PIAA 2023 postseason

[amattaro]

That 160 ending seemed muffed up.

UTB. Dude on top throws legs in as guy on bottom stands. Stalemate. Repeat, guy on BOTTOM gets dinged for stalling. His second. Match over.

 

[LOTOlion]

Holy s”*#. That stall call seems questionable to me

 

[El-Jefe]

Is Rath worth the Press of the Full Court variety?

Scroll up to my post listing his victims this year.

IIRC he's #3 nationally at his weight, and only a soph.

Also: I saw his NE Regional finals win. High motor, constant prowl, lots of attacks, clean finishes, big gas tank. Looks like an M2 kid and whaddayaknow!

 

[jschrantz]

Is Rath worth the Press of the Full Court variety?

He’ll be Lehigh bound

 

[Kaiser4567]

That 160 ending seemed muffed up.

UTB. Dude on top throws legs in as guy on bottom stands. Stalemate. Repeat, guy on BOTTOM gets dinged for stalling. His second. Match over.

The rule is there to make that call. Really bad interpretation of the rule there though. Legs weren’t in when he stood. Unfortunate ending.

That said it was a deserving win for Evans. Taylor did nothing but stall that whole match. And the whole match before that.

 

[El-Jefe]

That 160 ending seemed muffed up.

UTB. Dude on top throws legs in as guy on bottom stands. Stalemate. Repeat, guy on BOTTOM gets dinged for stalling. His second. Match over.

I'm not sure of the HS rule any more, but the college rule intended to stop intentional stalemates:

If top throws in legs and then bottom stands to force a stalemate, that's bottom stalling. If bottom stands and then top throws in legs to force a stalemate, that's top stalling.

In both cases, ref gives a stalemate the first time, and tells the wrestler next time you get dinged.

Calling that against bottom in the stall-out periods seems awful, though. Also when that wasn't the sequence.

 

[Kaiser4567]

I'm not sure of the HS rule any more, but the college rule intended to stop intentional stalemates:

If top throws in legs and then bottom stands to force a stalemate, that's bottom stalling. If bottom stands and then top throws in legs to force a stalemate, that's top stalling.

In both cases, ref gives a stalemate the first time, and tells the wrestler next time you get dinged.

Calling that against bottom in the stall-out periods seems awful, though. Also when that wasn't the sequence.

It is the same. In this case the ref blew the call after the stalemate.

 

[LOTOlion]

Northern York is my Alma mater.. not that anyone cares 🙁

 

[CSauertiegPSU]

He’ll be Lehigh bound

That’s a shame. I’d like to see him continue to score points.

 

[El-Jefe]

It is the same. In this case the ref blew the call after the stalemate.

It wouldn't be the PIAA finals unless a ref blew a match-deciding call, or a ref waited until the last 5 sec of a match to make a useless token stall call too late to have any effect.

 

[El-Jefe]

He’ll be Lehigh bound

Flagged.

 

[Kale_yeah]

When does AAA start

 

[LOTOlion]

When does AAA start

🙄

 

[LOTOlion]

Flagged.

I reported that as “offensive” as well. We don’t need this around here. Next thing you know we’ll be considered a cesspool

 

[oldcougar65]

The 145 lb bout between Mac Church and Collin Gaj was unusual. Church repeatedly poked Gaj in the eyes or hit him flush on the face. He gave up 2 penalty points for that, so going into the 3rd period, the score was 1-1 (Gaj with a penalty point). Gaj escapes: 2-1. With a little over a minute to go in the bout, Church obviously pokes Gaj in the eye. Got it in slo-mo on instant replay. Penalty point; now it's 3-1. Final flurry at match-end: Gaj coming out on top, Church grabs his uniform. You can't make this stuff up. Gaj gets 2 and 2. Two takedown, two penalty points (1-1-2). Gaj wins 7-1. But he did most of his scoring in the last few seconds. Church was trying to bully Gaj, but Gaj didn't back down.

