There's really two options: (1) the hazing as described is accurate; or (2) the fraternity brothers and pledges lied under oath about it. Which do you think is far more likely?
OT: Live University/Fraternity Shaming coming up at 10AM (link)...
- Thread starter MtNittany
- Start date
To be media whores in an effort to sway future juror opinion to make them look somewhat competent in the end? That's their job?
Please read the charging document. There is plenty of evidence, documentary and testimony from brothers or pledges, to show how Beta was in violation of their own policies, IFC policies, university policies, and laws.
Why I never, ever link to Pennlive and no one else should ever either. Wish it would go under.
By the way, they have everything on video so if Bream would have been involved he would have been charged, obviously. They charged everyone else they could.
I'm just surprised Miller didn't say "Bream should have morally done more"
They also have texts where the brothers discuss the hazing. A couple even use the word hazing.
Are the defendants allowed to call a press conference, can their public defender stand next to them on the clock?
I'm sorry, but I have to call bullsh*t on this kid having a 0.40 BAC. First, there is absolutely no chance he would be conscious at that BAC. Second, let's assume he had his last drink at 2 or 3 AM, which is a fairly reasonable assumption. He wasn't admitted to the hospital until what 11 AM the following morning? So he had a 0.40 BAC 8 hours after his last drink? Wouldn't that imply that his BAC had to be something like 0.55-0.60 at the time of his last drink? That's not humanly possible. You would be dead and/or unconscious long before. Most people lose consciousness around 0.25.
And who hazes on bid acceptance night? It's supposed to be a fun (and yes alcohol-fueled) celebration. Nobody hazes kids in the first week of pledging, especially if they haven't paid any social or membership dues.
And who hazes on bid acceptance night? It's supposed to be a fun (and yes alcohol-fueled) celebration. Nobody hazes kids in the first week of pledging, especially if they haven't paid any social or membership dues.
Chris Fartner & Co. have about 7 different articles going on the same shit. Should keep the resident trolls busy for a while.
The surveillance footage and text messaging indicates that Piazza fell down the stairs at around 11:30PM. When Mount Nittany tested his blood at around 12:30PM the next day (15 hours after he started drinking at the house), his BAC was between .086 and .102 - from there, they were able to calculate his BAC at the time of the fall at between .28 and .36.
His BAC was measured as between .086 and .102 by the time he finally arrived at the hospital. The pathologist estimates that at the time of his first fall, around 11:30 p.m., his BAC would have been between .28 and .36.
There's a pretty big disparity between 0.40 and 0.28.
That's like being at a 0.08 (the legal limit) versus 0.20 where you are 2.5X the legal limit.
Leave it to SPM to quote the high side of the range and to then, of course, round up.
Read the report first, you have the wrong numbers/times.
BAC at 12:25 on 3-Feb-2017 at mt Nitt Med Center: 0.0865-0.102
Estimated back calculation to time prior to fall (23:22 on 02-Feb-2017): 0.28-0.36
Neither of those are unattainable but are certainly dangerous and/or life-threatening.
Bottom line seems to be this: When he needed help, nobody stepped up. That's a tragedy.
http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/05/keep_quiet_about_last_night_ev.html
10:47 p.m.: Piazza returns into the field of view of a surveillance camera in the frat's "Great Hall," carried up by four brother and placed on a couch. Prosecutors note that the video footage shows Piazza limp, with his eyes closed and a bruise already blooming on left side of his stomach.
Over the next several minutes, there are a number of attempts to bring Piazza around, including one brother who rubs his chest and splashes a liquid on his face. There is no response.
10:55 p.m.: Beta brother Jonah Neuman attaches a backpack to Piazza's back -- frat house-style preventive medicine for keeping someone who may have had to much to drink from rolling onto their back, where they could choke on their own vomit.
