ADVERTISEMENT

Penn State faculty fear the school will close campuses across the state

It's amazing that proficiency is in the 20%-40% range but the graduation rate is over 80%.
In state standardized testing there are 4 score ranges, Advanced (Above grade level), Proficient (grade level), Basic (can do the basics, so below grade level) and Below basic (barely able to read/do math at a primary grade level). Not only does Baltimore have proficiency ratings in the teens and 20's for reading and math but the below basic is over 50%
 
  • Like
Reactions: bdroc
GjNbyLmWUAAWsh_
She inherited the financial situation both at University Park and the commonwealth campuses. She's just the one taking the blame for making necessary cuts.

I worked for a large company that cut employees and consolidated operations that were operating far below capacity. After the restructuring the company brought in new leadership because employees despised the CEO/division presidents who made the tough decisions.

I don't know if Bendipudi is doing a good job or not. My point is that somebody has to be the bad guy and people won't like it.
 
In state standardized testing there are 4 score ranges, Advanced (Above grade level), Proficient (grade level), Basic (can do the basics, so below grade level) and Below basic (barely able to read/do math at a primary grade level). Not only does Baltimore have proficiency ratings in the teens and 20's for reading and math but the below basic is over 50%
If I was in charge things would be different (No worries, nobody would vote to put me in charge):

I think the biggest problem in some schools is broken families and crappy neighborhoods. Kids hang out in the streets instead of studying and doing homework. If I was in charge I'd extend the school day by 1.5 hours. No sports, band, plays, etc if the kids can't read. Give them a 20 minute break and a snack then use the extra time for tutoring and homework. It would also help single parents because they could work a full day since the kids wouldn't come home until 5:00pm instead of 3:00pm.

Like I said, nobody would vote for me.
 
She inherited the financial situation both at University Park and the commonwealth campuses. She's just the one taking the blame for making necessary cuts.

I worked for a large company that cut employees and consolidated operations that were operating far below capacity. After the restructuring the company brought in new leadership because employees despised the CEO/division presidents who made the tough decisions.

I don't know if Bendipudi is doing a good job or not. My point is that somebody has to be the bad guy and people won't like it.

Yeah, I suspect this is true. The letter seems to tie into the main point of this thread which is that it seems inevitable that many of the Commonwealth Campuses will be closed and the Faculty Senate (which has many members from those campuses) is trying to get out in front of it. Honestly, the best move for Neeli is probably to just "rip the band aid off" and get it over with and close/merge campuses ASAP rather than dragging it out and having infighting.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GSPMax and bdroc
If I was in charge things would be different (No worries, nobody would vote to put me in charge):

I think the biggest problem in some schools is broken families and crappy neighborhoods. Kids hang out in the streets instead of studying and doing homework. If I was in charge I'd extend the school day by 1.5 hours. No sports, band, plays, etc if the kids can't read. Give them a 20 minute break and a snack then use the extra time for tutoring and homework. It would also help single parents because they could work a full day since the kids wouldn't come home until 5:00pm instead of 3:00pm.

Like I said, nobody would vote for me.

It's not bad, but ultimately I don't think there is anything a school can do if the child doesn't have proper support at home. Like you could through virtually unlimited funds at the students and have all sorts of programs and nothing will change if they don't have a home environment that encourages academics (via reading, writing, doing homework, encouraging problem solving, and simply making sure they are completing the assigned work for school). Reading to your kids at like age 2 makes a tremendous difference in how well they perform in high school - it's whether there is a base to build upon for learning. I really don't know the answer, but I also think that simply spending more money and not getting any change ends up just being the proverbial "spending good money after bad".

Part of the ridiculousness is constantly moving kids to the next grade even when they have no mastery of what they needed to learn. This is why you see "students" graduating high school who can't read at all.
 
In state standardized testing there are 4 score ranges, Advanced (Above grade level), Proficient (grade level), Basic (can do the basics, so below grade level) and Below basic (barely able to read/do math at a primary grade level). Not only does Baltimore have proficiency ratings in the teens and 20's for reading and math but the below basic is over 50%
And that doesn’t count the 40% of boys that drop out.
 