 

[oldcougar65]

Sasso (Naz) beats Bechtold (OJR) 7-5. Closer than many expected.

 

[Callthestall]

Is Rath worth the Press of the Full Court variety?

Good kid also. Takes after his father who was great athlete for Pius X and Lehigh. I hear he's a police officer up in the Poconos.

 

[rmxxl]

The 145 lb bout between Mac Church and Collin Gaj was unusual. Church repeatedly poked Gaj in the eyes or hit him flush on the face. He gave up 2 penalty points for that, so going into the 3rd period, the score was 1-1 (Gaj with a penalty point). Gaj escapes: 2-1. With a little over a minute to go in the bout, Church obviously pokes Gaj in the eye. Got it in slo-mo on instant replay. Penalty point; now it's 3-1. Final flurry at match-end: Gaj coming out on top, Church grabs his uniform. You can't make this stuff up. Gaj gets 2 and 2. Two takedown, two penalty points (1-1-2). Gaj wins 7-1. But he did most of his scoring in the last few seconds. Church was trying to bully Gaj, but Gaj didn't back down.

Church also calls for injury time when he was about to be taken down. Kid games the system and he has done it in the past. Sorry, not a fan of the antics.

 

[El-Jefe]

Sasso (Naz) beats Bechtold (OJR) 7-5. Closer than many expected.

Yes, though Sasso wrestled 189 the entire year and bumped up to 215 for the postseason. Close or not, commendable.

 

[dpd926]

No, and he's a JR. His brother JT is a freshman at Lock Haven. Not sure if Tucker will follow him, or is inclined to go to a bigger power. Tucker is having a significantly better HS career than JT did.

No, and he's a JR. His brother JT is a freshman at Lock Haven. Not sure if Tucker will follow him, or is inclined to go to a bigger power. Tucker is having a significantly better HS career than JT did.

The Good Guys know about Tucker, but, so do the bad guys. He has plenty of offers bigger than LHU.

 

[El-Jefe]

No, and he's a JR. His brother JT is a freshman at Lock Haven. Not sure if Tucker will follow him, or is inclined to go to a bigger power. Tucker is having a significantly better HS career than JT did.


The Good Guys know about Tucker, but, so do the bad guys. He has plenty of offers bigger than LHU.

Such as?

 

[nitlion6]

Is Rath worth the Press of the Full Court variety?

Everytime someone labels a kid a full court press Cael gives us someone better. So I do not know if we should place the label on the kid and know we are getting someone superior, or hold the label back hoping he ends up at Happy Valley. The problems of today.

 

[El-Jefe]

Everytime someone labels a kid a full court press Cael gives us someone better. So I do not know if we should place the label on the kid and know we are getting someone superior, or hold the label back hoping he ends up at Happy Valley. The problems of today.

Sadly we are out of potential recruits who are better than their 3x NCAA champ older brothers. (For now.)

 

[El-Jefe]

Hilarious ... but Jason did it to Zain better.

 

[El-Jefe]

 

[The Japanese Whizzer]

The 145 lb bout between Mac Church and Collin Gaj was unusual. Church repeatedly poked Gaj in the eyes or hit him flush on the face. He gave up 2 penalty points for that, so going into the 3rd period, the score was 1-1 (Gaj with a penalty point). Gaj escapes: 2-1. With a little over a minute to go in the bout, Church obviously pokes Gaj in the eye. Got it in slo-mo on instant replay. Penalty point; now it's 3-1. Final flurry at match-end: Gaj coming out on top, Church grabs his uniform. You can't make this stuff up. Gaj gets 2 and 2. Two takedown, two penalty points (1-1-2). Gaj wins 7-1. But he did most of his scoring in the last few seconds. Church was trying to bully Gaj, but Gaj didn't back down.

