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OT: Pancreatic cancer - Goodbye to my father

Updates:

My parents were very pleased with the surgeon and oncologist here in Cincinnati. Because of that, and because they were able to begin chemo sooner than they would even get an appointment at The James, they chose to go with this group. I am supportive because the hospital and surgeon they are using are high-volume for pancreatic surgeries (100/yr vs 120/yr at the James), and they have been performing the robotic surgery for 7 years to the James' 2.

My dad began chemo today with FOLFIRINOX. The idea that my dad is on chemo is so surreal I think I've simply tucked it away somewhere I can pretend it isn't real. I have convinced my parents, based on the recent studies of Dr. Truty at the Mayo Clinic, that a minimum of 6 cycles is necessary. But I have continued bitching that a PET scan has yet to be performed. A CT scan is helpful, and an endoscopic ultrasound is great, but we need a PET scan or laporascopy to say for certain if it's spread. Needless to say, the insurance companies have balked, claiming it is redundant. I will sue them to the end of the world and back, soon enough.

Because of his elevated CA 19-9 levels and the lack of PET scan, I have remained highly concerned. But I was encouraged that the doctors were so confident in saying he was Stage 1, that it was caught early, he was so lucky, and it could be cured. However, when he arrived for his chemo today and blood work was taken, there was concern expressed regarding his liver levels. Of course there was. I said from the start that this CA 19-9 indicated strongly that it metastasized. I let my guard down and started to believe the hope. But it turns out my research was correct, those CA19-9 levels mean it has spread, in my father's case to his liver, one of the two most obvious places.

I always said after law school that I would only trust myself, because I saw that every profession has its idiots. I abandoned that in hopes these doctors were right about my dad. These liver tests tell me it already spread, that I knew that was the case, that the PET scan was necessary, and that the medical community gives zero ****s. Rough day, thanks for the board.

Don't blame you a bit for being pissed. I too hate how the insurance companies dictate treatment these days. And as for the doctors, sometimes one has to wonder if they even look at these test results. My oldest sister was diagnosed with a very rare blood cancer. It is chronic, but slow moving. To the point, one of the markers for it is a high platelet count. Turns out she had these readings dating back to 2012, and it wasn't noticed until pre-op tests for shoulder surgery in 2018. They wouldn't do the surgery until the counts could be brought down. Further testing revealed the cancer. When she asked her PCP's office why no mention of this was ever made, the reply was that they "dropped the ball" on it. So, for six years this went unchecked. Nice.

Anyway, keep venting to the board and to those confidantes close to you.
 
Updates:

My parents were very pleased with the surgeon and oncologist here in Cincinnati. Because of that, and because they were able to begin chemo sooner than they would even get an appointment at The James, they chose to go with this group. I am supportive because the hospital and surgeon they are using are high-volume for pancreatic surgeries (100/yr vs 120/yr at the James), and they have been performing the robotic surgery for 7 years to the James' 2.

My dad began chemo today with FOLFIRINOX. The idea that my dad is on chemo is so surreal I think I've simply tucked it away somewhere I can pretend it isn't real. I have convinced my parents, based on the recent studies of Dr. Truty at the Mayo Clinic, that a minimum of 6 cycles is necessary. But I have continued bitching that a PET scan has yet to be performed. A CT scan is helpful, and an endoscopic ultrasound is great, but we need a PET scan or laporascopy to say for certain if it's spread. Needless to say, the insurance companies have balked, claiming it is redundant. I will sue them to the end of the world and back, soon enough.

Because of his elevated CA 19-9 levels and the lack of PET scan, I have remained highly concerned. But I was encouraged that the doctors were so confident in saying he was Stage 1, that it was caught early, he was so lucky, and it could be cured. However, when he arrived for his chemo today and blood work was taken, there was concern expressed regarding his liver levels. Of course there was. I said from the start that this CA 19-9 indicated strongly that it metastasized. I let my guard down and started to believe the hope. But it turns out my research was correct, those CA19-9 levels mean it has spread, in my father's case to his liver, one of the two most obvious places.

I always said after law school that I would only trust myself, because I saw that every profession has its idiots. I abandoned that in hopes these doctors were right about my dad. These liver tests tell me it already spread, that I knew that was the case, that the PET scan was necessary, and that the medical community gives zero ****s. Rough day, thanks for the board.

Keep the faith wb.

Prayers sent your way sir for those concerned.
 
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Wb, thank you for the update. Really sorry that the news isn’t better. It truly is unbelievable how the insurance industry has taken over the doctors’ ability to practice medicine. Your dedication to your father is inspirational. I will continue to keep you all in my thoughts and that your father and family and you will feel the benefit of same. I remember hearing of studies years ago that concluded that patients who knew and felt those efforts of prayers and thoughts about them did have benefits afforded them. All my best wishes to you and your family particularly your dad.
 
Updates:

My parents were very pleased with the surgeon and oncologist here in Cincinnati. Because of that, and because they were able to begin chemo sooner than they would even get an appointment at The James, they chose to go with this group. I am supportive because the hospital and surgeon they are using are high-volume for pancreatic surgeries (100/yr vs 120/yr at the James), and they have been performing the robotic surgery for 7 years to the James' 2.