They're not the only places and the sad part is that it's not about money.
  • In the Buffalo City School District, 26% of elementary students tested proficient or higher in reading, and 18% tested proficient or higher in math
  • For middle school students, 25% tested proficient or higher in reading, and 16% tested proficient or higher in math
  • For high school students, 69% tested proficient or higher in reading, and 37% tested proficient or higher in math
Both Philadelphia and Buffalo spend 50%+ more than the national average.
Things cost more when in urban and denser-populated environments. It's crazy like that.
 
  • In 2023-2024, 34.2% of Philadelphia students in grades 3-8 scored proficient or above in English Language Arts (ELA)

  • In 2023-2024, 21.8% of Philadelphia students in grades 3-8 scored proficient or above in math

  • In 2023-2024, 41.3% of Philadelphia students in grades 4 and 8 scored proficient or above in science
Now do rural areas.

I did a quick search for "math reading proficiency rural schools pennsylvania" ... one of the first links was to Sugar Valley Charter (yay charter schools!) ... I have no idea what this school is ... I don't even know where it's located ... it's likely in Pennsyltucky somewhere ...

At Sugar Valley Rural Charter School, 22% of students scored at or above the proficient level for math, and 33% scored at or above that level for reading.

Of course, this is all some kind of nonsense, since every state sets their own proficiency levels ... PA could simply change their testing or levels and ... boom ... everyone is more proficient!

Massachusetts has MCAS testing, which is similar to the type of testing that most states have adopted, in general format ... they have 4 buckets ... "Exceeds Expectations," "Meets Expectations," "Partially Meets Expectations," and "Not Meeting Expectations." Of course, the way it's set up, in some subject matter sub-areas, you can't exceed expectations. The questions either indicate you know it, or you don't. Like, when they were really little, a bucket was whether they knew their numbers to 100. Either you did (meets) or you didn't (does not meet). Brilliant. Regardless, my older son, through the years, hovered at the lower end of "exceeds expectations" and the higher end of "meets expectations." Without knowing any better, one may think that he was an OK student ... a bit above average, maybe ...

He just had a perfect score on the math section of his PSAT, an almost perfect on the verbal, and he's a straight A student taking the toughest course-load possible (maxed out AP courses, Honors for the rest, multiple math/science courses, no "fun" courses for a break from the rat race).

Point being ... context matters. What is and is not considered "proficient" matters.
 
Last edited:
If I was in charge things would be different (No worries, nobody would vote to put me in charge):

I think the biggest problem in some schools is broken families and crappy neighborhoods. Kids hang out in the streets instead of studying and doing homework. If I was in charge I'd extend the school day by 1.5 hours. No sports, band, plays, etc if the kids can't read. Give them a 20 minute break and a snack then use the extra time for tutoring and homework. It would also help single parents because they could work a full day since the kids wouldn't come home until 5:00pm instead of 3:00pm.

Like I said, nobody would vote for me.
The greatest correlating factor in a childs likelihood of academic success is a two parent home who both have higher education. Next is just two parent homes, even without advanced education. People try to says its money or zip code but go look at those with $ or their zip, they are all two parent households.

I've worked in that system and many others like it, they do everything backwards. They say you cant take sports away or the kid will never try or will stop coming to school, but then they pass the kid anyway because they dont want the bad pub because the community only cares about the kid if they can play, not if they can read. Instead of holding kids and parents accountable, they entitle them by asking for their input on things and then they get empowered and everytime junior gets in trouble they walk in like they own the place, or instead of discipline for bad behavior the kids are told they should think about their decisions, which leads to time out of class, so the kids do the same stuff again.

Certain groups are always claiming 'privilege' for another group but in public schools those crying are the ones who really have it. Large city public school systems are like the government with regard to hiring, way to many people working at the BOE and not enough in the school buildings. You should see some of the unqualified people 'working' at the BOE for Baltimore city, 100K+ jobs and they never come in or do anything but surf the web. They have mandates by the BOE to have a certain percent of AA adults working in certain schools, so the entire custodial staff and the entire 'security' staffs are AA to make their ratios look good. BUt then the school looks terrible because the custodial staff doesn't clean and the security staff is pulling girls out of class to try and hook up. I've seen both of those in person, in one school the head custodian actually told the principal that emptying the the trash can outside the main entrance to the stadium was not his responsibility because it was not all trash from their students. The principal got on him and before the end of the day the principal had an email saying that it was only a suggested job of the custodian, and that further public embarrassment of the head custodian would lead to the principal being reprimanded. Real sad state of affairs in city schools.
 
