Penn State faculty fear the school will close campuses across the state

[doctornick]

A lot of kids get screwed if they do all that, forcing them to pay room and board instead of living at home. And there are some poor areas in that list which will exacerbate the situation. It may be necessary, but what comes with it will suck for many.

Penn State could always sell the campuses to the counties who can run schools there as Community Colleges if the goal is to maintain that geographical access. But honestly we are talking about campuses serving a few hundred students at a time - smaller than many high schools - which seems out of whack to be run by a school like PSU where the bulk of the attention is focused on the flagship location.

Dubois is probably the one campus that you can really make an argument that closing it really shuts off access for college in the area - Clarion is probably the only university anywhere close and I don't think there's even any Community Colleges in the area (but if someone knows of some, feel free to correct).

 

[mgkpsu]

Does Scranton have dorms?

No. Hazleton does.

 

[voltz99]

If I was in charge things would be different (No worries, nobody would vote to put me in charge):

I think the biggest problem in some schools is broken families and crappy neighborhoods. Kids hang out in the streets instead of studying and doing homework. If I was in charge I'd extend the school day by 1.5 hours. No sports, band, plays, etc if the kids can't read. Give them a 20 minute break and a snack then use the extra time for tutoring and homework. It would also help single parents because they could work a full day since the kids wouldn't come home until 5:00pm instead of 3:00pm.

Like I said, nobody would vote for me.

The poor lack Two Parents That Give a Chit Privilege.

 

[voltz99]

Part of the ridiculousness is constantly moving kids to the next grade even when they have no mastery of what they needed to learn. This is why you see "students" graduating high school who can't read at all.

Would you prefer 18 year old first graders?

In da hood the student are not there to play school. They are there to hump beetches and play ball.

 

[voltz99]

One major consideration might be location and value of assets. If one is located where they can quickly sell the properties for high dollars they could get some serious cash.

Probably not much demand for defunct college campuses in counties that are losing population and a stagnant economy.

 

[doctornick]

Would you prefer 18 year old first graders?

In da hood the student are not there to play school. They are there to hump beetches and play ball.

I’d prefer people not graduating HS unless they actually have some bare minimum skills. In fact, relevant to this thread, there would be less of a need to go to college to get a good job if a high school diploma was meaningful and a reflection of achieving certain standards.

But to your point, I’d recommend having an alternative school building for students more than (say) 2-3 years behind their “normal” grade level based on age. And also for anyone with multiple previous suspensions etc. get those kids out of a situation where they are disrupting the learning for people who want to be there.

 

[PSU_Nut]

A lot of kids get screwed if they do all that, forcing them to pay room and board instead of living at home. And there are some poor areas in that list which will exacerbate the situation. It may be necessary, but what comes with it will suck for many.

How local should it be? PA is saturated with colleges and universities. Between the state owned universities and the state related universities there is 50+ campuses across the state. Lets take Fayette campus for an example. Yes it is a small poor depressed county and it would be great if their was a school there. However just look at the math. The current population of the county under 18 is 23,420. Assuming they are evenly distributed that about 1,300 per year. Is it realistic to keep a campus open for such a small population, especially when you have two state university campuses 27 minutes away and 40 minutes away? Not to mention there are public community college campuses 12 and 30 minutes away.

 

[PSU_Nut]

They're not the only places and the sad part is that it's not about money.

• In the Buffalo City School District, 26% of elementary students tested proficient or higher in reading, and 18% tested proficient or higher in math
• For middle school students, 25% tested proficient or higher in reading, and 16% tested proficient or higher in math
• For high school students, 69% tested proficient or higher in reading, and 37% tested proficient or higher in math

Both Philadelphia and Buffalo spend 50%+ more than the national average.

Why are they spending more? If you look at the spending numbers you will find the additional money being spent is on things outside of education. A perfect example is due to the high rate of poverty all students receive a free school breakfast and lunch. That is a perfect example of spending that typical school district are nit spending on. Those district are also providing far more pre k services that you don't see at other places. It not cheap to be a "poor" school district.

