Piazza family wants sims and bream fired
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
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So..... is this "blaming":
Someone in a position of authority and responsibility says:
"Yes, we are aware of the problems/risks, and the dangers they present. Rather than to exorcise any relationship we have with those risks, we are going to do X, Y, and Z to insure that these risks are corrected/eliminated/mitigated"
and then.....
Those folks who made those decisions, the folks who made those pledges to perform "X, Y, and Z", fail to perform "X, Y, and Z".....and the problems/risks contribute to (either solely or in part) the death of another.
Is it "blaming" to hold those folks accountable?
Because that is EXACTLY what transpired vav PSU "Leadership" and the Frats (Beta in particular)
One would expect you are likely 100% spot on........
Of course, that has zero - absolutely zero - to do with the degree of liability that PSU assumed (or was forced to assume) through the actions, promises, and failures, of their "leaders"
Two completely separate issues.
This issue - broadly - is bound to be a very emotional one ........ especially given the strong feelings, both positive and negative, that many have for "frats" ........ unfortunately, that likely makes it more difficult to come to any positive or righteous outcomes to the entire fiasco.
Who's really accountable?
Penn State isn't accountable. They already have frat rules on top of state/local laws against hazing/underage drinking.
The frat is partially accountable for breaking the hazing/underage drinking rules. But they're just as liable as Piazza. Also accountable is Piazza's parents.
Penn State isn't accountable. They already have frat rules on top of state/local laws against hazing/underage drinking.
The frat is partially accountable for breaking the hazing/underage drinking rules. But they're just as liable as Piazza. Also accountable is Piazza's parents.
C'mon, that's just not even close. The parents are saying, pretty clearly, that their son died SOLELY because of PSU. That is simply not true and both they and their son bear some/most of the blame.
What about a tearful commercial to run on all the major networks?
As I am now learning, Penn State has a long history of harsh hazing, excessive drinking and sexual assaults in its Greek Life. Penn State also has a long history of looking the other way at difficult situations. This must stop and all those who are part of turning a blind eye must be held accountable
To me this statement paints this young adult's parents as lazy, disengenuous or both.
They have a right to be upset and angry. They have a right to want people charged that may have had a hand in this. They don't have a right to act like they didn't know what goes on at fraternities or just universities in general, including Penn State, before their son died. Sorry, we live in the information age, with a 24 hour news cycle. There has been, in recent years, plenty of coverage on drinking, hazing and sexual assaults both within frats and on campuses, PSU included.
You would've had to turn a blind eye to not notice these things or to not bother researching them with a college bound son. I understand their grief and anger, I disagree with their attempt at claiming ignorance while denying their own personal accountability to their son.
To me this statement paints this young adult's parents as lazy, disengenuous or both.
They have a right to be upset and angry. They have a right to want people charged that may have had a hand in this. They don't have a right to act like they didn't know what goes on at fraternities or just universities in general, including Penn State, before their son died. Sorry, we live in the information age, with a 24 hour news cycle. There has been, in recent years, plenty of coverage on drinking, hazing and sexual assaults both within frats and on campuses, PSU included.
You would've had to turn a blind eye to not notice these things or to not bother researching them with a college bound son. I understand their grief and anger, I disagree with their attempt at claiming ignorance while denying their own personal accountability to their son.
The question is, if Penn State acquiesced and gave in to every single one of those rules that the parents set forth, would the family agree to take no financial damages? I'm guessing they would not agree to those terms.
Sure, it would be nice for their lawsuit if PSU fired Sims and Bream, because then the Piazza's lawyer would tell the jury that by taking such remedial action, PSU has admitted it's fault in the death.
Looks to me like this family is more than happy to put litigation advantage and $$$ over truth and justice.
That is true - however, the University cannot be in the business of offering official recognition to the Lord of the Flies (aka Men of Honor). That is where the liability is.
If I was PSU President I would ban the Greek system, let them form their own private social clubs. That being said, I have a few other recommendations that the Piazza's could suggest:
1. Mandatory alcohol, sex assault and hazing training for every student every year.
2. Any fraternity member who provides alcohol to a minor is suspended for one semester.
3. Any fraternity pledge who consumes alcohol while underage is suspended for one semester.
4. Any fraternity member who hazes or a pledge who does not report hazing is expelled from PSU.
5. Any fraternity function that involves alcohol must have private employees serving the alcohol. All people entering the frat house/social hall must provide valid ID, anyone under the age of 21 must have a scarlet "Y" on their forehead with paint of quality that cannot be removed for 12 hours. Private security can inspect any room in the frat house for a period of 12 hours after the conclusion of the enter without having to knock.
