OT: Game of Thrones S8E5 - 'The Bells’ - Discussion Thread....

[Kiber]

I was shocked by the social media outrage. It suggest to me that people haven't been paying attention (this story was never going to have a happy ending and there have been plenty of hints about Dany "breaking bad"). Or maybe my view is different because I've read the books.

I get the criticism that this season has felt rushed (it has), but where we've ended up is pretty much where I thought we'd end up (on a macroscale anyway).

I also am OUTRAGED at the "hot taeks" that I've read that the writers are biased against females because of Dany's story arc. The show has a ton of strong female characters with nuanced story arcs that highlight there character development. Not all female characters have to be presented in a positive light (just as not all male characters have to be presented in a positive light).

Those attacks that this show is biased against women are just ridiculous. A few weeks ago in the Battle vs. The Dead, you could argue that the 4 strongest & best fighters for The Living were all women: Danny, Arya, Brienne and Melisendre (Red Witch). Without those 4 WOMEN, they lose that battle.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

I was shocked by the social media outrage. It suggest to me that people haven't been paying attention (this story was never going to have a happy ending and there have been plenty of hints about Dany "breaking bad"). Or maybe my view is different because I've read the books.

I get the criticism that this season has felt rushed (it has), but where we've ended up is pretty much where I thought we'd end up (on a macroscale anyway).

I also am OUTRAGED at the "hot taeks" that I've read that the writers are biased against females because of Dany's story arc. The show has a ton of strong female characters with nuanced story arcs that highlight there character development. Not all female characters have to be presented in a positive light (just as not all male characters have to be presented in a positive light).

But it was!! Jon is the force to unite the families and the realm - he's the literal 'Song of Ice and Fire.' The good guys took so many losses for the first half of the series I think everyone was hoping they payoff at the end would be their ultimate victory. Instead, it's the two most popular characters pitted against each other.

I think another issue with Dany's rushed storyline is that if they did it more blatantly earlier, Varys and Tyrion would have likely bailed or plotted against her.

My only issue with the handling of female characters was that they went out of their way to make Cersei sympathetic before her death and amped up how instantly evil Dany is in the same episode. Cersei deserved a better death.

 

[ewb75]

Agree, noting Ned is only considered a 'moral compass' because we didn't see what he did during Robert's Rebellion.

Yeah… moral compass is used loosely here. Kind of like the one eyed man is king in the land of the blind. He was the best we had at the moment. lol

 

[KnightSlayer]

Completely agree on the 5 minutes of love for Brienne. If this was how the story was going to go, then him knighting her out of respect was the perfect way to conclude their relationship. Having them sleep together just made his overnight turn odd. Unless it was, "I can be banging Lena Headey and I just did that instead?...time to head home."

I would have rather she hooked up with Tormund.

 

[Kiber]

But it was!! Jon is the force to unite the families and the realm - he's the literal 'Song of Ice and Fire.' The good guys took so many losses for the first half of the series I think everyone was hoping they payoff at the end would be their ultimate victory. Instead, it's the two most popular characters pitted against each other.

I think another issue with Dany's rushed storyline is that if they did it more blatantly earlier, Varys and Tyrion would have likely bailed or plotted against her.

My only issue with the handling of female characters was that they went out of their way to make Cersei sympathetic before her death and amped up how instantly evil Dany is in the same episode. Cersei deserved a better death.

Good points. But over the last 6 or 7 seasons, the character portrayed by Danny was one who was almost insanely driven to be on the throne. How many times over the last 6 or 7 seasons did we hear her say something like "I am the rightful ruler" or "I am the rightful Queen". How many times did she show a power ego and demand people to kneel before their Queen. How many times did she get upset when she thought people did not show her the proper respect as the "rightful Queen" ...... Heck, how long was her freaking title???

My point to all of that is that the character build up of Danny over the last 6-7 seasons, more or less meant that there was not going to be a happy ending marriage between Jon & her. Like you said, Jon is basically the title "Song of Ice & Fire". That title is reference to Jon.

So we have the two major characters with ultimately colliding story lines. On one story line is the main character. He is the "Ice and Fire" and he is the true rightful heir. He is "Ice and Fire". But on the other major story line is Danny who has the power of 3 dragons, the power of mighty armies and is obsessed with being the true heir to the throne .............. These were ultimately 2 colliding story lines.

 

[KnightSlayer]

Can't cite chapter and verse. But from all I've read/seen from other GOT nerds, etc., I think the evidence is compelling and its something the directors ended up taking for granted--maybe the way they did lots of things with this late compression of stories.