My dad began chemo today with FOLFIRINOX. The idea that my dad is on chemo is so surreal I think I've simply tucked it away somewhere I can pretend it isn't real. I have convinced my parents, based on the recent studies of Dr. Truty at the Mayo Clinic, that a minimum of 6 cycles is necessary. But I have continued bitching that a PET scan has yet to be performed. A CT scan is helpful, and an endoscopic ultrasound is great, but we need a PET scan or laporascopy to say for certain if it's spread. Needless to say, the insurance companies have balked, claiming it is redundant. I will sue them to the end of the world and back, soon enough.

Because of his elevated CA 19-9 levels and the lack of PET scan, I have remained highly concerned. But I was encouraged that the doctors were so confident in saying he was Stage 1, that it was caught early, he was so lucky, and it could be cured. However, when he arrived for his chemo today and blood work was taken, there was concern expressed regarding his liver levels. Of course there was. I said from the start that this CA 19-9 indicated strongly that it metastasized. I let my guard down and started to believe the hope. But it turns out my research was correct, those CA19-9 levels mean it has spread, in my father's case to his liver, one of the two most obvious places.

I always said after law school that I would only trust myself, because I saw that every profession has its idiots. I abandoned that in hopes these doctors were right about my dad. These liver tests tell me it already spread, that I knew that was the case, that the PET scan was necessary, and that the medical community gives zero ****s. Rough day, thanks for the board.

If a PET scan is very important, which it appears to be, I would consider simply paying for one on your own and skipping insurance to get it faster. For instance, I used ProScan in Cincinnati to deal with a hip issue that insurance wouldn't pay simply because I wanted to know more about my condition. An MRI at ProScan cost $600 about 3.5 years ago. I had to pay before or immediately after the procedure. My gp told me that ProScan was good and I was happy with the MRI.

One thing to be careful of is that they can charge a fortune ($2000 in my case) to read the MRI. (Because they screwed up some insurance papers, I didn't have to pay it) To get around this issue, just have one of your own specialists read the PET scan.

Don't know whether they do PET scans, but it seems like they should. If not, there ought to be an independent company/practice that will do it at a reasonable price if you pay upfront. You could obviously check with your specialists to make sure that they consider any provider you choose to be competent.
 
Oh man, cincy, I was so hoping the docs were right. Are your parents understanding the news? You’re in an extra tough position with the research you’ve done - hard to keep the balance between hope and the numbers.

Totally off the wall question, but do you have your planned Boardwalk dates in March? We’ll be there the first week. Would love to offer to buy you a round or two if it helps get your mind off the weighty stuff for a bit. Sorry, it’s all I have...

Mike, thank you so much for the offer, unfortunately we are not there until the last week of March (to coincide with my son's spring break). Enjoy your time, I know there are folks that hate Disney World, but our family absolutely loves it. All depends on your attitude about life!
 
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Personal cathartic update:

My dad's 3rd round of chemo is tomorrow. His beard has turned into a goatee, which is now on the cusp of being a clean-shaven face. While he suffers many of chemo's side effects (hair loss, fatigue, mouth sores, neuropathy, etc), he has been extremely fortunate nonetheless as he has no debilitating nausea. He discussed with me this past week the depression that comes with the couple days following a chemo session. It was something he was completely unprepared for, having no life experience with depression or the dark places it can take you. Understanding it now, he's hopeful he'll be able to handle it better going forward.

Of course, being the type of man he is, he continues to be concerned with others rather than himself. I can't recall if I mentioned this previously in this thread, but when the word finally came that he had pancreatic cancer, the first thing my dad did was to tell my mom that he was sorry. Having just been told that his own life was likely nearing its end, all he could think of immediately was to be sorry for what it would mean to others. My dad is a blessing and a curse in that regard, being exactly the type of father anyone should hope for, but also creating a standard I can't ever meet as a father myself.

I had a call with the head of pancreatic surgery at the Mayo Clinic last week, and I thought it was worth mentioning because it's pretty cool for the guy to take time and discuss my dad's case with me despite my making clear he would not be a patient there. Dr. Truty is a former college football player who lost his father to pancreatic cancer, and he is worth mentioning here for being a decent human being, and for doing great things in advancing PC treatment.

I've tried to calm down about the PET scan thing. It hasn't happened, and at this point any metasteses could be dead and wouldn't show up on a PET anyway. They should see it when they open him up if it has spread, and close him back up quickly. I'll be sure to bring this up in advance. I don't want to be paranoid, but I want to make sure they know they shouldn't be looking to cash in on a surgery unless it's warranted.

Also, not bad for a pancreatic cancer patient undergoing chemo:

hpditFb.jpg
 
Personal cathartic update:

My dad's 3rd round of chemo is tomorrow. His beard has turned into a goatee, which is now on the cusp of being a clean-shaven face. While he suffers many of chemo's side effects (hair loss, fatigue, mouth sores, neuropathy, etc), he has been extremely fortunate nonetheless as he has no debilitating nausea. He discussed with me this past week the depression that comes with the couple days following a chemo session. It was something he was completely unprepared for, having no life experience with depression or the dark places it can take you. Understanding it now, he's hopeful he'll be able to handle it better going forward.