11:14 p.m.: Fraternity brother Kordel Davis, according to the report, becomes alarmed at Piazza's condition. He testified that he eventually screamed at his friends to get help for Piazza, but was shoved away by an irritated Neuman, who told him "they had it under control."
Davis persisted when Beta Vice President Ed Gilmartin came into the hall a minute later.
Davis said he told Gilmartin they should wake Piazza up, call for an ambulance and get him to the hospital. But Gilmartin noted, according to Davis's testimony, that the other brothers on hand were kinesiology and biology majors, "so Davis's word meant nothing to him when compared to theirs," the prosecutors wrote.
Davis, incidentally, told the grand jury he had prior life experience with head injuries, though what that was is not detailed in the presentment.
11:25 p.m.: A Beta pledge master, Daniel Casey, slaps Piazza in the face three times, in another apparent attempt to rouse him.
Piazza is eventually "backpacked" again, and largely left on his own through the night, witnessed only by the camera as he appears to fight the consequences of his injuries.
1:48 a.m.: Piazza rolls off the couch and is "slammed" back onto it by three brothers.
3:22 a.m.: Piazza tries to stand, buts falls backward and strikes his head on the hall's hardwood floor. Another brother in the Great Hall, Jerry Coyne, sees this, attempts to shake Piazza, and then leaves the room.
4:59 a.m.: Piazza stands up and staggers into the fraternity's front lobby, falling again onto a stone floor. There, at 5:15 a.m., Beta brother Jonathan Martines steps over the prone Piazza on his way to the kitchen for a glass of water.
5:26 a.m.: Another brother comes downstairs. This person, Frederick Steimling, tries to help Piazza back to the Great Hall, but leaves him when Piazza falls to the ground again.
6:44 a.m.: One of Piazza's fellow pledges, according to the report, enters the hall. At 6:57 a.m., he starts to take a video of Piazza using the "snapchat" app, according to the report.
7:18 a.m.: Piazza is seen rising to his feet again, this time staggering toward the basement stairs. It's not clear if he fell down the steps a second time, but the next time he's seen, it's on the basement floor.
10 a.m.: Two Beta brothers talk about Piazza, see his shoes in the Great Hall, and start to search for him. His condition as they found him:
"Timothy was lying on his back with his arms clenched tight at his sides and his hands in the air. His chest was bare, his breathing heavy, and he had blood on his face.
"(Daniel) Erickson further observed that Timothy felt cold to the touch, his skin appeared pale, and his eyes remained half-open."
Three brothers carried the limp Piazza back into the hall, where, accordging to the report, there was a final, 42-minute hand-wringing session before an ambulance wa called.
During that time, Parks Miller said brothers consulted Google about Piazza's symptoms, debated about whether to contact Tim Bream, the fraternity's live-in senior advisor, and waited for the frat's president to arrive.
10:48 a.m.: An ambulance is called.
http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/05/keep_quiet_about_last_night_ev.html
10:47 p.m.: Piazza returns into the field of view of a surveillance camera in the frat's "Great Hall," carried up by four brother and placed on a couch. Prosecutors note that the video footage shows Piazza limp, with his eyes closed and a bruise already blooming on left side of his stomach.
Over the next several minutes, there are a number of attempts to bring Piazza around, including one brother who rubs his chest and splashes a liquid on his face. There is no response.
10:55 p.m.: Beta brother Jonah Neuman attaches a backpack to Piazza's back -- frat house-style preventive medicine for keeping someone who may have had to much to drink from rolling onto their back, where they could choke on their own vomit.
11:14 p.m.: Fraternity brother Kordel Davis, according to the report, becomes alarmed at Piazza's condition. He testified that he eventually screamed at his friends to get help for Piazza, but was shoved away by an irritated Neuman, who told him "they had it under control."
Davis persisted when Beta Vice President Ed Gilmartin came into the hall a minute later.