Directors made clear only a Targ can ride a dragon in S8 after Jon rode one. It was proof Jon was Targ. How was it not proof that NK was. He rode one in in S7. The Targ connection seems more compelling than his ruling whatever dead he rises. Because the rule is only a Targ can fly one. So only 3 characters can. All Targs.

Couple that with him being an exception to one of the few known rules re: killing the White Walkers. They can be killed by V-steel (dragons are from Valeria), dragon glass (which he was born from, when changed from living human) and fire. I expected that if he was to be torched by a dragon in that battle that he wouldn't be burnt. And that's what happened. Not all Targs can survive fire without being burnt, but only a Targ can do it. ALso ties with what Dany said when her brother was killed by fire/molten gold. A dragon (a Targ) can't be burnt--that was before she went unburnt. Didn't say he wasn't a Targ, but said he wasn't a Dragon, which is a Targ-thing as much as the dire wolves are a Stark thing.

The whole show turns on the Targs and Starks, which seemed clear to me since the beginning. Fire and Ice is Targ and Stark, which was obvious about Jon from the first few books. Of course Ned didn't have a bastard. Also, even the NK's sigil is reminiscent of the Targ symbol, which swirls. And Jon and Dany found the NK's sigil in the caves in Dragonstone (of all places), which is where the Targs were from. Sure, it may have been just a reference to the enemy but I'm comfy the enemy was more related than just some random human tied to a tree and stabbed with dragon-glass.

It's interesting that this is the first time I've questioned it for years. Sorry I can't come up with a better answer if this isn't convincing. Others may have their theories and a simple search will show arguments for/against. But until I see something in GRRM's works that directly contradicts it, I'll continue to take it for granted just like the directors.

From https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Night_King

The Night King was a First Man who was captured by a tribe of the Children of the Forest. Leaf, who was among the group, pressed a dragonglassdagger into his chest, causing his eyes to turn blue and turning him into the first of the White Walkers. Thousands of years later, Leaf tells Bran Stark that her people created the White Walkers to defend themselves when Westeros was invaded by the First Men, who were cutting their sacred trees down and slaughtering the Children of the Forest. However, the White Walkers soon turned on their creators and began what was known as the Long Night.[1] Though the Long Night ended upon the First Men and Children's victory in the War for the Dawn, the Night King survived and retreated with the rest of his forces to the Lands of Always Winter, where they hid as they faded into legend and obscurity.

 

[PSU2UNC]

From https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Night_King

The Night King was a First Man who was captured by a tribe of the Children of the Forest. Leaf, who was among the group, pressed a dragonglassdagger into his chest, causing his eyes to turn blue and turning him into the first of the White Walkers. Thousands of years later, Leaf tells Bran Stark that her people created the White Walkers to defend themselves when Westeros was invaded by the First Men, who were cutting their sacred trees down and slaughtering the Children of the Forest. However, the White Walkers soon turned on their creators and began what was known as the Long Night.[1] Though the Long Night ended upon the First Men and Children's victory in the War for the Dawn, the Night King survived and retreated with the rest of his forces to the Lands of Always Winter, where they hid as they faded into legend and obscurity.

Also, there is no Night King in the books. This is an invention of the show.

 

[PSUcup1]

I would have rather she hooked up with Tormund.

Agreed

 

[MoyerJones]

Not sure how the books will go but I think it was a big mistake not having the final showdown with the Night King. Either the kingdoms should have banded together and let him advance more or the kingdoms were settled by conflict then left to face the Night King. I didn"t like how they tied up ANY of the storylines last episode. Great visuals, terrible storytelling. Probably makes me more interested for the books to complete in the hope GRRM has a better conclusion than what we got from TV.

Disagree. You guys must not visit too many other GoT boards/resources. Or pay attention to twitter.

^^This. I think they/we hyped Dany up too much during the series' downtime. Apparently Dany is far more brutal in the books? (IDN bc I haven't read the books) The Night King not being in the books and it being hard to conceive of the show becoming a medieval Walking Dead seemed unlikely, but they also hyped GOT with the zombie aspect. I didn't start watching until a few years ago, and having known very little about the show, I just kept asking, "When are they going to fight the White Walkers?"

....I also am OUTRAGED at the "hot taeks" that I've read that the writers are biased against females because of Dany's story arc. The show has a ton of strong female characters with nuanced story arcs that highlight there character development. Not all female characters have to be presented in a positive light (just as not all male characters have to be presented in a positive light).