Of course, being the type of man he is, he continues to be concerned with others rather than himself. I can't recall if I mentioned this previously in this thread, but when the word finally came that he had pancreatic cancer, the first thing my dad did was to tell my mom that he was sorry. Having just been told that his own life was likely nearing its end, all he could think of immediately was to be sorry for what it would mean to others. My dad is a blessing and a curse in that regard, being exactly the type of father anyone should hope for, but also creating a standard I can't ever meet as a father myself.

I had a call with the head of pancreatic surgery at the Mayo Clinic last week, and I thought it was worth mentioning because it's pretty cool for the guy to take time and discuss my dad's case with me despite my making clear he would not be a patient there. Dr. Truty is a former college football player who lost his father to pancreatic cancer, and he is worth mentioning here for being a decent human being, and for doing great things in advancing PC treatment.

I've tried to calm down about the PET scan thing. It hasn't happened, and at this point any metasteses could be dead and wouldn't show up on a PET anyway. They should see it when they open him up if it has spread, and close him back up quickly. I'll be sure to bring this up in advance. I don't want to be paranoid, but I want to make sure they know they shouldn't be looking to cash in on a surgery unless it's warranted.

Also, not bad for a pancreatic cancer patient undergoing chemo:

hpditFb.jpg

Great post!

Thanks for sharing.

My prayers go out for him and to your/his entire family.

Stay strong; all of you!

-TheGLOV
 
Almost two months since I update, thought I would vent yet again here.

A "CA19-9" level is a marker excreted from a cancerous tumor. It's useful in showing whether someone has cancer, whether treatment is working, etc. Normal is under 37. My father's was 1750 when his blood was first drawn, and 3200 the day of his first chemo treatment. Median among pancreatic cancer patients is 250, so that was a very bad number for my dad. It can indicate both aggressiveness or potential metasteses. As discussed earlier, they did not do a PET scan, so we dont really know for sure if it spread in a way the CT scan couldn't show.

On the positive, my father's body has responded as well to the chemo as could possibly be hoped for. His CA19-9 has dropped from 3200 to 193. Three days ago, he finished his 6th cycle of chemo and rang the bell supposedly completing his treatment.

Yet I'm devastated. Through my connection to Dr. Truty at the Mayo clinic and review of numerous other studies, I am aware that the only way the Whipple procedure is beneficial is if the CA19-9 level is normalized prior to surgery. A patient essentially goes from a 28 month life expectancy to 60 months+ if CA19-9 is normalized prior to surgery.

But my father's oncologist is telling him that his chronic pancreatitis or bile obstruction could also cause the elevations. He's correct. Problem is, he can't say what that baseline number is that is unrelated to cancer. It could be that those benign factors are causing all, or none of the elevation, he has no idea. But as long as the number is dropping, that's a cancer number dropping, not a benign cause. The oncologist told him they were good with a 200 number, and acted thrilled when he got there and had him ring the bell. So of course it's mission accomplished from my dad's perspective. But I know that he might as well have done nothing if he doesn't normalize that CA19-9. Going from 3200 to 193 is incredible, but only if you think cutting 95% of the seeds off a dandelion pod matters. As long as there are still 5% remaining, they will spread everywhere. The same is true here.

I'm now left fighting against the oncologist, my mother, and my father, all for what I know is my father's only hope. My father wants to be done with chemo, of course, so when the oncologist tells him he's there, he's receptive. My parents want to believe and trust doctors, so they do. I know that his oncologist is following the present standard protocol. He can never be sued. What he's doing is checking the boxes of the presently accepted standard of care. But we know what the best institutions are doing, and they've realized that normalizing CA19-9 is imperative. It will be the standard protocol in 5 years. But this guy only cares about what is accepted now.

I've been trying to explain to my mother for weeks that he needs to have a CA19-9 under 37. Two weeks ago it was 350. Today it was 193. I said thats great, but we still have to get to 37, or hit a plateau which indicates that his elevated CA19-9 is now solely related to his bile duct obstruction and not the cancer. So she said "so would you have been happier if it stayed 350," since a decrease means I think we should continue. That hurt a lot. My parents consider me to be pessimistic. I don't. I think I'm overly rational and logical. Those are what dictate all my decisions. I said I didn't wan't it to stay 350, but if it did, at least it would be a data point to influence my future decisions.

It's just so inconceivable that I know for certain what will give my father the best likelihood of survival, but I'm treated now as though I'm the enemy, because I'm suggesting more suffering to get there. I told my mother that if it were me, I'd continue with treatment until it was normalized, no matter how long it took. She told me I couldn't say that, because I don't understand how bad the chemo is. I said that I agreed, but that if I couldn't take the chemo anymore, I just wouldn't do the Whipple surgery, because I know that the surgery is pointless if you don't achiever the CA19-9 levels in advance of it.