Church also “Destanto’d” his way out of a Gaj takedown in the second. Gaj was better, Church needs to either drop the tough guy routine or become a tough guy

 

[mcpat]

If I’m not mistaken, PA wrestling states for girls is today. Just one day, I believe. At Central Dauphin. My daughter has a friend that practices with our boys team and qualified.

 

[tikk10]

This is a noob question b/c I don't follow PA HS wrestling closely, and I'm pretty sure half the board has strong feelings about it.

I get that the AA and AAA distinctions are based on male enrollment (<291 = AA, >292 = AAA) but I'm wondering how meaningful that distinction still is. E.g., does it track through to college success? Do AAA wrestlers, on the whole, have greater success head-to-head at crossover events? I'm sure there are thousands of exceptions, but I'm interested in knowing how true that holds, and if there's been any particular trend over time.

I'm also curious whether it's at all controversial/meaningful that so many private/prep schools (I'm assuming, given their names, e.g., Bethlehem Catholic, Faith Christian Academy) compete within the PIAA, since, presumably, those schools would have more lax residency requirements and transfer policies than strictly-public schools. I recall a flareup along these lines some years ago but have no idea whether it's still the status quo. It would seem that there'd be friction between the desire to have the best competition in one place and sanctioning inherent unfairness.

 

[El-Jefe]

Nasdeo's winning takedown + a post-match interview.

 

[CSauertiegPSU]

This is a noob question b/c I don't follow PA HS wrestling closely, and I'm pretty sure half the board has strong feelings about it.

I get that the AA and AAA distinctions are based on male enrollment (<291 = AA, >292 = AAA) but I'm wondering how meaningful that distinction still is. E.g., does it track through to college success? Do AAA wrestlers, on the whole, have greater success head-to-head at crossover events? I'm sure there are thousands of exceptions, but I'm interested in knowing how true that holds, and if there's been any particular trend over time.

I'm also curious whether it's at all controversial/meaningful that so many private/prep schools (I'm assuming, given their names, e.g., Bethlehem Catholic, Faith Christian Academy) compete within the PIAA, since, presumably, those schools would have more lax residency requirements and transfer policies than strictly-public schools. I recall a flareup along these lines some years ago but have no idea whether it's still the status quo. It would seem that there'd be friction between the desire to have the best competition in one place and sanctioning inherent unfairness.

I think it tracks due more to quantity than quality. But if you look at the recent 4-timers and the like from AA they haven’t been on the level you’d expect from a kid with those types of accolades. Obviously every case is differ though.

As for the private schools, it’s definitely a big deal. I don’t have a dog in the fight insofar that I enjoy all the best at one tournament but it’s certainly not a remotely level playing field when it comes to handing out team trophies.

 

[raslen007]

Any celebrated coaches in attendance last night.

 

[tullfan68]

The rule is there to make that call. Really bad interpretation of the rule there though. Legs weren’t in when he stood. Unfortunate ending.

That said it was a deserving win for Evans. Taylor did nothing but stall that whole match. And the whole match before that.

these refs had many bad call the whole tourney!

 

[RoverNation05]

This is a noob question b/c I don't follow PA HS wrestling closely, and I'm pretty sure half the board has strong feelings about it.

I get that the AA and AAA distinctions are based on male enrollment (<291 = AA, >292 = AAA) but I'm wondering how meaningful that distinction still is. E.g., does it track through to college success? Do AAA wrestlers, on the whole, have greater success head-to-head at crossover events? I'm sure there are thousands of exceptions, but I'm interested in knowing how true that holds, and if there's been any particular trend over time.

I'm also curious whether it's at all controversial/meaningful that so many private/prep schools (I'm assuming, given their names, e.g., Bethlehem Catholic, Faith Christian Academy) compete within the PIAA, since, presumably, those schools would have more lax residency requirements and transfer policies than strictly-public schools. I recall a flareup along these lines some years ago but have no idea whether it's still the status quo. It would seem that there'd be friction between the desire to have the best competition in one place and sanctioning inherent unfairness.