^If you are looking for more outrage - there are TONS of so-called "serious" people complaining that it was racist/sexist for the writers to: (1) portray the Dothraki's the way they did; (2) send the Dothraki first in the Battle of Winterfell; (3) make Sansa strong only after she suffers Ramsey's abuse; (4) make Dany the mad queen. (They completely ignore the fact that pretty much every male battle commander made enormously bad mistakes, Jon is pretty dumb, oh and the hero so far is a 5ft female teen assassin.

...I think another issue with Dany's rushed storyline is that if they did it more blatantly earlier, Varys and Tyrion would have likely bailed or plotted against her...

^Handling Varys at the beginning of Ep 5 was Exhibit 1 of this whole thing being rushed. (Not that I have a problem with it, but it's just a fact that they are rushing through it.)

 

[anon_1eeb2b426hv3y]

From https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Night_King

The Night King was a First Man who was captured by a tribe of the Children of the Forest. Leaf, who was among the group, pressed a dragonglassdagger into his chest, causing his eyes to turn blue and turning him into the first of the White Walkers. Thousands of years later, Leaf tells Bran Stark that her people created the White Walkers to defend themselves when Westeros was invaded by the First Men, who were cutting their sacred trees down and slaughtering the Children of the Forest. However, the White Walkers soon turned on their creators and began what was known as the Long Night.[1] Though the Long Night ended upon the First Men and Children's victory in the War for the Dawn, the Night King survived and retreated with the rest of his forces to the Lands of Always Winter, where they hid as they faded into legend and obscurity.

Huge spoiler alert!!!!

Right. That’s the history, known from early on. Nothing new there. And I began a thoughtful response but found my self unsatisfied by an assumption (or maybe more deduction) I’d made, which the whole thing was based upon.
So I did a little research to confirm Targs were among the first men. I regret even that’s unclear one way or the other and (depending on how reliable the otherwise seemingly authoritative AWOIAF wiki is) may have exposed a disappointing inconsistency within this saga.

The Targs left Valeria before the Doom, which was way WAY WAY after the NK was created. That didn’t preclude NK from being a Targ who left earlier. But when reading about House Targ and their departure before the Doom, I was shocked to see the Targs were “the only family of dragonlords who survived the doom of Valyria.” So maybe surviving fire AND riding dragons, two things that conclusively distinguished Targs aren’t (or at least weren’t) as unique to Targs as presented.

So my mind is now blown! I’ll admit I haven’t read Fire and Blood, but that was only Targ history for 300 years before ASOIAF. So at this point it’s fair to say I’m swimming in deeper water than I’m prepared for. My certainty in the NK’s background is now shaken. But since “rules” that seemed steadfast tenets of the saga now seem more fluid, I guess there’s at least some basis for doubting that surviving fire is only a dragon or Targ thing AND riding dragons is only a Targ thing. Maybe the NK was an exception to both rules—and maybe all rules? But this is also my first opportunity to question the seemingly conclusive evidence that Jon must be a Targ because he rode a dragon. We have to still take that for granted and Bran and history books and knowledge of Ned Stark, etc give credence. And honestly, I don’t want to think about this for a second more.

But what I was sure I knew is certainly now in doubt.
EDIT: since posting, I learned through the same wikis that the only remaining dragon riders are Targs. And I now doubt the first man who became the NK was the oddball early-arrived Targ. Who knows.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Ratings News - 18.4 million viewers, new record. Over 43 million with DVR and streaming. Wow.

 

[anon_1eeb2b426hv3y]

I would have rather she hooked up with Tormund.

Ha! But banging Tormund doesn’t carry the chance of creating a new heir for House Lanister.

 

[wb95thebeav]

Crazy theory
Everything that has played out so far is by design of the Children of the Forest. Their creation of the Night Walkers and Others has nearly decimated the greatest army Westeros has ever seen. The remnants of that army then wipe out the Lannester army and the Golden Company. After Dani and Jon fight over the spoils, they will weakened to a point where the Children can come out of hiding and reclaim Westeros. I always felt there was more to the Howlan Reed story. According to the books the crannogmen are close with the Children. Together they will win the game of thrones.
CHAOS IS A LADDER

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Not really related to 'The Bells', but was watching S1E10 last night and found a few items really interesting:

1. Varys visits Ned in the cell and asks him to order Robb to call off his army because Varys is more interested in peace for the realm (with Joffrey as king?!). He tries to use Sansa and Arya as incentive for Ned, but Ned says 'F that'.'

2. The deal to cross the Trident brokered by Catlyn Stark included - Arya marrying a Fray, Robb marrying a Fray, and Robb taking on a Fray as a squire.