Anyway, just upset this evening. My father is the perfect candidate to be cured. But he has a cancer clinic following 2015 protocol instead of 2025, so my father is thrilled to be done. I now expect to report his demise within 3 years, because he will listen to the outdated oncologist, when i know I could've had 3 more years or more. I hate medicine, and I hate insurance.
 
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Almost two months since I update, thought I would vent yet again here.

A "CA19-9" level is a marker excreted from a cancerous tumor. It's useful in showing whether someone has cancer, whether treatment is working, etc. Normal is under 37. My father's was 1750 when his blood was first drawn, and 3200 the day of his first chemo treatment. Median among pancreatic cancer patients is 250, so that was a very bad number for my dad. It can indicate both aggressiveness or potential metasteses. As discussed earlier, they did not do a PET scan, so we dont really know for sure if it spread in a way the CT scan couldn't show.

On the positive, my father's body has responded as well to the chemo as could possibly be hoped for. His CA19-9 has dropped from 3200 to 193. Three days ago, he finished his 6th cycle of chemo and rang the bell supposedly completing his treatment.

Yet I'm devastated. Through my connection to Dr. Truty at the Mayo clinic and review of numerous other studies, I am aware that the only way the Whipple procedure is beneficial is if the CA19-9 level is normalized prior to surgery. A patient essentially goes from a 28 month life expectancy to 60 months+ if CA19-9 is normalized prior to surgery.

But my father's oncologist is telling him that his chronic pancreatitis or bile obstruction could also cause the elevations. He's correct. Problem is, he can't say what that baseline number is that is unrelated to cancer. It could be that those benign factors are causing all, or none of the elevation, he has no idea. But as long as the number is dropping, that's a cancer number dropping, not a benign cause. The oncologist told him they were good with a 200 number, and acted thrilled when he got there and had him ring the bell. So of course it's mission accomplished from my dad's perspective. But I know that he might as well have done nothing if he doesn't normalize that CA19-9. Going from 3200 to 193 is incredible, but only if you think cutting 95% of the seeds off a dandelion pod matters. As long as there are still 5% remaining, they will spread everywhere. The same is true here.

I'm now left fighting against the oncologist, my mother, and my father, all for what I know is my father's only hope. My father wants to be done with chemo, of course, so when the oncologist tells him he's there, he's receptive. My parents want to believe and trust doctors, so they do. I know that his oncologist is following the present standard protocol. He can never be sued. What he's doing is checking the boxes of the presently accepted standard of care. But we know what the best institutions are doing, and they've realized that normalizing CA19-9 is imperative. It will be the standard protocol in 5 years. But this guy only cares about what is accepted now.

I've been trying to explain to my mother for weeks that he needs to have a CA19-9 under 37. Two weeks ago it was 350. Today it was 193. I said thats great, but we still have to get to 37, or hit a plateau which indicates that his elevated CA19-9 is now solely related to his bile duct obstruction and not the cancer. So she said "so would you have been happier if it stayed 350," since a decrease means I think we should continue. That hurt a lot. My parents consider me to be pessimistic. I don't. I think I'm overly rational and logical. Those are what dictate all my decisions. I said I didn't wan't it to stay 350, but if it did, at least it would be a data point to influence my future decisions.

It's just so inconceivable that I know for certain what will give my father the best likelihood of survival, but I'm treated now as though I'm the enemy, because I'm suggesting more suffering to get there. I told my mother that if it were me, I'd continue with treatment until it was normalized, no matter how long it took. She told me I couldn't say that, because I don't understand how bad the chemo is. I said that I agreed, but that if I couldn't take the chemo anymore, I just wouldn't do the Whipple surgery, because I know that the surgery is pointless if you don't achiever the CA19-9 levels in advance of it.

Anyway, just upset this evening. My father is the perfect candidate to be cured. But he has a cancer clinic following 2015 protocol instead of 2025, so my father is thrilled to be done. I now expect to report his demise within 3 years, because he will listen to the outdated oncologist, when i know I could've had 3 more years or more. I hate medicine, and I hate insurance.
Boy that's a tough situation. I understand how your dad and mom feel relative to the Chemo, but you've obviously done your homework and I agree with you. Nothing you can do except what you've done. You've done your best to give them all the information.
I have an uncle and he's struggling with mental acuity issues and memory loss. He seems normal one minute and then he's asking me the same question he asked me five minutes earlier. My cousin is a doctor from Penn Med and his father won't listen to him. My uncle just says it is what it is and he's not going to a neurologist or anything.
I wish you the best with your dad and family. God bless.
 
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It's just so inconceivable that I know for certain what will give my father the best likelihood of survival, but I'm treated now as though I'm the enemy, because I'm suggesting more suffering to get there.

This may not be the right thing to say, but for many people the extra suffering is just not worth the cost to survive. As a result, they cling to false hope because it is easier than following an extremely difficult road to a possible cure. I have no doubt I would act just as you have, but the treatments you want for your dad may not be what he wants. I am not suggesting you give up on your treatment plan, but just be careful you don't push to far. In the end, it's his decision. Your dad and your family will be in my prayers tonight.
 