 

[diontechristmas]

Probably not much demand for defunct college campuses in counties that are losing population and a stagnant economy.

Kids have access to online classes. They should just steer clear of for profit schools.

The PA state schools are hurting big time for students save for a few like West Chester and Slippery Rock. The most remote schools are doing the worst (no surprise).

PA has a ton of branch campuses. PSU, Pitt, Temple and even IUP have branch campuses. What PA does poorly is community colleges, especially outside of the larger population areas. I grew up in the coal region and there were zero community colleges nearby in tv day when one had to physically attend class. Many of my high school classmates ended up at places like McAnn School of Business as they had local buildings and pushy admissions reps. They paid way more than they should have for worthless 2 year degrees. That is the population that should be served by community colleges to receive career training or transferable credits.

 

[rmem]

How local should it be? PA is saturated with colleges and universities. Between the state owned universities and the state related universities there is 50+ campuses across the state. Lets take Fayette campus for an example. Yes it is a small poor depressed county and it would be great if their was a school there. However just look at the math. The current population of the county under 18 is 23,420. Assuming they are evenly distributed that about 1,300 per year. Is it realistic to keep a campus open for such a small population, especially when you have two state university campuses 27 minutes away and 40 minutes away? Not to mention there are public community college campuses 12 and 30 minutes away.

I don't know if you can cherry-pick one single example and say it applies to everyone. And I bet there are campuses without other options that close by. Then there is the issue of the quality of those other options.

 

[JWB389]

No. Hazleton does.

Yep, I lived in them for two years back in the day. I would think the location with available on campus housing would be more valuable than the others. Question is, is it more valuable to keep or to sell? The Hazleton campus is obviously small but it sits on a great piece of property IMO. I always thought it was a nice little campus.

I’ve kept quiet on this subject, but I have a vested interest because my wife is on the staff at one of the campuses that will remain open. Would rather not explain the details, but there is a scenario where she could get bumped out if people start moving from closed campuses to those that will remain open. Sucks, because she loves it there.

Branch campuses get a bad rap, probably unfairly. Her prior experience was at an overpriced private liberal arts college. She says the PSU branch students are completely different than her prior experience. No surprise, I’m sure. A lot of these PSU kids are first generation college students. Very different socioeconomic background. Dare I say much nicer to work with on a daily basis. More importantly, these kids are smart. She finds many just did not have the hand up that would have made them UPark students. That’s a value the campus system brings to these regions. Just my 2 cents.

 

[JWB389]

I don't know if you can cherry-pick one single example and say it applies to everyone. And I bet there are campuses without other options that close by. Then there is the issue of the quality of those other options.

Not sure if it is available to the public, but the campus staff has access to a map that shows the plan that was laid out. It is interesting and obvious to see the regions impacted the most. I. E., consolidation/closures in the Northeast and Southwest. Not touching the southeastern part of the state.

 

[diontechristmas]

Yep, I lived in them for two years back in the day. I would think the location with available on campus housing would be more valuable than the others. Question is, is it more valuable to keep or to sell? The Hazleton campus is obviously small but it sits on a great piece of property IMO. I always thought it was a nice little campus.

I’ve kept quiet on this subject, but I have a vested interest because my wife is on the staff at one of the campuses that will remain open. Would rather not explain the details, but there is a scenario where she could get bumped out if people start moving from closed campuses to those that will remain open. Sucks, because she loves it there.

My dad worked at the Hazleton campus many years ago and I spent a lot of time there. IIRC they added a bunch of dorms in the 90’s and had around 1,300 students at one point. I think it’s down to around 500 now.

The demand is just way down and I’m sure it’s projected to shrink even more in the next 10-15 years. The campus itself is beautiful. The former estate of John Markle who was an area coal baron and his heirs donated the property in the 50’s I believe for the campus.

I don’t know who could take the place over. There are no major employers in the area needing that space and they’d be hard pressed to attract another school.

 

[Obliviax]

My wife had a case where the new superintendent fired a long-time teacher and she called to see if she could sue him. After doing a bunch of research, the new super got his PhD from a college that sounded very much like a major university but was a small, mostly online, school. There you could get your PhD within weeks. So we looked up the school's accreditation and it turns out there are dozens of organizations that offer accreditation. Some are recognized by the DOE and some are not. But who would know what is a legit accreditation service and what is not?

it turns out that there are schools popping up everywhere with these "accreditations" and online classes where you can get your BA/S degree in months. You can get your Masters or PhD in weeks. And when you get these and put them on your resume, who knows how good your education is?

It is turning into a big scam.

 

[JWB389]

My dad worked at the Hazleton campus many years ago and I spent a lot of time there. IIRC they added a bunch of dorms in the 90’s and had around 1,300 students at one point. I think it’s down to around 500 now.

The demand is just way down and I’m sure it’s projected to shrink even more in the next 10-15 years. The campus itself is beautiful. The former estate of John Markle who was an area coal baron and his heirs donated the property in the 50’s I believe for the campus.

I don’t know who could take the place over. There are no major employers in the area needing that space and they’d be hard pressed to attract another school.

I was there fall 85 through spring 87. Think the newer dorms opened Fall 87 or shortly there after. They were nearly complete when I was leaving.

Maybe I knew your father?

 

[The Spin Meister]

Not sure if it is available to the public, but the campus staff has access to a map that shows the plan that was laid out. It is interesting and obvious to see the regions impacted the most. I. E., consolidation/closures in the Northeast and Southwest. Not touching the southeastern part of the state.

SE Pa never gets touched. Too much political power.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Yep, I lived in them for two years back in the day. I would think the location with available on campus housing would be more valuable than the others. Question is, is it more valuable to keep or to sell? The Hazleton campus is obviously small but it sits on a great piece of property IMO. I always thought it was a nice little campus.

I’ve kept quiet on this subject, but I have a vested interest because my wife is on the staff at one of the campuses that will remain open. Would rather not explain the details, but there is a scenario where she could get bumped out if people start moving from closed campuses to those that will remain open. Sucks, because she loves it there.

Branch campuses get a bad rap, probably unfairly. Her prior experience was at an overpriced private liberal arts college. She says the PSU branch students are completely different than her prior experience. No surprise, I’m sure. A lot of these PSU kids are first generation college students. Very different socioeconomic background. Dare I say much nicer to work with on a daily basis. More importantly, these kids are smart. She finds many just did not have the hand up that would have made them UPark students. That’s a value the campus system brings to these regions. Just my 2 cents.

Lot of branch campus kids hsve jobs and are working their way through. These are serious about education instead of partying and football. The ‘life experience’.

It’s also a good transition from high school. College is really different and this gives kids time to adapt. And with smaller class sizes they can get the attention they need and build confidence as they move up.

 

[diontechristmas]

I was there fall 85 through spring 87. Think the newer dorms opened Fall 87 or shortly there after. They were nearly complete when I was leaving.

Maybe I knew your father?

Probably not, he worked in maintenance after that point, but I have great memories of the Hazleton campus. They let me use the weight room, courts etc when I wanted. My dad was even friends with a math prof who helped me with my homework a few times.

Maybe I’m misremembering but I thought some additional dorms were built later as well but I could very well be wrong.

 

[doctornick]

My dad worked at the Hazleton campus many years ago and I spent a lot of time there. IIRC they added a bunch of dorms in the 90’s and had around 1,300 students at one point. I think it’s down to around 500 now.

The demand is just way down and I’m sure it’s projected to shrink even more in the next 10-15 years. The campus itself is beautiful. The former estate of John Markle who was an area coal baron and his heirs donated the property in the 50’s I believe for the campus.

I don’t know who could take the place over. There are no major employers in the area needing that space and they’d be hard pressed to attract another school.

Yes, that's the thing. It's great in concept to support PSU having a presence in all corners of the state and to quote some "90% of the the state live within 45 minutes of a PSU campus" or whatever but the reality is that some of these more rural and isolated campuses are poorly attended and we are going to see an "enrollment cliff" where even fewer students are graduating from high school/going to college. In an ideal world, these campuses could be run by the counties as community colleges and be more streamlined and cheaper - would probably mean less courses and options and maybe shuttering some of the buildings/classrooms but might be a better alternative than being run by PSU and having to maintain certain standards/rules to be consistent with the whole system.

I don't really envy PSU leadership for what they have to do and you know that the state legislators are not going to be happy when a campus gets shut down in their district but choices need to be made. In the era of online education, having a campus 15 minutes away just isn't as important.

 

[doctornick]

SE Pa never gets touched. Too much political power.

The SE corner of the state is the most densely populated area and the two Philly area undergrad campuses have fairly decent enrollment numbers. I don't think there is anything nefarious about continuing to run those campuses.

I would expect both the Pittsburgh area as well as Scranton/Wilkes Barre to continue to have PSU presence, just with some consolidation among the existing campuses.

Regarding Pittsburgh, my gut feeling is that having Pitt and Pitt-Greensburg in the area depresses the need/enrollment for PSU campuses there even more as they are likely splitting a lot of the same potential student base. Perhaps the same might be said for Temple in Philly, but I don't think the overlap is as strong for potential students between PSU vs Temple the way it is for PSU vs Pitt.

 

[diontechristmas]

Yes, that's the thing. It's great in concept to support PSU having a presence in all corners of the state and to quote some "90% of the the state live within 45 minutes of a PSU campus" or whatever but the reality is that some of these more rural and isolated campuses are poorly attended and we are going to see an "enrollment cliff" where even fewer students are graduating from high school/going to college. In an ideal world, these campuses could be run by the counties as community colleges and be more streamlined and cheaper - would probably mean less courses and options and maybe shuttering some of the buildings/classrooms but might be a better alternative than being run by PSU and having to maintain certain standards/rules to be consistent with the whole system.

I don't really envy PSU leadership for what they have to do and you know that the state legislators are not going to be happen when a campus gets shut down in their district but choices need to be made. In the era of online education, having a campus 15 minutes away just isn't as important.

State Legislators will of course grandstand but in the case of PSU I find it very hypocritical given the state barely funds the university. A single state rep has basically zero say in how the university is funded by the state after decades of precedent but they really gave up “control” long ago by refusing to fund PSU.

There wasn’t a lot of strategy on how these campuses were created in the 1st place. In the case of Hazleton, it says local community leaders “petitioned” PSU to grant a charter for a local branch and they bootstrapped some classroom space until the now campus was donated.

 

[PurposePitch]

What percentage of branch campus attendees eventually feed into University Park?

What percentage of branch campus attendees could have been granted admission to University Park when they initially applied, but preferred to attend a branch campus first?

 

[mgkpsu]

The SE corner of the state is the most densely populated area and the two Philly area undergrad campuses have fairly decent enrollment numbers. I don't think there is anything nefarious about continuing to run those campuses.

I would expect both the Pittsburgh area as well as Scranton/Wilkes Barre to continue to have PSU presence, just with some consolidation among the existing campuses.

Regarding Pittsburgh, my gut feeling is that having Pitt and Pitt-Greensburg in the area depresses the need/enrollment for PSU campuses there even more as they are likely splitting a lot of the same potential student base. Perhaps the same might be said for Temple in Philly, but I don't think the overlap is as strong for potential students between PSU vs Temple the way it is for PSU vs Pitt.

As has already been stated, Wilkes-Barre and Scranton do not have dorms.

 

[voltz99]

I’d prefer people not graduating HS unless they actually have some bare minimum skills. In fact, relevant to this thread, there would be less of a need to go to college to get a good job if a high school diploma was meaningful and a reflection of achieving certain standards.

But to your point, I’d recommend having an alternative school building for students more than (say) 2-3 years behind their “normal” grade level based on age. And also for anyone with multiple previous suspensions etc. get those kids out of a situation where they are disrupting the learning for people who want to be there.

The left would call that racist and culturally biased.

We already have schools for students 2-3+ years behind. Those are the inner city public schools. The good kids who care about education and don't want to get assaulted are forced to leave and find charters.