The greatest correlating factor in a childs likelihood of academic success is a two parent home who both have higher education. Next is just two parent homes, even without advanced education. People try to says its money or zip code but go look at those with $ or their zip, they are all two parent households.

I've worked in that system and many others like it, they do everything backwards. They say you cant take sports away or the kid will never try or will stop coming to school, but then they pass the kid anyway because they dont want the bad pub because the community only cares about the kid if they can play, not if they can read. Instead of holding kids and parents accountable, they entitle them by asking for their input on things and then they get empowered and everytime junior gets in trouble they walk in like they own the place, or instead of discipline for bad behavior the kids are told they should think about their decisions, which leads to time out of class, so the kids do the same stuff again.

Certain groups are always claiming 'privilege' for another group but in public schools those crying are the ones who really have it. Large city public school systems are like the government with regard to hiring, way to many people working at the BOE and not enough in the school buildings. You should see some of the unqualified people 'working' at the BOE for Baltimore city, 100K+ jobs and they never come in or do anything but surf the web. They have mandates by the BOE to have a certain percent of AA adults working in certain schools, so the entire custodial staff and the entire 'security' staffs are AA to make their ratios look good. BUt then the school looks terrible because the custodial staff doesn't clean and the security staff is pulling girls out of class to try and hook up. I've seen both of those in person, in one school the head custodian actually told the principal that emptying the the trash can outside the main entrance to the stadium was not his responsibility because it was not all trash from their students. The principal got on him and before the end of the day the principal had an email saying that it was only a suggested job of the custodian, and that further public embarrassment of the head custodian would lead to the principal being reprimanded. Real sad state of affairs in city schools.
Money magazine did an interesting study 20+ years ago. They tried to identify the best public high school in each of the biggest Metropolitan areas of the country. They did this based on things like graduation rates and standardized test scores.

Then they studied these successful schools to determine what they had in common. IIRC they used about 10 criteria. The end result was that the thing most had in common was a high degree of parental involvement. The criteria they had least in common was spending per pupil.

My personal story is that I grew up in a lower middle class family. Both parents graduated high school but certainly not college. My elementary school was overcrowded so for 2 years they bussed us to an old wooden 4 room schoolhouse. My schools were no frills. One meal choice for lunch, no artificial turf athletic fields, no dedicated art or band room, etc. The one thing I had going for me was my parents read to me when I was young and they always asked me about my homework. They attended open houses and got progress reports from my teachers. I can't imagine not being proficient at reading and math. Bottom line: It's not about spending. You can learn the basics in an old 4 room schoolhouse.
 
It's not bad, but ultimately I don't think there is anything a school can do if the child doesn't have proper support at home. Like you could through virtually unlimited funds at the students and have all sorts of programs and nothing will change if they don't have a home environment that encourages academics (via reading, writing, doing homework, encouraging problem solving, and simply making sure they are completing the assigned work for school). Reading to your kids at like age 2 makes a tremendous difference in how well they perform in high school - it's whether there is a base to build upon for learning. I really don't know the answer, but I also think that simply spending more money and not getting any change ends up just being the proverbial "spending good money after bad".

Part of the ridiculousness is constantly moving kids to the next grade even when they have no mastery of what they needed to learn. This is why you see "students" graduating high school who can't read at all.
That reminds me of a story Rob Henderson told. Without getting into too much detail, Rob Henderson had a very tumultuous childhood in various foster homes and later was adopted and then his adoptive parents divorced, yadda, yadda. Very tough upbringing. He finished high school, spent eight years in the military, which helped him get his act together greatly, then got into Yale on some special program even though he had about a 2.2 GPA in high school, then graduated Year with a degree in Psychology, then went to Caimbridge where he recently finished his PhD in Psychology. He wrote a book about his childhood named Troubled that is very good.

But anyway, he tells the story of how at one point when he was in the early grades of school they had him tested for a learning disability because he was doing poorly in school. It didn't occur to the people at the school that maybe the reason he was doing badly was because the rest of his life was completely messed up at the time and so doing well in school wasn't a priority for him.