Almost two months since I update, thought I would vent yet again here.

A "CA19-9" level is a marker excreted from a cancerous tumor. It's useful in showing whether someone has cancer, whether treatment is working, etc. Normal is under 37. My father's was 1750 when his blood was first drawn, and 3200 the day of his first chemo treatment. Median among pancreatic cancer patients is 250, so that was a very bad number for my dad. It can indicate both aggressiveness or potential metasteses. As discussed earlier, they did not do a PET scan, so we dont really know for sure if it spread in a way the CT scan couldn't show.

On the positive, my father's body has responded as well to the chemo as could possibly be hoped for. His CA19-9 has dropped from 3200 to 193. Three days ago, he finished his 6th cycle of chemo and rang the bell supposedly completing his treatment.

Yet I'm devastated. Through my connection to Dr. Truty at the Mayo clinic and review of numerous other studies, I am aware that the only way the Whipple procedure is beneficial is if the CA19-9 level is normalized prior to surgery. A patient essentially goes from a 28 month life expectancy to 60 months+ if CA19-9 is normalized prior to surgery.

But my father's oncologist is telling him that his chronic pancreatitis or bile obstruction could also cause the elevations. He's correct. Problem is, he can't say what that baseline number is that is unrelated to cancer. It could be that those benign factors are causing all, or none of the elevation, he has no idea. But as long as the number is dropping, that's a cancer number dropping, not a benign cause. The oncologist told him they were good with a 200 number, and acted thrilled when he got there and had him ring the bell. So of course it's mission accomplished from my dad's perspective. But I know that he might as well have done nothing if he doesn't normalize that CA19-9. Going from 3200 to 193 is incredible, but only if you think cutting 95% of the seeds off a dandelion pod matters. As long as there are still 5% remaining, they will spread everywhere. The same is true here.

I'm now left fighting against the oncologist, my mother, and my father, all for what I know is my father's only hope. My father wants to be done with chemo, of course, so when the oncologist tells him he's there, he's receptive. My parents want to believe and trust doctors, so they do. I know that his oncologist is following the present standard protocol. He can never be sued. What he's doing is checking the boxes of the presently accepted standard of care. But we know what the best institutions are doing, and they've realized that normalizing CA19-9 is imperative. It will be the standard protocol in 5 years. But this guy only cares about what is accepted now.

I've been trying to explain to my mother for weeks that he needs to have a CA19-9 under 37. Two weeks ago it was 350. Today it was 193. I said thats great, but we still have to get to 37, or hit a plateau which indicates that his elevated CA19-9 is now solely related to his bile duct obstruction and not the cancer. So she said "so would you have been happier if it stayed 350," since a decrease means I think we should continue. That hurt a lot. My parents consider me to be pessimistic. I don't. I think I'm overly rational and logical. Those are what dictate all my decisions. I said I didn't wan't it to stay 350, but if it did, at least it would be a data point to influence my future decisions.

It's just so inconceivable that I know for certain what will give my father the best likelihood of survival, but I'm treated now as though I'm the enemy, because I'm suggesting more suffering to get there. I told my mother that if it were me, I'd continue with treatment until it was normalized, no matter how long it took. She told me I couldn't say that, because I don't understand how bad the chemo is. I said that I agreed, but that if I couldn't take the chemo anymore, I just wouldn't do the Whipple surgery, because I know that the surgery is pointless if you don't achiever the CA19-9 levels in advance of it.

Anyway, just upset this evening. My father is the perfect candidate to be cured. But he has a cancer clinic following 2015 protocol instead of 2025, so my father is thrilled to be done. I now expect to report his demise within 3 years, because he will listen to the outdated oncologist, when i know I could've had 3 more years or more. I hate medicine, and I hate insurance.

wb, just be there for both of them.

Prayers offered, by me, by the boat load sir!
 
Almost two months since I update, thought I would vent yet again here.

A "CA19-9" level is a marker excreted from a cancerous tumor. It's useful in showing whether someone has cancer, whether treatment is working, etc. Normal is under 37. My father's was 1750 when his blood was first drawn, and 3200 the day of his first chemo treatment. Median among pancreatic cancer patients is 250, so that was a very bad number for my dad. It can indicate both aggressiveness or potential metasteses. As discussed earlier, they did not do a PET scan, so we dont really know for sure if it spread in a way the CT scan couldn't show.

On the positive, my father's body has responded as well to the chemo as could possibly be hoped for. His CA19-9 has dropped from 3200 to 193. Three days ago, he finished his 6th cycle of chemo and rang the bell supposedly completing his treatment.

Yet I'm devastated. Through my connection to Dr. Truty at the Mayo clinic and review of numerous other studies, I am aware that the only way the Whipple procedure is beneficial is if the CA19-9 level is normalized prior to surgery. A patient essentially goes from a 28 month life expectancy to 60 months+ if CA19-9 is normalized prior to surgery.