3. Shae is introduced in the episode; Bronn finds her for Tyrion. They play the truth/drinking game featured this year between Tyrion, Brienne and Jaime.

4. Another situation we see repeated later in the series happens when Robb captures Jaime. Jaime offers to fight Robb one one one to 'end the war' - using whatever weapon Robb wants - but Robb refuses, just like Ramsay refused Jon's similar offer before Battle of the Bastards.

5. The Night's Watch stuff is infinitely more entertaining to watch when you know how things eventually go. This episode had Jon meeting Aemon Targaryen, and getting Longclaw from Lord Mormont. Jon looks like a baby in these episodes.

Another stark item of note is how sort of positive everyone is. Tyrion is funny and charming, even when he's ordered to the front lines by his father. The doom and gloom that has set over the show is really, really lacking in S1.

 

[PSU2UNC]

Not really related to 'The Bells', but was watching S1E10 last night and found a few items really interesting:

1. Varys visits Ned in the cell and asks him to order Robb to call off his army because Varys is more interested in peace for the realm (with Joffrey as king?!). He tries to use Sansa and Arya as incentive for Ned, but Ned says 'F that'.'

2. The deal to cross the Trident brokered by Catlyn Stark included - Arya marrying a Fray, Robb marrying a Fray, and Robb taking on a Fray as a squire.

3. Shae is introduced in the episode; Bronn finds her for Tyrion. They play the truth/drinking game featured this year between Tyrion, Brienne and Jaime.

4. Another situation we see repeated later in the series happens when Robb captures Jaime. Jaime offers to fight Robb one one one to 'end the war' - using whatever weapon Robb wants - but Robb refuses, just like Ramsay refused Jon's similar offer before Battle of the Bastards.

5. The Night's Watch stuff is infinitely more entertaining to watch when you know how things eventually go. This episode had Jon meeting Aemon Targaryen, and getting Longclaw from Lord Mormont. Jon looks like a baby in these episodes.

Another stark item of note is how sort of positive everyone is. Tyrion is funny and charming, even when he's ordered to the front lines by his father. The doom and gloom that has set over the show is really, really lacking in S1.

"Another stark item of note"
I see what you did there. Clever ;-)

 

[91Joe95]

One thing keeps bothering me about Varys. He's accused of poisoning Robert Barratheon's Hand (offscreen) in season 1, as an indicator that he was trying to poison Dany now. But why would he poison the Hand, or even want to destabilize Robert, who as far as I know wasn't known as a bad king. Why would he want to destabilize Westeros when he cares so deeply about it?

 

[PSUcup1]

One thing keeps bothering me about Varys. He's accused of poisoning Robert Barratheon's Hand (offscreen) in season 1, as an indicator that he was trying to poison Dany now. But why would he poison the Hand, or even want to destabilize Robert, who as far as I know wasn't known as a bad king. Why would he want to destabilize Westeros when he cares so deeply about it?

Hmmm.... I don’t recall varys being accused of poisoning Jon Arryn. The Lannister’s were accused of it but it was actually Littlefinger and Lysa Arryn.

And Robert while not viewed as an evil king, was known to be a terrible king in terms of actually ruling the country.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

One thing keeps bothering me about Varys. He's accused of poisoning Robert Barratheon's Hand (offscreen) in season 1, as an indicator that he was trying to poison Dany now. But why would he poison the Hand, or even want to destabilize Robert, who as far as I know wasn't known as a bad king. Why would he want to destabilize Westeros when he cares so deeply about it?

It was Littlefinger and Lyssa as PSUcup1 noted. Littlefinger did it a) to throw Westeros into chaos, and b) to somehow nab Catlyn Stark in the process (noting Sansa isn't a bad substitute). Mostly worked.

 

[tboyer]

Not surprised the Golden Company didn't last long. They were clearly set up to be a paper tiger, and looked like buffoons standing there in their fancy armor.

Dany's got to die but how will it happen? There is no military threat left; it will have to be an assassination or suicide. Maybe she will sober up after her mass-murderer phase and the guilt will make her lock up her dragon and take her own life. Or maybe someone assassinates Drogon and when he dies, Dany dies.

John doesn't want to be King so he won't be. It's got to be Sansa now, and if it is, the newly reinforced bond between Sansa and Tyrion was not by accident.

With maybe 90 minutes left they can't possibly wrap up all the loose ends with all the characters, unless they do a cheesy voiceover epilogue or something. Some of these characters (Bronn? Brienne?) we may not see again unless it's some group shot for a final coronation.