Look up his writings or YouTube videos if you're into that kind of stuff. He is really sharp and interesting. He's the guy that coined the term luxury beliefs.
 
Money magazine did an interesting study 20+ years ago. They tried to identify the best public high school in each of the biggest Metropolitan areas of the country. They did this based on things like graduation rates and standardized test scores.

Then they studied these successful schools to determine what they had in common. IIRC they used about 10 criteria. The end result was that the thing most had in common was a high degree of parental involvement. The criteria they had least in common was spending per pupil.

My personal story is that I grew up in a lower middle class family. Both parents graduated high school but certainly not college. My elementary school was overcrowded so for 2 years they bussed us to an old wooden 4 room schoolhouse. My schools were no frills. One meal choice for lunch, no artificial turf athletic fields, no dedicated art or band room, etc. The one thing I had going for me was my parents read to me when I was young and they always asked me about my homework. They attended open houses and got progress reports from my teachers. I can't imagine not being proficient at reading and math. Bottom line: It's not about spending. You can learn the basics in an old 4 room schoolhouse.
Holy cow, are you from Southwest Pennsylvania because that sounds exactly like my elementary school experience. They bussed all of the first graders a mile down the road to a building that had four rooms and a bathroom in it and that’s where we all went to school for the day.
 
Holy cow, are you from Southwest Pennsylvania because that sounds exactly like my elementary school experience. They bussed all of the first graders a mile down the road to a building that had four rooms and a bathroom in it and that’s where we all went to school for the day.

What's a bus?
 
  • Like
Reactions: bison13
You’re exactly right about the bus stops, I hate that they state that any kid that lives within a mile of the school has to walk to it but then they pick up kids on the bus by stopping every 25 feet. Makes centralized location so that kids have to walk at least a few hundred yards if there’s a sidewalk where they can walk.
 
  • Like
Reactions: joeaubie21
You’re exactly right about the bus stops, I hate that they state that any kid that lives within a mile of the school has to walk to it but then they pick up kids on the bus by stopping every 25 feet. Makes centralized location so that kids have to walk at least a few hundred yards if there’s a sidewalk where they can walk.

There were no buses when I was a kid. Hardly any perverts either.
 
It's not bad, but ultimately I don't think there is anything a school can do if the child doesn't have proper support at home. Like you could through virtually unlimited funds at the students and have all sorts of programs and nothing will change if they don't have a home environment that encourages academics (via reading, writing, doing homework, encouraging problem solving, and simply making sure they are completing the assigned work for school). Reading to your kids at like age 2 makes a tremendous difference in how well they perform in high school - it's whether there is a base to build upon for learning. I really don't know the answer, but I also think that simply spending more money and not getting any change ends up just being the proverbial "spending good money after bad".

Part of the ridiculousness is constantly moving kids to the next grade even when they have no mastery of what they needed to learn. This is why you see "students" graduating high school who can't read at all.
One of the big problems all of the school in the greater Washington, DC area is that of chronic truancy; a significant portion of the kids are missing more than 40% of the class time. I can't think of anything a school system can do for a student that isn't in class enough to learn, nor can I think of anything they can do to get the students to show up.
 
One of the big problems all of the school in the greater Washington, DC area is that of chronic truancy; a significant portion of the kids are missing more than 40% of the class time. I can't think of anything a school system can do for a student that isn't in class enough to learn, nor can I think of anything they can do to get the students to show up.
Arrest the parent(s).
 
It's someone's story. And it has pictures, too. That's right up your alley - a picture book for story time.

Listen, guy. Paterno didn't launch the grand expansion of PSU in enrollment and reputation. It was WELL underway before Paterno took the reins of the football squad, as enrollment numbers show. And it happened for obvious reasons (some of which I already referenced) largely having nothing to do with Paterno, or the football team. Expansion actually ground to a halt as Paterno was establishing the football program as top notch. The myth of Paterno was a nice story. It is, as you cuckoo birds like to say ... fake news.
So Joe had nothing to do with enrollment increasing and the school gaining a national reputation? If Joe never lived and we had a terrible football program for 5 decades with multiple bad coaches the university would have been in the same position?
 