But my father's oncologist is telling him that his chronic pancreatitis or bile obstruction could also cause the elevations. He's correct. Problem is, he can't say what that baseline number is that is unrelated to cancer. It could be that those benign factors are causing all, or none of the elevation, he has no idea. But as long as the number is dropping, that's a cancer number dropping, not a benign cause. The oncologist told him they were good with a 200 number, and acted thrilled when he got there and had him ring the bell. So of course it's mission accomplished from my dad's perspective. But I know that he might as well have done nothing if he doesn't normalize that CA19-9. Going from 3200 to 193 is incredible, but only if you think cutting 95% of the seeds off a dandelion pod matters. As long as there are still 5% remaining, they will spread everywhere. The same is true here.

I'm now left fighting against the oncologist, my mother, and my father, all for what I know is my father's only hope. My father wants to be done with chemo, of course, so when the oncologist tells him he's there, he's receptive. My parents want to believe and trust doctors, so they do. I know that his oncologist is following the present standard protocol. He can never be sued. What he's doing is checking the boxes of the presently accepted standard of care. But we know what the best institutions are doing, and they've realized that normalizing CA19-9 is imperative. It will be the standard protocol in 5 years. But this guy only cares about what is accepted now.

I've been trying to explain to my mother for weeks that he needs to have a CA19-9 under 37. Two weeks ago it was 350. Today it was 193. I said thats great, but we still have to get to 37, or hit a plateau which indicates that his elevated CA19-9 is now solely related to his bile duct obstruction and not the cancer. So she said "so would you have been happier if it stayed 350," since a decrease means I think we should continue. That hurt a lot. My parents consider me to be pessimistic. I don't. I think I'm overly rational and logical. Those are what dictate all my decisions. I said I didn't wan't it to stay 350, but if it did, at least it would be a data point to influence my future decisions.

It's just so inconceivable that I know for certain what will give my father the best likelihood of survival, but I'm treated now as though I'm the enemy, because I'm suggesting more suffering to get there. I told my mother that if it were me, I'd continue with treatment until it was normalized, no matter how long it took. She told me I couldn't say that, because I don't understand how bad the chemo is. I said that I agreed, but that if I couldn't take the chemo anymore, I just wouldn't do the Whipple surgery, because I know that the surgery is pointless if you don't achiever the CA19-9 levels in advance of it.

Anyway, just upset this evening. My father is the perfect candidate to be cured. But he has a cancer clinic following 2015 protocol instead of 2025, so my father is thrilled to be done. I now expect to report his demise within 3 years, because he will listen to the outdated oncologist, when i know I could've had 3 more years or more. I hate medicine, and I hate insurance.


Stay strong wbcincy. It’s frustrating.

The only advice I’d offer is to focus on the positive with your parents. They’re going through a lot, much of which they won’t show you. Keep them focused on the good news which will help to keep them moving in the right direction.

You could always consider a second opinion from another oncologist just to see what they say. You get another set of eyes on the situation and either they confirm the current approach as correct or they suggest an alternative. If nothing else, it may help any anxiety on your (and other family members) part in addressing that concern. After that, no matter what your dad chooses, the family can feel good that nothing was left off the table.

Good luck and feel free to vent away.
 
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Stay strong wbcincy. It’s frustrating.

The only advice I’d offer is to focus on the positive with your parents. They’re going through a lot, much of which they won’t show you. Keep them focused on the good news which will help to keep them moving in the right direction.

You could always consider a second opinion from another oncologist just to see what they say. You get another set of eyes on the situation and either they confirm the current approach as correct or they suggest an alternative. If nothing else, it may help any anxiety on your (and other family members) part in addressing that concern. After that, no matter what your dad chooses, the family can feel good that nothing was left off the table.

Good luck and feel free to vent away.

Indeed.

We are all here for you.

Vent away!!
 
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It's just so inconceivable that I know for certain what will give my father the best likelihood of survival, but I'm treated now as though I'm the enemy, because I'm suggesting more suffering to get there.

This may not be the right thing to say, but for many people the extra suffering is just not worth the cost to survive. As a result, they cling to false hope because it is easier than following an extremely difficult road to a possible cure. I have no doubt I would act just as you have, but the treatments you want for your dad may not be what he wants. I am not suggesting you give up on your treatment plan, but just be careful you don't push to far. In the end, it's his decision. Your dad and your family will be in my prayers tonight.

i hear you. I’ve withheld things from my father during this treatment because my mother asked me to. But now it’s decision time. I told her that I don’t want him to do what I want, I want him to do what he wants, but I have to make sure he knows exactly what it is he’s deciding. If I tell him everything and he decides to stop anyway, I can live with that. But I can’t live with letting him make a decisions without offering him what I know. I’ve also tried to explain that I understand how bad the suffering has been for him. That’s part of my point. If he stops now, that suffering will all have been for nothing. While just one or two more treatments could’ve made it all for a purpose.
 
i hear you. I’ve withheld things from my father during this treatment because my mother asked me to. But now it’s decision time. I told her that I don’t want him to do what I want, I want him to do what he wants, but I have to make sure he knows exactly what it is he’s deciding. If I tell him everything and he decides to stop anyway, I can live with that. But I can’t live with letting him make a decisions without offering him what I know. I’ve also tried to explain that I understand how bad the suffering has been for him. That’s part of my point. If he stops now, that suffering will all have been for nothing. While just one or two more treatments could’ve made it all for a purpose.
I now better understand the dynamics at work here and fully agree with your position.. May God bless your efforts and grant healing to your Dad and peace to your family.
 
All I can say is that I’m sorry and I’ll hold you and your family in my thoughts. If something ever happened to me or when something does indeed happen to me, you’d be a hell of an advocate. You’re measured and diligent, you’re family is lucky to have you involved.
 
i hear you. I’ve withheld things from my father during this treatment because my mother asked me to. But now it’s decision time. I told her that I don’t want him to do what I want, I want him to do what he wants, but I have to make sure he knows exactly what it is he’s deciding. If I tell him everything and he decides to stop anyway, I can live with that. But I can’t live with letting him make a decisions without offering him what I know. I’ve also tried to explain that I understand how bad the suffering has been for him. That’s part of my point. If he stops now, that suffering will all have been for nothing. While just one or two more treatments could’ve made it all for a purpose.
It has been fascinating to me, as an apparent survivor of a 3 year battle with a difficult blood cancer, to follow your story. Your brutal honesty in explaining things has been fantastic.

The only thing I can offer you is that early on I had to make a decision between staying on an adult protocol (9 months) that was basically a coin flip in terms of survival or switching to a pediatric protocol (3 years) which has close to a 90% success rate, but is VERY difficult for adults to tolerate in many ways. There was no record of it being tried on someone my age (57 at the time), but the doctor thought I had a chance to tolerate it based on how the adult protocol was going. I opted for it, but a couple months in I wavered as I was miserable about 25 out of every 28 days. I really believe I would have switched back to the adult protocol if not for my wife and especially my kids imploring me to stay with it. I was that miserable.

Two and a half years later I have been in full remission and received my last chemo treatment in October. None of us know what the future holds, but the love and support of my family and friends gave me the strength and courage to endure that brutal, barbaric process.

I realize pancreatic cancer is a different beast, but thought some of the parallels might be helpful to you. Good medicine is imperative, but again the love and support of family and friends is critical in getting someone through these things. Sometimes enduring it only for yourself isn’t enough. As always best of luck to you and your father wb!!
 
I agree with Mrtailgate and the others wishing your Dad the best and to you for all you have done. I would be advocating the same strategy that you are so hopefully you can get a second opinion.
Is your Dad a Vietnam Veteran? I am a Veteran's Advocate for the VA system and I am also Service Connected disabled due to my service in Vietnam. If he is not then nothing more but if he is I would request a private way to communicate more info to you.
 
All I can say is that I’m sorry and I’ll hold you and your family in my thoughts. If something ever happened to me or when something does indeed happen to me, you’d be a hell of an advocate. You’re measured and diligent, you’re family is lucky to have you involved.
He certainly is all of that. Nice post.
 
cincy, you’re a great son. And you, your father and your family are in my prayers. You are absolutely on the right track in your thinking. Your father just has to digest it and decide how hard he wants to fight. He’s been though a lot, and I can certainly understand if you can’t change his mind. We’re here for you ...
 
I would strongly suggest a consult at Sloan Kettering in NYC (not one of their satellites) or Cancer Memorial. Cutting edge treatment is usually at these major centers and takes a few years to trickle down.
 
You’re perfectly justified in your feelings. If you want to PM me, then I can share my experiences on FOLFIRINOX. I can empathize with your dad, albeit with a different, less-aggressive GI cancer.

That chemo regimen sucks and I still suffer from mild neuropathy from the Oxaliplatin two years later. But, I’m alive and cancer free today for doing it and going above and beyond what my initial onco suggested.

There is still way more luck and genetics involved than anyone would like, but pushing to fight is a big part of it. It sounds like your dad has luck and genetics in his favor based on the positive results you mention. Not everyone is so lucky. I can see why you want him to capitalize on this good fortune.
 
I would strongly suggest a consult at Sloan Kettering in NYC (not one of their satellites) or Cancer Memorial. Cutting edge treatment is usually at these major centers and takes a few years to trickle down.
Johns Hopkins as well...
 
It has been fascinating to me, as an apparent survivor of a 3 year battle with a difficult blood cancer, to follow your story. Your brutal honesty in explaining things has been fantastic.

The only thing I can offer you is that early on I had to make a decision between staying on an adult protocol (9 months) that was basically a coin flip in terms of survival or switching to a pediatric protocol (3 years) which has close to a 90% success rate, but is VERY difficult for adults to tolerate in many ways. There was no record of it being tried on someone my age (57 at the time), but the doctor thought I had a chance to tolerate it based on how the adult protocol was going. I opted for it, but a couple months in I wavered as I was miserable about 25 out of every 28 days. I really believe I would have switched back to the adult protocol if not for my wife and especially my kids imploring me to stay with it. I was that miserable.

Two and a half years later I have been in full remission and received my last chemo treatment in October. None of us know what the future holds, but the love and support of my family and friends gave me the strength and courage to endure that brutal, barbaric process.

I realize pancreatic cancer is a different beast, but thought some of the parallels might be helpful to you. Good medicine is imperative, but again the love and support of family and friends is critical in getting someone through these things. Sometimes enduring it only for yourself isn’t enough. As always best of luck to you and your father wb!!

Good for you!

Great news!!!
 
Maybe one day, we can raise a glass together sir and offer up a might cheer for good health for all of us here on the board!

Until that time, I wish you a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!
I would like that! And same back to you sir!
 
Man, you are in a tough spot. Push hard to get the best treatment but risk alienating your own mother and/or father in the process. And it is made more difficult because the older generations had full trust in their doctors and never question them.

Perhaps best to explain it all to your father and then ask them to do a consult with Sloan Kettering or JH. Maybe then he could get advanced treatments without having to travel to either one.

All you can really do is give them the best advice you can, let them make the decisions, and then support them with your full heart and soul.
 
I'm shocked the medical profession still doesn't have anything to help make these treatments less traumatic. Hopefully soon.
My only intersection with any form of Leukemia as a young boy was the movie Brian’s Song. That was traumatic at that age and didn’t end well. The process and results keep getting better, but the side effects do suck. Still a long way to go....
 
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I'm shocked the medical profession still doesn't have anything to help make these treatments less traumatic. Hopefully soon.
Lots and lots of meds. I used to get Lorazepam mainlined into my chemo port right before the Irinotecan portion of treatment. That stuff is pure nasty.

luckily, I was able to get past the nausea the next day. The GI complications, mouth sores, neuropathy, etc didn’t go away easily.

It’s still very much a “lesser evil” approach to treating GI cancers. The hope is that immuno advances quickly.
 
Johns Hopkins as well...

My illness was not cancer related, but I can’t say enough good things about John Hopkins.

I was all but resigned to death, but my wife fought my docs who she knew were dated and wrong in my treatment. She also fought the insurance who did not give a damn.

She got me out of this backwater and into the place that saved me. Don’t give up.
 
We communicate day to day, for the most part anonymously, with one another. And then a thread such as this as well as others come along and remind us of the many serious struggles in life others are facing or have had to deal with. It really is an eye opener. Point is, we should all think twice before getting into arguments and resort to name calling, etc. over relatively unimportant matters. Never know what the other guy may be going through. (My fairgambit message for the day.)
 
If a PET scan is very important, which it appears to be, I would consider simply paying for one on your own and skipping insurance to get it faster. For instance, I used ProScan in Cincinnati to deal with a hip issue that insurance wouldn't pay simply because I wanted to know more about my condition. An MRI at ProScan cost $600 about 3.5 years ago. I had to pay before or immediately after the procedure. My gp told me that ProScan was good and I was happy with the MRI.

One thing to be careful of is that they can charge a fortune ($2000 in my case) to read the MRI. (Because they screwed up some insurance papers, I didn't have to pay it) To get around this issue, just have one of your own specialists read the PET scan.

Don't know whether they do PET scans, but it seems like they should. If not, there ought to be an independent company/practice that will do it at a reasonable price if you pay upfront. You could obviously check with your specialists to make sure that they consider any provider you choose to be competent.
Unless your specialist is a diagnostic radiologist with a fellowship in Nuclear Medicine, then I would advise against having them interpret a PET scan. A PET scan (Positron Emission Tomography) is a totally different imaging technology than an MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) and requires special expertise in the associated complexities of diagnostic imaging to interpret properly. PET CT is the way to go as it adds additional benefits and specificities in image rendering such as attenuation correction.

I also have never heard of a $2000 interpretation fee, as that is just ridiculous and way, way off from the norm. Now the entire PET scan may cost that much, because the radionuclides used in image generation are very expensive. And don’t get me started on ProScan.
 
First, I don't care what anyone else says, you're all a pretty great group of people. Thank you for all the feedback, advice, and prayers.

Is your Dad a Vietnam Veteran? I am a Veteran's Advocate for the VA system and I am also Service Connected disabled due to my service in Vietnam. If he is not then nothing more but if he is I would request a private way to communicate more info to you.

He is not. My brother is 100% service disabled and gets great treatment from the VA. Thank you for what you do as an advocate. I used to be involved in our local veteran's court when I prosecuted, and the advocates like you who would come out to be mentors, provide transportation, and help keep others on the right track are doing some great and noble work.

I'm shocked the medical profession still doesn't have anything to help make these treatments less traumatic. Hopefully soon.

From our experience, it's much better than it once was. My father has been having the same experiences as WestSideLion with neuropathy/cold sensitivity, mouth sores, etc, but has not had to deal with nausea much at all. The first drug he's given when given chemo is an anti-nausea and calming mix. He usually ends up sleeping for a couple hours while the treatment is going on. On the other hand, when my mother's best friend had breast cancer in the early 90s, she was vomiting in the bathroom incessantly. So while it is still a very barbaric thing, there are improvements. I'm afraid there's only so much that can be done absent finding an entirely different type of treatment, because it's tough to counter all the side effects of essentially poisoning someone.
 
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