The 3A vs 2A difference shows up in depth, not top end quality. There are awesome 2A kids every year that would win both tournaments and vice versa.

Longtime Easton coach Steve Powell refers to wrestlers all the time as “double A kids” which is not a knock, but a stylistic distinction - Logan Stieber is the one that sticks out in my mind that he described that way. Generally not super twitchy or athletic looking on their feet, but super physical on top.

The private school thing is a recent phenomenon in the last 10-15 years.

 

[donboy6499]

I think it tracks due more to quantity than quality. But if you look at the recent 4-timers and the like from AA they haven’t been on the level you’d expect from a kid with those types of accolades.

To add on to this, even though the number of schools are about even, the number of males available to wrestle is not really close. It appears to be 2-3X harder to win a AAA state title than a AA, on average. Which would track with, all else equal, a AAA wrestler with X accolades being better than a AA wrestler with X accolades (though, as you note, there are exceptions).

Numbers on AAA/AA

Got bored at work and did something I always wanted to do and never really sat down to do, I tallied: Total number of males 9-11 in PA in schools that offer wrestling, and delineated these by classification. A few things to keep in mind: There are a handful of schools (top of my head, I...

pennstate.forums.rivals.com

I theorize, and could really test it with historic data (I do not have), that if there were instead an equal number of male students in AA/AAA rather than schools, the quality of achievements after high school would be about even (this would fix for school population disparity).

 

[El-Jefe]

This is a noob question b/c I don't follow PA HS wrestling closely, and I'm pretty sure half the board has strong feelings about it.

I get that the AA and AAA distinctions are based on male enrollment (<291 = AA, >292 = AAA) but I'm wondering how meaningful that distinction still is. E.g., does it track through to college success? Do AAA wrestlers, on the whole, have greater success head-to-head at crossover events? I'm sure there are thousands of exceptions, but I'm interested in knowing how true that holds, and if there's been any particular trend over time.

I'm also curious whether it's at all controversial/meaningful that so many private/prep schools (I'm assuming, given their names, e.g., Bethlehem Catholic, Faith Christian Academy) compete within the PIAA, since, presumably, those schools would have more lax residency requirements and transfer policies than strictly-public schools. I recall a flareup along these lines some years ago but have no idea whether it's still the status quo. It would seem that there'd be friction between the desire to have the best competition in one place and sanctioning inherent unfairness.

This is the 3rd rail of the wrestling board. Let's try to keep this as clinical as possible -- we have the entire Brock Bronson thread for the emotions of this topic.

AAA is clearly stronger than AA overall. Usually the champs are pretty evenly split (meaning: in any year the AA champ would beat the AAA champ in 5-8 out of 13 weights). Being a repeat champ is probably easier in AA than AAA. It drifts from there. AAA typically would get 5-6 out of the 8 medals in most weights.

Harder to say how that correlates to the college level, because as we've seen with PSU, even multi-time PA state champs aren't always D1 starters. And even then it's not that easy. Jimmy Gulibon (2x AAA champ, 2x AA champ) has the same number of NCAA medals as James English (never reached a PA finals).

Private school participation is definitely still controversial. Not just because of non-boundary, but also because they can more or less recruit. A lot of the controversy is when they remain AA -- especially when Beca crushed AA states + state duals for about a decade before volunteering to go up to AAA.

PIAA could and should create a 3rd division for private schools, at least for state duals, but won't because PIAA (PA agencies move glacially, and half-ass pretty much every move -- not limited to athletics).

Also some non-PA residents have competed for private schools -- Ryan Anderson lived in NJ while attending Beca; Ryan Diehl commuted from WV to Trinity (Camp Hill); etc. PIAA should not let a non-resident compete in PA sports.