Exactly. Go learn a trade. These colleges are a rip off.
Trade school is a great option for some but not everyone. You certainly don't need to go to these over priced $70K a year private colleges to be successful and yes I am looking at you too, Ivy league, Duke, Stanford, etc. Every school is over priced including PSU. Community college for two years then on to a state school is a good, solid option. It is not the school you go to but the individual and their drive and motivation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bison13
Trade school is a great option for some but not everyone. You certainly don't need to go to these over priced $70K a year private colleges to be successful and yes I am looking at you too, Ivy league, Duke, Stanford, etc. Every school is over priced including PSU. Community college for two years then on to a state school is a good, solid option. It is not the school you go to but the individual and their drive and motivation.
There has to be a job at the end of the process or it's a waste of time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bison13
There needs to be a rethink of organization and funding from the state. Why (other than for political reasons) are there 4 state related universities in PA (PSU, Pitt, Temple, Lincoln)? Both Pitt and PSU have branch campuses across the state. Then add in other state funded schools (PSSHE like Shippensburg, Lock Haven, Edinboro, etc) often with them being relatively close to one another.
Send in Elon.
 
I have been saying for several years that the entire university system is at risk. There is no longer any need to go to college for 4-5 yrs. And that means big time football is at risk.

Below is a link to a Fox Business story from yesterday that opens by saying that companies are quickly dropping degree requirements. The best and brightest are getting hired young and trained on the job.

Guy interviewed said average age of the Apollo moon project was only 25. Then said the same was true of the Manhattan Project that developed the first atomic bomb during WWII. Which I found stunning.

 
Last edited:
A big part of the room and board cost problem is on the students. They didnt want to live in dorm rooms. They wanted suites with private baths and single bedrooms. That chit costs money. Today they have on campus suites with granite counters.
Somewhere in the early 2000s, colleges across the nation, amid burgeoning demand and fierce competition for students, stopped talking about the value of college being the degree and the oppty it presented in life, and started talking about the student experience. It became amount amenities, shiny buildings, and everything you mention. Its all paid for by never-ending cheap govt loan money.
$150K to get a $50K job. The economics are bad. The bubble is huge. Many branch campuses and small private universities will collapse when it bursts. Many smaller public universities will as well (see the current consolidation of PA state universities as a pre-cursor to doors shuttering).
It can't happen fast enough. Gen Z is basically F'd. Need to make sure Gen A has a chance.
 
The defunding caused tuition to be raised. 70% of the school’s revenue was from the state in the 70’s, now it’s less than 10%. Socialism was rampant, apparently, in the 70’s.

Was even more rampant during the '50s and 60s, the era of Pax Americana.

Defunding schools and rising tuition debt has a socio-economic cost as people delay getting married, buying a home, etc.

But this has also been a godsend for what was once known as Sallie Mae (after one party insisted that it go private).

The former CEO after privatization became so wealthy that instead of joining a no. of golf clubs across the greater DC metro area, built his own private club in Maryland.
 
Last edited:
  • Angry
Reactions: The Spin Meister
I have been saying for several years that the entire university system is at risk. There is no longer any need to go to college for 4-5 yrs. And that means big time football is at risk.

Below is a link to a Fox Business story from yesterday that opens by saying that companies are quickly dropping degree requirements. The best and brightest are getting hired young and trained on the job.

Guy interviewed said average age of the Apollo moon project was only 25. Then said the same was true of the Manhattan Project that developed the first atomic bomb during WWII. Which I found stunning.


The average age of the Apollo mission controllers is listed at various ages from various sources - from 25 to 32. But they all held relevant degrees.

The youngest member of the Manhattan Project was a kid who skipped grades, and was 18 when he graduated from Harvard and joined the Manhattan Project. And he was a Soviet spy.

There is a push for the establishment of an Idiocracy. Once we drop basic standards (like a college degree), we can then make up any and all "qualifications" and competencies, to allow us to determine anything is acceptable. The exceptions to our current system should only be wunderkind folks ... but what will happen if we get away from basic standards is we'll devolve. And certain segments want that. Makes them easier to mold into the cult.
 
