There is a big similarity between Cael and Urban Meyer when it comes to recruiting. Tressel owned Ohio in his time at Ohio State. Meyer was very upfront in wanting to recruit more nationally. While this has led to schools like Michigan and Michigan State poaching some blue chippers from Ohio, Urban has put Ohio State's recruiting at never before seen heights. He's getting kids from coast to coast. Cael is doing the same thing in wrestling. As others have said, I'm more than fine with that as long as we keep winning like we have been.
Pennsylvania vs National Recruiting
- Thread starter Cali_Nittany
- Start date
The teams we're competing against for the true national elite (Ohio State, Oklahoma State and Iowa), are saddled with the same scholarship restrictions as Cael. And while I don't have any empirical data to back this up, I suspect the number of "full offer" scholarship wrestlers, even at the "tier 2" programs like NC State, Mizzou, ASU, Lehigh, Cornell, Nebraska, VT, etc., is very, very low. It's simply not a recipe for long term success when you need a full roster of athletes.
State talent, heck...even national talent, ebbs-and-flows. For PA, there will be years when the high-end blue-chippers are many, and other years when there are few. This affects PA recruiting.
Cael's model works. There can be no fixed, rigid number of PA recruits, number of national recruits, or whatever. He, Cody, and Casey survey the field, find guys that FIT the program, look at their weight class needs (even 3-4 years into the future), etc. Location is immaterial for the guys that get the majority of the scholarship money.
Cael's model works. There can be no fixed, rigid number of PA recruits, number of national recruits, or whatever. He, Cody, and Casey survey the field, find guys that FIT the program, look at their weight class needs (even 3-4 years into the future), etc. Location is immaterial for the guys that get the majority of the scholarship money.
Tier #1- PSU
Tier #2-tOSU
Tier #3- Iowa,OSU,Mizzu,ASU,Cornell,VT,NE,NC State
Tier #4- Many teams.
Tier#5-Everyone else
It's official -- Goofers tier 4.
Tier 2 in state. tier 5 out of state. Tier 3.5 average. Tier 1 in T-shirt sales to third world countries.
I don't believe it has any impact for CS. It may be an impact for the families of the respective wrestlers.
My understanding is that PSU wrestling is fully funded for the 9.9 wrestling scholarships that are permitted by the NCAA. That means that PSU Athletics has committed that it will spend the funds for these scholarships. That may not seem like a big deal, but a lot of colleges do not fully fund all the scholarships that each of their teams have the option to hand out, per the NCAA.
Wrestling scholarships can be sliced and diced (i.e., unlike football scholarships, they are not full scholarships). So with 10 starters, and only 9.9 scholarships, and prospects spread out over 4/5 years, it's very rare that any wrestler receives a full athletic scholarship, as that really limits scholarships/money available for the rest of the team.
So if PSU offers a PA wrestler, and an out-of-state wrestler, each a half scholarship, from a NCAA perspective that means that each would receive 0.5 of the total 9.9 scholarships. In terms of PSU's costs, a half scholarship to a PA resident is cheaper than is a half scholarship to a non-PA resident, as PSU has different tuition rates for in-state and out-of-state students.
Since PSU wrestling is fully funded for 9.9 scholarship, PSU can afford the half scholarship to either (or both) of the kids in above example. Using standard costs, PSU charges $17,900 in tuition and fees for PA residents, and $32,382 in tuition and fees for non-PA residents. So the half scholarship to a PA resident would be around $9,000, and a half scholarship to a non-PA resident would be around $16,000. (For discussion purposes, I'm just rounding off numbers.) So the family of the PA-resident student would have to come up with $9,000 plus the cost of room and board (the tuition fees do not include R&B), while the non-PA-resident student would have to come up with $16,000 plus the cost of room and board. (And most wrestlers go to school year-round, so the R&B costs are higher for them than for the average student.)
Wrestlers can also receive financial aid, as long as what they receive is available to all other students (i.e., they don't get special treatment for financial aid). As such, the actual costs to the two families in this example may be less than indicated in the previous paragraph, depending on their financial condition, how many other kids they have in college at the same time, etc.
So to summarize, it makes no difference to CS which kid to offer, as PSU athletics will pay the bill regardless of which one is offered. However, it may make a difference to the family of the respective kids.
I hope that helps/is what you were seeking.
I don't 100% agree with this
I'm sure residency gets factored into at some level as a half scholarship might be enough to land an in state kid while 3/4 might be needed to land an out of state kid.