2) Burning the city to the ground advances the story. If she doesn't, the next episode is pretty much a coronation. Now, Jon has to make a decision about where his loyalties lie: with Dany (his love) or with his family (Starks). Go back to the scene with Arya and Jon reunion where she reminds of being loyal to family.

3) I disagree Arya was useless. The Hound showed Arya the price to be paid for vengeance. He likely not only saved her physically but also emotionally as she was trying to save others. The writers always said she was used to show the destruction through a character we care about. Otherwise, just a bunch of extras dying.

4) Wow, the golden army certainly didn't last long. Surprised that this battle went down so quick.

5) The Mountain turned out to be Frankenstein. He just wouldn't die.

6) We found out the girl was spying for Varys and not Quyborn.

7) Yes, I was entertained. Another great episode. I can understand the criticisms of last episode, but I think this season has been epic.

Some loose ends:

(a) DId Davos deliver on the favor asked by Tyrion? Was it only to have a boat ready for Jaime or something else?
(b) Did Varys send his notes and to whom? He burnt one but not others.
(c) If prophecy is true, Dany will not sit on the throne per her vision. She will die and join Drogo.
(d) Will Bronn and Yara show up? They kind of have been written out of show with Bronn saying this isn't his fight and Yara attacking other lands.
(e) Brienne, Gendry and others still in the North. Does Jon somehow turn the North against Dany? I know the wildlings are heading north of the wall and seemingly out of the picture, but who knows.
(f) What becomes of Greyworm? He doesn't want to remain in a foreign land and stated he will stay until Dany's enemies are defeated. Can't imagine the Dothraki wanting to stay in Westeros either.
(g) Is Bran's and Sam's storyline finished? Or do they have a role in the finale?

My prediction is that Tyrion will rule,with Sansa, and they will introduce some version of democracy. Sam, Yara, Bronn and Gendry will be part of some democratic council as heads in the respective areas.

Jon will either head north or maybe even kill himself with grief. Arya will kill Dany via change of face. She will become a lone crusader for the downtrodden.

 

[91Joe95]

Hmmm.... I don’t recall varys being accused of poisoning Jon Arryn. The Lannister’s were accused of it but it was actually Littlefinger and Lysa Arryn.

And Robert while not viewed as an evil king, was known to be a terrible king in terms of actually ruling the country.

It was Littlefinger and Lyssa as PSUcup1 noted. Littlefinger did it a) to throw Westeros into chaos, and b) to somehow nab Catlyn Stark in the process (noting Sansa isn't a bad substitute). Mostly worked.

I'm thinking of Ned Stark before he lost his head.

 

[Ranger Dan]

Interesting facts:

https://twentytwowords.com/mindblow...content=GOT+Facts+5+-+R10>1.25+-+MF+18-65+iOS

 

[Kiber]

Sorry if this has been addressed, but do not feel like scanning thru 180+ posts.

> Does anyone know who Varys was writing those letters to? I had a buddy ask me about this last night and we both got stumped as to who would qualify as "worthy" of receiving a letter.

Think about it. Varys writes a letter to someone (or more than one), alerting them of Jon's true lineage and that he is the rightful King. He is in part promoting Jon for the throne, BUT in another part planting the ground-works for a coupe-de-taut against Danny.

* Who would qualify as having the power to do something about this? > For example, telling Yaara Greyjoy is nice, but even with the info what good would it do her?

* Who would qualify as caring enough to do something about it? > For example, sending the note to the free folk is nice, but they would not care.

Varys knows the power of Danny. So who would he think has the power and the will to do something to her, so that Jon takes the throne??

 

[KnightSlayer]

Sorry if this has been addressed, but do not feel like scanning thru 180+ posts.

> Does anyone know who Varys was writing those letters to? I had a buddy ask me about this last night and we both got stumped as to who would qualify as "worthy" of receiving a letter.

Think about it. Varys writes a letter to someone (or more than one), alerting them of Jon's true lineage and that he is the rightful King. He is in part promoting Jon for the throne, BUT in another part planting the ground-works for a coupe-de-taut against Danny.

* Who would qualify as having the power to do something about this? > For example, telling Yaara Greyjoy is nice, but even with the info what good would it do her?

* Who would qualify as caring enough to do something about it? > For example, sending the note to the free folk is nice, but they would not care.

Varys knows the power of Danny. So who would he think has the power and the will to do something to her, so that Jon takes the throne??

I figured he was sending at least one to the Citadel so they could send Ravens to all parts of the Seven Kingdoms. Probably trying to create a ground swell of support for Jon.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Sorry if this has been addressed, but do not feel like scanning thru 180+ posts.

> Does anyone know who Varys was writing those letters to? I had a buddy ask me about this last night and we both got stumped as to who would qualify as "worthy" of receiving a letter.

Think about it. Varys writes a letter to someone (or more than one), alerting them of Jon's true lineage and that he is the rightful King. He is in part promoting Jon for the throne, BUT in another part planting the ground-works for a coupe-de-taut against Danny.

* Who would qualify as having the power to do something about this? > For example, telling Yaara Greyjoy is nice, but even with the info what good would it do her?

* Who would qualify as caring enough to do something about it? > For example, sending the note to the free folk is nice, but they would not care.

Varys knows the power of Danny. So who would he think has the power and the will to do something to her, so that Jon takes the throne??

It's unclear, but maybe the folks in Dorne and other Northern Houses. I think the assumption is Arya and Sansa are probably not going to tell anyone who doesn't already know (Sansa made her move with Tyrion and it worked - he spread the news to Varys, and he's writing letters, etc.). So, Varys writes anyone left in power (and IMO, all the great houses in Westeros with two exceptions are mostly gone). It could be to folks in power in Essos or Braavos or something, but the show did a rather poor job of establishing how many other people are out there and what kind of political power structures there are outside of Westeros. Even the Citadel is sort of oblivious to everything going on - when Sam arrives, at the height of the impending White Walker invasion, they're all like - 'Sorry, reading books, busy!'.

 

[nitneelyin]

So many loose ends and only about 90 minutes remain to close them. Ain't gonna' happen! Sad that this last season was condensed and rushed. I think many expected more closure with more details. It all seems too sudden. Oh well, will try to enjoy the end as best I can. Can't imagine if the writers have a weird, twisted irony ending in store or "Dany loses, Jon wins" clear ending. 59 hours to wait and see.

 

[Kiber]

So many loose ends and only about 90 minutes remain to close them. Ain't gonna' happen! Sad that this last season was condensed and rushed. I think many expected more closure with more details. It all seems too sudden. Oh well, will try to enjoy the end as best I can. Can't imagine if the writers have a weird, twisted irony ending in store or "Dany loses, Jon wins" clear ending. 59 hours to wait and see.

What would make it a total failure is if they tried to shock us with a surprise ending this week. It's Jon or Danny. Two pretty easy story lines. If Danny gets it then either Jon dies or he agrees to go live north of the old wall with the free people and never be heard from again. If Jon wins then obviously Danny must die.... 80 minutes left. Not much time for un-expected twists.

 

[PSU2UNC]

Sorry if this has been addressed, but do not feel like scanning thru 180+ posts.

> Does anyone know who Varys was writing those letters to? I had a buddy ask me about this last night and we both got stumped as to who would qualify as "worthy" of receiving a letter.

Think about it. Varys writes a letter to someone (or more than one), alerting them of Jon's true lineage and that he is the rightful King. He is in part promoting Jon for the throne, BUT in another part planting the ground-works for a coupe-de-taut against Danny.

* Who would qualify as having the power to do something about this? > For example, telling Yaara Greyjoy is nice, but even with the info what good would it do her?

* Who would qualify as caring enough to do something about it? > For example, sending the note to the free folk is nice, but they would not care.

Varys knows the power of Danny. So who would he think has the power and the will to do something to her, so that Jon takes the throne??

I think he sent them to a bunch of people (IIRC, Ned did the same thing when he found out about the twincest bastards). It's basically creating a "public record".

In terms of who would do something, anybody who opposes Dany (which after the destruction of KL, I'm guessing is most people).

 

[MoyerJones]

Sorry if this has been addressed, but do not feel like scanning thru 180+ posts.

> Does anyone know who Varys was writing those letters to? I had a buddy ask me about this last night and we both got stumped as to who would qualify as "worthy" of receiving a letter..... So who would he think has the power and the will to do something to her, so that Jon takes the throne??

The Wording of the Letter
The letter, Varys was writing, reads as if he was informing someone that: Dany was not the only heir to the Targ dynasty. So most interpret it to mean that he was writing to a Great House that was previously pledged to a Targ King.

It's also evident that Varys was sending many letters, not just one. There's a pile of three of four next to him already scrolled-up.

My Pick
As many houses as he can AND Illyrio Mopatis - part of the ruling class in Pentos - this will be a long one (sorry) - I'll try to be brief - and I may be wrong on some of the facts:

Mopatis ("IM") is a magistar of Pentos - magistars rule Pentos (right across the narrow sea and closer to King's Landing) - Varys and IM are secret allies and have a secret meeting in Season 1, this was the scene that Arya overheard - she doesn't even understand it when she is trying to convey it to Ned.
The gist of the secret meeting between IM and Varys was that Varys wanted IM to move Khal Drogo and the Dothraki to come to KL and overthrow the Lannisters for Vicerys (Dany's brother), thereby showing that Varys and IM want a Targ on the Iron Throne. But, to make this convo even more complex, Varys later spies against Dany to save his own life by telling King Robert about the Targ kids.

Then flash forward to Season 4 or 5: Tyrion escapes KL after killing Tywin. Varys takes Tyrion to IM's palace in Pentos (I think) and Varys reveals to Tyrion that IM is a trusted friend who also wants to restore power to the Targs/Dany. This is where Varys starts to convince Tyrion to back Dany/Targ.

The first sentence says something to the effect of "Dany is not the only Targ left" - who would really care about that? IM would for whatever reason.

When Varys and Tyrion are discussing Jon's parentage and whether Jon and Dany can rule together, Varys argues that having a King as opposed to a Queen will appeal to the houses and kingdoms' preference for a King.

Ultimately this show is going Lost 2.0 (in a good way IMO) and therefore we won't find out. Varys is basically doing the same thing Jon Arryn and Ned Stark couldn't/wouldn't do, but he's paying the same price for it.

Just the idea of Varys getting the secret out is enough of a betrayal to Dany's reign that it'll be worse than the rumors about Joffrey and Tommen. Although we want to know whether this letter will foreshadow some army/force sweeping in to the aid of Jon Snow, it's more likely that this scene was used to foreshadow Dany's further descent into Mad Queen-dom. I can imagine that early on in Episode 6, we'll see a scene where Dany is discussing these letters and the spread of Jon's parentage and she'll start executing people who know.

 

[dontgojoepa]

I think this article very accurately sums up what a lot of people have been expressing about this season and explains the rushed nature the show has seemingly become:

https://www.wired.com/story/game-of...ial&utm_social-type=owned&utm_source=facebook

 

[Roar More]

After the last episode, glad I'm not on the board of the Iron Bank.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Fans petition HBO to remake final season with ‘competent writers’...LOL.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/15/game-of-thrones-petition-remake-season-8-hbo/

 

[ralphster]

I read a theory recently that was interesting. The writer's thesis was that it all comes full circle. Life sucks, humans suck, they can't govern themselves effectively, etc. No chains or circles are broken, and it all comes back to where it started before the show began...

-a Baratheon (Gendry) starts a rebellion because someone (Dany?) kills his gal (Arya)
-a Lannister (Tyrion) assassinates a mad Targaryen (Dany) and becomes 'Kingslayer'
-a Baratheon (Gendry) ends up on the throne with a 'Stark' (Jon?) at his side

...and we're back where we started.

I know there are flaws, but it would fit with the general black mood of the series

 

[WPB_lion]

Good points. But over the last 6 or 7 seasons, the character portrayed by Danny was one who was almost insanely driven to be on the throne. How many times over the last 6 or 7 seasons did we hear her say something like "I am the rightful ruler" or "I am the rightful Queen". How many times did she show a power ego and demand people to kneel before their Queen. How many times did she get upset when she thought people did not show her the proper respect as the "rightful Queen" ...... Heck, how long was her freaking title???

My point to all of that is that the character build up of Danny over the last 6-7 seasons, more or less meant that there was not going to be a happy ending marriage between Jon & her. Like you said, Jon is basically the title "Song of Ice & Fire". That title is reference to Jon.

So we have the two major characters with ultimately colliding story lines. On one story line is the main character. He is the "Ice and Fire" and he is the true rightful heir. He is "Ice and Fire". But on the other major story line is Danny who has the power of 3 dragons, the power of mighty armies and is obsessed with being the true heir to the throne .............. These were ultimately 2 colliding story lines.

After looking back at the entire story, this show went off the tracks for me when Danny made it to Westeros with an unbeatable army and three dragons but suddenly decided not to attack Kings landing because Tyrion and Varys didn’t want to destroy the city. A more believable story line would have had the battle from episode 5 of this season happening as soon as Davy arrived in Westeros with the battle ending when the bells rang. Just imagine how easy the battle would have been with 3 dragons, a full army of Dothraki and unsullied and no scorpion defenses. It makes no sense that the war with Cersei didn’t happen immediately. The remaining show could have then been about trying to kill the night king. They could have created more believable tension between Dany and Jon (if that is where the story needs to go) if Dany would have refused to help with the Night King.