The cost for all "good" flagship public schools is very expensive for out of state students. You can get some good merit aid at a number of not as highly ranked SEC and Big 12 public schools which is why there has been an influx of students from the north going to schools like Bama, Ole Miss, Georgia, South Carolina, etc but any flagship public school in the Northeast down through North Carolina or upper Midwest is going be expensive. (West Virginia is the one exception.)

That's just the reality though that Top 100 schools - including PSU - have no problem filling their student body with people who are willing to pay the going Cost of Attendance. If you want a more affordable education, you either stay in your state and go to a public or you go to a private that is going to give a lot of merit aid (or be of a family of lesser means that will qualify for substantial need based aid). Penn State is in no way any sort of outlier regarding its cost for out of state students among its peers.
I was talking about in state students attending commonwealth campuses. Slightly lower tuition and most can commute and avoid room and board costs. I think many are motivated to attend main campus because they don't have to pay until the graduate (student loans). I think many more would attend commonwealth campuses or community college if they had to pay as you go. It's like buying a car. A lot of people look at monthly payments and ignore the total cost.

A lot of state schools are expensive for out of state students. Those people should consider staying in state and/or attending community college in their area. That said I remember one of my kids receiving huge scholarship offers from several schools in Ohio. They really wanted to attract out of state kids.
 
I'm sure there will be a lot of complaining and protesting, but it seems pretty reasonable to me to look at the campuses they are looking at and closing some (or even most) of them. Each of the campuses being looked at have fewer than 900 students - it cannot be cost effective to run these when they are smaller than many public high schools.

It seems like some pretty easy options:
Consolidate Scranton/Wilkes Barre/Hazleton into one campus (probably Scranton)
Merge Shenango into Beaver
Consolidate Fayette/New Kensington/Greater Allegheny into one of the latter two
Close Mont Alto, Schuylkill, DuBois (Dubois probably has a case that's location is hardest to replace so maybe it stays open)
Probably keep York, merging some of Mont Alto into that
 
I'm sure there will be a lot of complaining and protesting, but it seems pretty reasonable to me to look at the campuses they are looking at and closing some (or even most) of them. Each of the campuses being looked at have fewer than 900 students - it cannot be cost effective to run these when they are smaller than many public high schools.

It seems like some pretty easy options:
Consolidate Scranton/Wilkes Barre/Hazleton into one campus (probably Scranton)
Merge Shenango into Beaver
Consolidate Fayette/New Kensington/Greater Allegheny into one of the latter two
Close Mont Alto, Schuylkill, DuBois (Dubois probably has a case that's location is hardest to replace so maybe it stays open)
Probably keep York, merging some of Mont Alto into that
Does Scranton have dorms?
 
I'm sure there will be a lot of complaining and protesting, but it seems pretty reasonable to me to look at the campuses they are looking at and closing some (or even most) of them. Each of the campuses being looked at have fewer than 900 students - it cannot be cost effective to run these when they are smaller than many public high schools.

It seems like some pretty easy options:
Consolidate Scranton/Wilkes Barre/Hazleton into one campus (probably Scranton)
Merge Shenango into Beaver
Consolidate Fayette/New Kensington/Greater Allegheny into one of the latter two
Close Mont Alto, Schuylkill, DuBois (Dubois probably has a case that's location is hardest to replace so maybe it stays open)
Probably keep York, merging some of Mont Alto into that
One major consideration might be location and value of assets. If one is located where they can quickly sell the properties for high dollars they could get some serious cash.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bison13
I'm sure there will be a lot of complaining and protesting, but it seems pretty reasonable to me to look at the campuses they are looking at and closing some (or even most) of them. Each of the campuses being looked at have fewer than 900 students - it cannot be cost effective to run these when they are smaller than many public high schools.

It seems like some pretty easy options:
Consolidate Scranton/Wilkes Barre/Hazleton into one campus (probably Scranton)
Merge Shenango into Beaver
Consolidate Fayette/New Kensington/Greater Allegheny into one of the latter two
Close Mont Alto, Schuylkill, DuBois (Dubois probably has a case that's location is hardest to replace so maybe it stays open)
Probably keep York, merging some of Mont Alto into that
A lot of kids get screwed if they do all that, forcing them to pay room and board instead of living at home. And there are some poor areas in that list which will exacerbate the situation. It may be necessary, but what comes with it will suck for many.
 
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT