyworm will be defending her to the very end.
So, if Dany and Jon die, who has the best claim to the throne? Gendry Barratheon. With Arya taking some advice from Clegane about revenge and what it does to someone, she just might reconsider her future with Gendry. Then Robert gets his wish about his and the Stark family ruling.
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
I will say Dany flying straight into the fleet seemed to be strategic - not only was she coming at them at full speed from a steep angle, she seemed to have the sun behind her. Note Euron and others having to squint and shade their eyes when looking up. Additionally, Drogon flying full speed with knowledge of where his targets are is much more effective than getting shot at and circling back. No big issue here for me - once he started blowing everything up, it was over.
This episode was a complete jump the shark episode for me. IMO, it has made the series go from one of the best of all time to middle of the pack. After investing years into the show and watching some great character development, this episode officially flushed all that character development down the toilet. By itself, the episode was entertaining and had great affects. However, the downfall of Dany from one of the best characters to the worst didn't come off as believable. It was way too forced. For 7 1/2 seasons, Dany has used her dragons to stand up for the weak. In one moment after she achieves what she has been striving for, she flushes it down the toilet? Whatever.
Unlike Breaking Bad, where the character development from good to breaking bad was simply amazing, the writers of this show were unable to accomplish the same for Dany in a believable manner. Although Game of Thrones started out in the rarefied air of Breaking Bad in terms of all time great shows, IMO it has fallen well short of the standards necessary to keep it at such a level.
If this is the plot line that the books are trying to achieve as well, I can see why it is taking so long to write. I can imagine that Martin is having problems making the precipitous down fall of Dany believable.
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
BB is overrated IMO but that’s another discussion. Agree with your points are Dany.
I'd have to think Arya plays a part in Dany's death before she goes off to settle with Gendry.
I don't think it's going to take any convincing of Jon. He and Tyrion just had to witness that Varys was right, and they allowed it to happen. Just as Dany told Jon he's as responsible for Varys death as her, he knows he's just as responsible for what happened to everyone in Kings Landing as her. I don't think we'll see Jon or Tyrion together with Dany for any scene again (other than a fight), they all know they're each others' enemies now.
To be fair, she did use her assassin skills to kill the Night King.
Blasphemer!
Kinda thought that was going to happen last night. That look that Greyworm shot him once they were inside the city made me think he might have had orders to kill Jon during the chaos.
I think it would have been better and more believable if Dany's breakdown was more nuanced. If, after the bells rang, Dany still flew the dragon to the Red Keep and torched Cersei and everyone in the Red Keep, it would have been a more believable and nuanced approach to Dany's breakdown. I simply do not believe it was in Dany's character to torch hundreds of thousands of women and children who had done nothing to her whatsoever.
I also agree about BB being over-rated. Not to hi-jack the thread, but I've tried numerous times to get "hooked" on BB with a binge watch and I can never get past about half-way of season 2.....
But that's another thread.
RE: Dany's downfall. I am not as skeptical of others. I think it's been building. I think when you add up everything she has seen and gone thru over the last 8 years, I think the news that the people closest to her are plotting against her, was enough to make her snap. Remember, in 8 years she has seen the worst of people. She originally sold by her brother as a sex slave to Drogo, but that changed when she actually fell in love with him. She freed slaves only to have them come to her and tell her that they actually preferred being slaves and her freeing them made things worse. She saw slave owners. She did free the unsullied, but there is the human element of how the unsullied actually became "unsullied". She thought all was good with Jon and going up to help the North in a fight for good a fight for life, and she experiences catty distrust from Sansa Stark. She sees two of her children/dragons killed while trying to do what was right in a fight to help people. ...... I looked at her going crazy as FINALLY snapping. I thought that scene last night was great when she was sitting on top of DROGON and the bell was going off. What I took from that was that when she heard the bells chiming she did not hear bells declaring peace and surrender, but she associated those bells with another plot of where people she trusted schemed around her back. I think those bells where the trigger that set off 7-8 years of built up crazy.
Disagree. Bron said he only needed one Lannister and also that his fighting days are over but not his killing days. He and Tyrion made a deal for Highgarden after the battle was over. He's owed a debt and I'm sure he'll try to collect from Tyrion. This of course puts Tyrion in an even worse spot because he betrayed Dany by freeing Jaime.
Greyworm went mad as well when his girlfriend lost her head. It has to be Arya.
Did what’s his face send out ravens before he was caught about Jon’s real indentity? Did several go out already that they didn’t show?
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
It's basically Dany, Grey Worm, and Drogon now. She doesn't have any friends or allies anymore; just subjects and servants. Terrible what they did to her character but the end is near.
I think she and Drogon will die, but show may end with birth of other dragons.
1. Arya kills Danny... leaves to live her days with Gendry
2. Jon abdicates the throne to Sansa because he never wanted it... goes North of the Wall to live with the free folk... Sansa moves the Iron Throne to Winterfell
3. Tyrion remarries Sansa, relinquishes High Garden to Bronn
4. Brienne remains in Winterfell as Protector of the Queen
5. Yara returns and swears the Iron Fleet into service of the new Queen
6. Dothraki return across the sea
7. Greyworm swears fealty to Sansa
8. Bran becomes a white tree
2. Jon abdicates the throne to Sansa because he never wanted it... goes North of the Wall to live with the free folk... Sansa moves the Iron Throne to Winterfell
3. Tyrion remarries Sansa, relinquishes High Garden to Bronn
4. Brienne remains in Winterfell as Protector of the Queen
5. Yara returns and swears the Iron Fleet into service of the new Queen
6. Dothraki return across the sea
7. Greyworm swears fealty to Sansa
8. Bran becomes a white tree
Cersei is where his heart has always been. Bedding Brienne is zero inclination of love. Go back to his comment: "I've never slept with a knight." He's a man. Not as despicable as the one who pushed Bran out of a window, but one nonetheless.
It was preconceived. Proven by grey worms actions and the silent nod they shared when Tyrion was pleading for mercy if the bells were rung.
I meant in seasons past, the plan was not to destroy the city and kill innocent people. ... not this episode
Desperation and loss of sanity mean a lot. When she first gained the three dragons, she had no skill riding then nor fighting with them. She progressively got better, more dangerous.
Additionally, it was the first time she didn't care about any outcome beyond winning. Reservations held her back. Missandei's death, loss of a second dragon, Jon getting the adoration of the people, his claim to the throne in the back of her mind... I thought it set up well.
I think you laid out the logic behind her breakdown as well as it can be laid out. I am still finding it hard to buy that this person who has spent her entire life (and up until the last episode) standing for the weak all of the sudden decides to unnecessarily kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people who have done nothing to her.
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You said she went "f it". F it implies spur of the moment, it's not exactly a drawn out action.