Instead, we get this nonsensical story about Danny and her crew trying to avoid attacking the city for two whole seasons because of how it would be perceived by the masses (note that if the attack on kings landing stopped after the bells rang, I don’t even think it would have been perceived badly), followed by Danny’s character being changed in an instant while attacking Kings Landing and killing everyone unnecessarily. To me, the storyline they chose simply did not work and a lot of the character development suffered, particularly the characters of Tyrion, Varys and Dany.

I believe the books are going to scrap that entire storyline because it just didn’t work.

 

[aquapong]

Sorry if this has been addressed, but do not feel like scanning thru 180+ posts.

> Does anyone know who Varys was writing those letters to? I had a buddy ask me about this last night and we both got stumped as to who would qualify as "worthy" of receiving a letter.

Think about it. Varys writes a letter to someone (or more than one), alerting them of Jon's true lineage and that he is the rightful King. He is in part promoting Jon for the throne, BUT in another part planting the ground-works for a coupe-de-taut against Danny.

* Who would qualify as having the power to do something about this? > For example, telling Yaara Greyjoy is nice, but even with the info what good would it do her?

* Who would qualify as caring enough to do something about it? > For example, sending the note to the free folk is nice, but they would not care.

Varys knows the power of Danny. So who would he think has the power and the will to do something to her, so that Jon takes the throne??

I figured he was sending at least one to the Citadel so they could send Ravens to all parts of the Seven Kingdoms. Probably trying to create a ground swell of support for Jon.

Whomever is in charge in Dorne maybe? I don’t think Daario governing Mereen would care... Who else could really turn the tide?

 

[rudedude]

Rewatching Kingdom of Heaven today. Now that was a great film and story. Hope that lifts my spirits before the ending tonight.

 

[rudedude]

 

[Ranger Dan]

Fans petition HBO to remake final season with ‘competent writers’...LOL.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/15/game-of-thrones-petition-remake-season-8-hbo/

I say just wait until the books are finished and redo everything after HBO went past the books.

 

[nitneelyin]

Well, at least Bronn was in the last episode. M.A.S.H, Bob Newhart Show and others rank way, way above this finale. It was like the waiter saying they were out of your favorite beer before you finished the best burger you ever had. But they sure as hell left of lot of openings for spinoffs with everybody riding off into their own sunsets.

 

[Kiber]

After looking back at the entire story, this show went off the tracks for me when Danny made it to Westeros with an unbeatable army and three dragons but suddenly decided not to attack Kings landing because Tyrion and Varys didn’t want to destroy the city. A more believable story line would have had the battle from episode 5 of this season happening as soon as Davy arrived in Westeros with the battle ending when the bells rang. Just imagine how easy the battle would have been with 3 dragons, a full army of Dothraki and unsullied and no scorpion defenses. It makes no sense that the war with Cersei didn’t happen immediately. The remaining show could have then been about trying to kill the night king. They could have created more believable tension between Dany and Jon (if that is where the story needs to go) if Dany would have refused to help with the Night King.

Instead, we get this nonsensical story about Danny and her crew trying to avoid attacking the city for two whole seasons because of how it would be perceived by the masses (note that if the attack on kings landing stopped after the bells rang, I don’t even think it would have been perceived badly), followed by Danny’s character being changed in an instant while attacking Kings Landing and killing everyone unnecessarily. To me, the storyline they chose simply did not work and a lot of the character development suffered, particularly the characters of Tyrion, Varys and Dany.

I believe the books are going to scrap that entire storyline because it just didn’t work.

Looking back. Yes. I totally agree. This would have been the more logical story arc. Dany suffers a great deal, while accumulating the largest army & 3 dragons. She secures a fleet for the sole purpose of taking this massive invincible army over to Westeros to siege KL and claim her rightful spot on the throne. .......... Yet after all that. After all she suffered... after all she sacrificed.... after all she accomplished .... she was convinced to stop just to not destroy the city?? And up to that point she had no face time with Cersei. No 1-on-1 interaction with Cersei to come to her own conclusion that Cersei was a beeeatch. Heck, up to that point, Cersei would have most likely been ok with a surrender by Cersei.

Yes. Totally agree. This is where the writers blew it. For the sake of their own story line at this point they totally went off the rails. Once the show got off the rails, then it became very difficult to close out the story lines in any form of believable fashion.

 

[gogolion]

One of my sons summed it up best when he said once they ran out of original material, they reverted to being television writers.

I completely agree with this. Sure, there were some surprises, sort of, but no "hold s##t!" moments like Ned Stark getting beheaded. Every episode finished up with me thinking, okay, that makes sense. I never thought, OMG, I can't believe that just happened. That was what was great about the first 4 or 5 seasons.