So if the staff can use less of their allotted scholarships on a kid they value it makes absolute sense to do so.
The point you raise is valid, and may be factored by CS and staff. However, the question I was responding to was:
"If Cael was recruiting 2 similar wrestlers and one was in-state and one was out of state, does he benefit offering the in-state kid the spot because of tuition?"
In the context of that question, I'm not sure what aspect of my response you don't agree with.
You said "I don't believe it has any impact on CS". and I disagree that it has no impact.
It's certainly not the only factor and it's probably not even in the top 3 were you to make a list. But I do believe it plays a role, albeit a small one when recruiting 2 similar kids.
Anyway. Not a big deal.
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Tom, don't athletic scholarships include the cost of room and board? For example, if the tuition is $18,000 and room and board is $18,000, wouldn't the value of a 50% scholly be $18,000. If 10 scholarships available, total value would be $360,000 available for distribution.
Going through the recruiting process with a baseball playing kid now, and coaches aren't even talking %, just $$$.
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Again, the question was:
"If Cael was recruiting 2 similar wrestlers and one was in-state and one was out of state, does he benefit offering the in-state kid the spot because of tuition?"
I answered it from the perspective of the cost to the team, where there is no real benefit, but also mentioned "It may be an impact for the families of the respective wrestlers," and gave the explanation of why.
You're analyzing the question from a different angle, where the benefit is that CS may be more likely to land an in-state kid due to reduced costs to the family. I don't think that's what Callthestall was asking, but I've re-read his question multiple times, and must admit that the wording of it does not make it clear exactly what he was asking.
To your angle, keep in mind that the higher out-of-state costs makes that wrestler more likely (again, depending on their family situation) to be eligible for financial aid. And the in-state wrestler is less likely (again, depending on their family situation) to be eligible for financial aid. Between a partial scholarship and possible FA, the difference in costs to the two respective families may be little or nothing, which would eliminate any benefit for CS offering the in-state over he out-of-state wrestler.
Could be; I'm not certain. The question to which I was responding was about tuition. But adding R&B charges doesn't really change the dynamics of what I was discussing, as the R&B costs are the same for in-state or out-of-state students.
Yeah, that's pretty common for most sports where full scholarships are not offered.
Tom, one more question. Is the budget for the scholarships based on in-state, or out-of-state tuition, or does it vary by institution?
One correction. There is not a dollar amount available to be distributed, there are 9.9 ships, regardless of what the total dollar amount ends up being. From Cael's standpoint it doesn't matter that the dollar amount is greater for out of state. It certainly matters to the families, of course.
Varies by institution.
As I indicated in a previous answer, PSU Wrestling is fully funded, which means they are budgeted for 9.9 scholarships. Fully funded usually implies that it doesn't matter from a budget perspective to the University if the athletes are in-state or out-of state (for Universities that have different rates for in-state and out-of-state students). However, that's not always the case. Fully funded can mean that the institution has committed to funding 9.9 'ships, but there may be a dollar limit on the amount, so the coach needs to have a certain number of in-state athletes on the roster to stay under the budget limit.
It gets even crazier for schools which are not fully funded, as they are dealing with reduced funds.
Some institutions also put additional responsibilities on the coaching staff, in that they have to raise some funds.
Budget is dollar value. By definition it varies by institution. Even if every program had the full 9.9 rides, costs are different at each school.
The 9.9 rides is a sum of (scholarship / cost) for each individual athlete, regardless of residency status.
that's valid. you could make a case for either of them. (I actually started off only planning to do 2 or 3 per year. I expanded it to provide some context, but the danger with doing so is that after 1 or 2 it gets much more subjective.)
lol. I started filling in the names for 2019 and after two decided to go with my original intent for all the classes. The subjectivity gets too high, and a lot of these guys are still developing their skills. Ruth is a good addition. Vulakh is another one.
True, and that ties to others' comments that Starocci (also 2019) would've beaten Ruth in a single class 152. That's not unreasonable, and Starocci is probably better than Vulakh today as well.
How to order those 3 guys today in terms of their college projections ... blindfolded monkey with a dart board territory.
Harder yet for us, because it's very easy to watch Little Ed and see a younger, skinnier Big Ed in the making.
That would mean replacing Willie with Foley as recruiting coordinator.
This is where I was trying to get to. An institution with a "fully funded" 9.9 with out of state value as a basis (budget) will be better off recruiting than an institution with "fully funded" 9.9 based on in-state cost. (Unless Willie is involved
)Sorry I took such a round about way by not knowing how to ask the question properly, and thanks.
Probably not quoting the right post...
anyway, $$$'s are based on a schools policies and procedures, and may include; tuition, fees,
room and board, books, supplies, transportation, child care, cost related to a disability.
The first 4 items are universal.
Also, it's not a schools "budget" alone that necessarily determines the $$$'s for the 9.9 scholarship funding. We have the good fortune of endowments too...
Cael is in an enviable position right now. He's in the middle the hotbed for HS wrestling and has kids from all over the country wanting to be part of the program. His biggest challenge is spreading the money over 10 weights, then picking which stud fits best into the system.
Obviously Cael and his staff deserve all the kudos they get, but I will always thank DT, ER, Q, Hulk and others from the early days of his regime. They helped to set the tone and culture that now exists in the room. They bought into an entertaining 'take no prisoners' style of wrestling that has caught the attention of HS wrestlers everywhere.
Personally, I don't care where kids come from. Is there anyone who represents Penn State better than David Taylor?
Obviously Cael and his staff deserve all the kudos they get, but I will always thank DT, ER, Q, Hulk and others from the early days of his regime. They helped to set the tone and culture that now exists in the room. They bought into an entertaining 'take no prisoners' style of wrestling that has caught the attention of HS wrestlers everywhere.
Personally, I don't care where kids come from. Is there anyone who represents Penn State better than David Taylor?
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Thanks for giving me a better perspective of how the distribution works on scholarship. When I asked, I did not know if it was based on a specific amount that was determined be the schools fees. For instance, if they used $ 32,000 as the bench for the value of 1 scholarship, I could see where Cael would be able to disperse the 1 scholarship among 2 in-state kids. However your detailed explanation clarifies that the scholarship allotment is based strickly on a percentage of discount of the expected cost of tuition.
I would assume ,to land some of the better national talent Cael is pretty much obligated to offer a full scholarship to entice a typical wrestler and family to attend PSU.
With that description, hypotheticaly if the coaching staff feels they can entice most wrestlers to attend if they keep the family tuition cost at $9000. The approximate breakdown of percentage needed to offer is as follows.They could offer an in-state kid a .5 scholarship. Whereas a national recruit would need to recieve approximately .7 scholarship to owe the same $9000. Cael would get more bang for his buck on the in-state kid. If he offers a total free ride it would not make a difference. He would merely save the endowment the money if he offered an in-state kid the free ride.
Don't assume this. Full rides are exceedingly rare (if they exist at all) on top teams.
IMHO, the rarity of a full-scholie depends on the absolute ranking of the wrestler, the priority that wrestler (and his family) has placed on receiving a full-scholie and the willingness of his preferred program to provide that level of funding (which also obviously depends on that program's specific situation). The reality is that somebody will provide a full grant if the prospect is that good and one of the absolute best in the nation....it just won't necessarily be the prospect's preferred program (i.e., the prospect's preferred program has become somewhat of a financial "business decision").
IOW, not sure full grants are that incredibly rare among the absolute premier recruits who know they can get a full ride as long as they are willing to accept the offer from a program that might not be their 1st Choice if the financial element was not a consideration.
Man. That would mean that Jimmy had the second best career of the top ten from 2012.
The endowments are just a revenue source, that helps offset the expense of the 9.9 ships and other expenses.
Best bang for your buck in that class - Dean at #73
Eric Montoya at 193 and Brett Pfarr at 171
#Rankings
The endowments are varied. To add to NoVa's comment, an endowment can be assigned, or general in nature. Some donors want their money to go to a certain weight class, so a position scholarship can be created. Some endowments are for the coaches, others are graduate scholarships, or NLWC support, or even academic/athletic scholarships.
One aspect that is a no-no with the NCAA, is creating a scholarship for a named individual, it must be assigned a weight-class only.
That's interesting. Why not a named individual? Some sort of advantage I'm missing??
Imagine 3 yrs ago someone endowing the Mark Hall Scholarship.
15.01.4 Contributions by Donor. An individual may contribute funds to finance a scholarship or grantin-Are you really trying to make sense out of NCAA rules?
aid for a particular sport, but the decision as to how such funds are to be allocated in the sport shall rest
exclusively with the institution. It is not permissible for a donor to contribute funds to finance a scholarship or grant-in-aid for a particular student-athlete.
I personally like this rule. Other-wise, rich car-salemen will come out of the woodwork...
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