 

[The Spin Meister]

I’d prefer people not graduating HS unless they actually have some bare minimum skills. In fact, relevant to this thread, there would be less of a need to go to college to get a good job if a high school diploma was meaningful and a reflection of achieving certain standards.

But to your point, I’d recommend having an alternative school building for students more than (say) 2-3 years behind their “normal” grade level based on age. And also for anyone with multiple previous suspensions etc. get those kids out of a situation where they are disrupting the learning for people who want to be there.

I have said for years that any kid not going off to college should be allowed to get a job or join a trade union at age 16. Lots of kids in family-owned businesses like machine shop, auto shop, construction, agriculture and more.

Go to school one day a week with documentation of the job, teach the basics of life skills like budget, loans/credit cards, investing/IRA, insurance, healthcare, homeownership.

Kids not heading to college hate their senior year. Just a waste. Let them start a career with option to return if desired.

Free up some education money and classroom space.

 

[PSU_Nut]

I don't know if you can cherry-pick one single example and say it applies to everyone. And I bet there are campuses without other options that close by. Then there is the issue of the quality of those other options.

You would be hard pressed to find one. Here are a few other:
Penn State Abington Temple 24 min Penn State Brandywine 35 min West Chester 40 min
Penn State Shenango Slippery Rock 40 min and Penn State Beaver 53 min
Penn State Wilkesboro Penn State Scranton 37 min and Bloomsburg 57 min
Penn State Lehigh Valley Kutztown 30 min and East Stroudsburg 45 min
Penn State DuBois Lock Haven at Clearfield 30 min Clarion 35 min IUP Punxy 35 min, IUP 1 Hr

 

[PSU_Nut]

Penn State could always sell the campuses to the counties who can run schools there as Community Colleges if the goal is to maintain that geographical access. But honestly we are talking about campuses serving a few hundred students at a time - smaller than many high schools - which seems out of whack to be run by a school like PSU where the bulk of the attention is focused on the flagship location.

Dubois is probably the one campus that you can really make an argument that closing it really shuts off access for college in the area - Clarion is probably the only university anywhere close and I don't think there's even any Community Colleges in the area (but if someone knows of some, feel free to correct).

DuBois has Lock Haven at Clearfield 30 minutes away, Clarion and IUP Punxy both 35 minutes away and IUP 1 hour away. All for a county with a under 18 population of 14,184.

 

[bdgan]

I have said for years that any kid not going off to college should be allowed to get a job or join a trade union at age 16. Lots of kids in family-owned businesses like machine shop, auto shop, construction, agriculture and more.

Go to school one day a week with documentation of the job, teach the basics of life skills like budget, loans/credit cards, investing/IRA, insurance, healthcare, homeownership.

Kids not heading to college hate their senior year. Just a waste. Let them start a career with option to return if desired.

Free up some education money and classroom space.

In my city there are programs sponsored by local manufacturers and offered to high school graduates. You work for 2 1.2 days per week and attend trade school 2 1/2 days but you get paid for 40 hours. I think this includes everything from plumbers to welders to machinists, to home construction.

 

[bison13]

Why are they spending more? If you look at the spending numbers you will find the additional money being spent is on things outside of education. A perfect example is due to the high rate of poverty all students receive a free school breakfast and lunch. That is a perfect example of spending that typical school district are nit spending on. Those district are also providing far more pre k services that you don't see at other places. It not cheap to be a "poor" school district.

True but working in Baltimore city, there is plenty of money thats going to the wrong places. Hell, my position, trying to mentor/help brand new teachers, is on the chopping block every year, but hundreds of other 'board level' or 'administrative' positions are not needed. We have a professional development team that has given the same terrible presentations for the last 3 years. We have whole departments that do actual work about 25 times a year but each make 150K. We have split almost all of our HS into smaller community based schools but still have 4 and 5 administrators in charge of 650 students. Surrounding counties would only have 3 admin.

So while yes pre K and lunches are part of the spending, there is so much waste that they can cut millions easily.