PA transferring/recruiting is nothing new. It's been going on for over a half-century. What's new about it is: the schools that raided others before, are now being raided themselves (largely but not entirely by the Catholic schools), and don't like it when they're the prey instead of the predator.

 

[El-Jefe]

I question why Church wasn't DQ'd. He was hitting Gaj in the face whenever he wasn't poking Gaj in the eyes. Church ended the match with 4 penalty points against him, and that wasn't enough. He was a punk, trying to win thru intimidation because he couldn't win with skill.
That happened to me once. I was wrestling a Shippensburg guy in an exhibition dual. The kid kept hitting me in the face - hard. I complained to the ref, he ignored it. The fifth time he hit me, I cold-cocked the kid. That kinda ended the bout.

Church ran out of time for the DQ.

Seriously, PA refs occasionally let that chippiness get out of hand. Recall the Cumberland Valley-Central Dauphin match a few years ago, the one that got a head coach suspended for ordering a DQ win and taunting the other team and its fans. The coaches were to blame, but the ref was way too lax.

 

[mcpat]

Jason Nolf and Zain Retherford wrestled at AA high schools. Vincenzo Joseph and Spencer Lee went to AAA high schools. Beau Bartlett and Michael Beard went to private high schools in PA. As others have said, at the highest level, it’s all the same. AAA has more depth is all.

 

[tikk10]

This is the 3rd rail of the wrestling board. Let's try to keep this as clinical as possible -- we have the entire Brock Bronson thread for the emotions of this topic.

AAA is clearly stronger than AA overall. Usually the champs are pretty evenly split (meaning: in any year the AA champ would beat the AAA champ in 5-8 out of 13 weights). Being a repeat champ is probably easier in AA than AAA. It drifts from there. AAA typically would get 5-6 out of the 8 medals in most weights.

Harder to say how that correlates to the college level, because as we've seen with PSU, even multi-time PA state champs aren't always D1 starters. And even then it's not that easy. Jimmy Gulibon (2x AAA champ, 2x AA champ) has the same number of NCAA medals as James English (never reached a PA finals).

Private school participation is definitely still controversial. Not just because of non-boundary, but also because they can more or less recruit. A lot of the controversy is when they remain AA -- especially when Beca crushed AA states + state duals for about a decade before volunteering to go up to AAA.

PIAA could and should create a 3rd division for private schools, at least for state duals, but won't because PIAA (PA agencies move glacially, and half-ass pretty much every move -- not limited to athletics).

Also some non-PA residents have competed for private schools -- Ryan Anderson lived in NJ while attending Beca; Ryan Diehl commuted from WV to Trinity (Camp Hill); etc. PIAA should not let a non-resident compete in PA sports.

PA transferring/recruiting is nothing new. It's been going on for over a half-century. What's new about it is: the schools that raided others before, are now being raided themselves (largely but not entirely by the Catholic schools), and don't like it when they're the prey instead of the predator.

I was hoping you'd weigh in, thx, and thanks to everyone else who responded.

 

[Callthestall]

Jason Nolf and Zain Retherford wrestled at AA high schools. Vincenzo Joseph and Spencer Lee went to AAA high schools. Beau Bartlett and Michael Beard went to private high schools in PA. As others have said, at the highest level, it’s all the same. AAA has more depth is all.

If a kid is a 3 or 4 time PA state champ in AAA it certainly was a tougher path than doing it AA.
Both scenarios are impressive but the depth of AAA creates a tougher road.
Bobby Crawford of Milton I believe had Daily Double.
I think he was 2x AA and 2x AAA State Champ.

 

[oldcougar65]

Crawford was the strangest of 4xers. He was all arms and legs. He was most dangerous when he was being put on his back. Just when you'd think he was getting pinned, the other guy would be on his back instead. Weird. I saw him wrestle the Nazareth coach's son, Nunamaker maybe? The scoring just kept coming, and somehow Crawford won it 15-11 in OT. (I just looked it up.)