Davis said he told Gilmartin they should wake Piazza up, call for an ambulance and get him to the hospital. But Gilmartin noted, according to Davis's testimony, that the other brothers on hand were kinesiology and biology majors, "so Davis's word meant nothing to him when compared to theirs," the prosecutors wrote.
Davis, incidentally, told the grand jury he had prior life experience with head injuries, though what that was is not detailed in the presentment.
11:25 p.m.: A Beta pledge master, Daniel Casey, slaps Piazza in the face three times, in another apparent attempt to rouse him.
Piazza is eventually "backpacked" again, and largely left on his own through the night, witnessed only by the camera as he appears to fight the consequences of his injuries.
1:48 a.m.: Piazza rolls off the couch and is "slammed" back onto it by three brothers.
3:22 a.m.: Piazza tries to stand, buts falls backward and strikes his head on the hall's hardwood floor. Another brother in the Great Hall, Jerry Coyne, sees this, attempts to shake Piazza, and then leaves the room.
4:59 a.m.: Piazza stands up and staggers into the fraternity's front lobby, falling again onto a stone floor. There, at 5:15 a.m., Beta brother Jonathan Martines steps over the prone Piazza on his way to the kitchen for a glass of water.
5:26 a.m.: Another brother comes downstairs. This person, Frederick Steimling, tries to help Piazza back to the Great Hall, but leaves him when Piazza falls to the ground again.
6:44 a.m.: One of Piazza's fellow pledges, according to the report, enters the hall. At 6:57 a.m., he starts to take a video of Piazza using the "snapchat" app, according to the report.
7:18 a.m.: Piazza is seen rising to his feet again, this time staggering toward the basement stairs. It's not clear if he fell down the steps a second time, but the next time he's seen, it's on the basement floor.
10 a.m.: Two Beta brothers talk about Piazza, see his shoes in the Great Hall, and start to search for him. His condition as they found him:
"Timothy was lying on his back with his arms clenched tight at his sides and his hands in the air. His chest was bare, his breathing heavy, and he had blood on his face.
"(Daniel) Erickson further observed that Timothy felt cold to the touch, his skin appeared pale, and his eyes remained half-open."
Three brothers carried the limp Piazza back into the hall, where, accordging to the report, there was a final, 42-minute hand-wringing session before an ambulance wa called.
During that time, Parks Miller said brothers consulted Google about Piazza's symptoms, debated about whether to contact Tim Bream, the fraternity's live-in senior advisor, and waited for the frat's president to arrive.
10:48 a.m.: An ambulance is called.
Beta deserves whatever punishment they get. YOu can thank Beta. I am sure you will try to blame the media , lawyers and BoT.
They are punishing those who are guilty. They have the whole thing on video. They forced the kid to drink. Once he dies what do you expect?
The information captured on video is what it is. The Piazzas' heart-wrenching statement to the media and to the public was impactful. Kudos for Mr. Piazza for being able to get through it and honor their son.
As we saw with what the OAG did with McQ's testimony in the GJ Presentment, the prosecution can and may decide to change, enhance, omit, etc. testimony that even remotely harms their chances of getting an indictment.
So, while this presentment as written is gut-wrenching and sad, and the video info (without audio, I take it?) is damning, we cannot be 100% certain that all the other info in the presentment is portrayed 100% accurately, including text messages. It may be, but maybe not.
Regardless, the defense needs to overcome not only the damning evidence on the video and texts and from witnesses, but also the public perception which has now been set. There is now a public mindset that someone needs to pay, and all of this potentially slants the way the jury hears the case. And it all very well may be true, but it should be left to a courtroom to be decided, as someone else mentioned.
The DA using the media to campaign and to showboat is sickening. And that is what they do with these higher-profile cases, imo. They aren't serving the public good, they are self-serving. And imo, the reason they tie the family statements to their own show is self-serving as well.
You, me, many others here have already made decisions about guilt in this case. And our assumptions based on what we've read may very well be correct. The timeline of events from the video as written into the presentment is horrifying in its detail.
But, even with all that, guilt should be decided in court, not in the public after a DA press conference. This has been a trend and is increasingly prevalent, and is not always in the best interests of the public being served. But it sure does work into the best interests of the DA or OAG.
Due process is harmed, even if the parties are truly guilty in the end as decided by the judicial system. All just my opinion.
A
anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
A
anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
What is his role as 'advisor'? Is that just a title, or does it serve a purpose? Obviously trying to attach his name because of the football connection, but is it weird that he lives in an on campus frat house or does that happen a lot? Sorry - not a frat guy so no idea...
I would assume his role was sort of a House Mother. It would be a cool place to live if you were young and worked on campus, but at age 56 - that's strange.
To each his own but drinking responsibly in no way makes one unable to sense what is going on around them. There's a big difference between responsible and irresponsible drinking.
I agree. I grew up in a bar. May dad was a bartender and we lived in an apartment above the bar. I totally understand that drinking alcoholic beverages promotes a sense of camaraderie among friends. I also understand that some drinks taste good. However, I saw countless people die in their 40s from liver disease and other effects of too much alcohol. I got scared off and don't drink at all. I do respect the rights of others to drink if they so choose.
Didn't he have a moral obligation? In hindsight I bet he wishes he had done more (tic).
PennLies feverishly trying to tie part of this to PSU Football. Scumbag whores. Speaking of which, time for Ganim to do an opinion piece, or perish the thought, perhaps even an investigative report.
They needed someone that majored in Party Technology 101.
- Never sign for the keg.
- If you do sign for the keg then use a fake ID with the name Pat Narduzzi.
-. If the cops come, run like hell.
-. Don't break the law at your own house.
- IF you do break the law, don't videotape yourselves breaking the law.
- If you are going to drink/haze then stick with beer. Almost all the drinking deaths are hard alcohol
A kid died at a frat hazing party. Did you think there wasn't already a public reason to want someone to pay? That's what the public always wants.
The media is an easy whipping boy here.
Well, I was thinking beyond just this particular case.
The media frenzy stirs the public frenzy. If we stop to think about it, the real solution needs to go beyond making someone pay. The criminal justice system should and will see to making someone pay. The media could reinforce that concept.
The real goal should be to get in front of this far more effectively than we have been so we can prevent more future problems, including deaths from alcohol poisoning and from these archaic and out-of-control hazing rituals.
To that end, the media could do a much better, much more responsible job in creating discussion points and whipping up a public frenzy for getting together to discuss possible solutions, rather than primarily for punishment. Too often, they trade in the challenges they could take on in favor of newsbites, readership and online clicks, and in favor of their own names attached to "Wow!" headlines.
In that regard, they open themselves up to be an easy whipping boy.
More obvious unintended consequences of banning kegs. Go figure.
I just read it as well. Of course we've learned to take these things with a grain of salt because presentments are one-sided documents. Even knowing that, many of these guys are in serious trouble. Obviously in college the existence of underage drinking is no surprise. In this case it appears there was lots of it and there appears to be a pattern of hazing via alcohol consumption. Also there appears be be plenty of evidence in terms of video, phone records and interviews. I suspect this is not going to go well for many members of that fraternity.
The saddest part is that in hindsight, there still may have been opportunities to save that young man despite the mistakes in allowing him to reach such a drunk condition that lead to a serious fall. The judgment of those brothers in the time from the fall until the next morning is going to be under a microscope. I'd imagine even the brothers themselves are second-guessing everything that happened during that time but it's too late now. I have no doubt that at the time they felt it was nothing more than a drunk accident. Of course they were all drinking, so everyone's judgment was likely impaired in the heat of the moment. It seems only 1 person spoke up saying that this was serious, and the group dismissed him. In hindsight this all looks really bad, particularly when they allegedly deleted phone messages and cleaned up evidence of having alcohol in the house. This is a tragic story and hopefully many will learn from it going forward.