People get hazed at fraternities because people are willing to do it and people are willing to be hazed like Tim Piazza. Both groups have to be addressed.
1. Mandatory alcohol, sex assault and hazing training for every student every year.
2. Any fraternity member who provides alcohol to a minor is suspended for one semester.
3. Any fraternity pledge who consumes alcohol while underage is suspended for one semester.
4. Any fraternity member who hazes or a pledge who does not report hazing is expelled from PSU.
5. Any fraternity function that involves alcohol must have private employees serving the alcohol. All people entering the frat house/social hall must provide valid ID, anyone under the age of 21 must have a scarlet "Y" on their forehead with paint of quality that cannot be removed for 12 hours. Private security can inspect any room in the frat house for a period of 12 hours after the conclusion of the enter without having to knock.
People get hazed at fraternities because people are willing to do it and people are willing to be hazed like Tim Piazza. Both groups have to be addressed.
Their list of demands ranges from reasonable to downright outrageous. The pandering to the public is growing tiresome and is having the opposite effect they want for some audiences, such as many in this thread. Instead of raising awareness and increasing sympathy they are getting into territory where their demands and approach are alienating them from those following this story. It's clear they are applying public pressure in hopes for a big settlement from the university.
Let's look at these suggestions shall we?
Let's look at these suggestions shall we?
It's not too unreasonable to ask that witnesses that didn't act be held responsible, although I'd be curious as to how one defines "hazing" in a legal sense. Also making this a felony seems excessive.
I don't have much of an opinion here, I would defer to the precedent of similar laws. On the surface 10 years seems long but if other laws have a 10 year statute then I'd accept this.
This runs contrary to their first point which asks for extending legal punishment to all witnesses. If you do that, you kill your efforts for a good samaritan amnesty law which only extends to 2 individuals. This is likely to result in the exact same situation as in Piazza's death, other witnesses pressuring anyone that wants to call for help to not do so in order to avoid punishment for everyone.
This is akin to me saying "there should be no world hunger" and just hoping it happens somehow. Of course we all agree there should be no hazing but realistically the university cannot control the actions of adults on their own property. I'm fine with university punishment for offenders that is in line with whatever punishments exist for other similar university policy violations.
Controlling what happens at parties can only be done to the extent that the parties happen in locations where the university actually has oversight. If it's on private property there's not much that can be done. Again the family is simply wishing for an outcome with no idea how it could be executed. Expulsion for underage drinking is excessive and will never happen.
Considering that the frats are on private property, isn't this an unlawful search and seizure? So now the family feels that our constitutional rights should be null and void. This is a ridiculous suggestion. Even a landlord is not permitted to enter a tenant's apartment "whenever desired" without first complying with laws about providing notice and the reason. There's no way the university should even consider this.
For any item in the code of conduct? Yeah, good luck with that. Codes of conduct cover wide ranges of items and if you think a standard punishment of removing a charter fits the bill for all of them you are crazy.
Doesn't the university already do this to some extent? Perhaps it can be improved, I don't know the details. This is a reasonable ask.
So the university is supposed to wave a magic wand that will transfer ownership of all fraternity houses and property to the university simply so they have authority to govern it? Completely unrealistic.
Now they have stopped with diplomacy and are just being vindictive. They seemingly want to expel every single person at the frat party, even those that had nothing to do with hazing or encouraging their son to drink. Yeah, good luck with that. Ridiculous.
Define "turned a blind eye." I can't help but notice that is the same phrase used in much of the Sandusky scandal coverage. The family wants heads to roll with no due process or investigation.
I'm yet to see a single piece of evidence that Bream was in the house or even aware of this party. The family knows this, yet they want him fired because he "had to have known" about this or other hazing parties in the past. Sorry Charlie, punishments for perceived but unproven knowledge of something isn't how this works. Yes you could argue that Bream put himself in a dumb situation by living there, but that alone is not grounds for termination. Once again the terminology used shows that the family paid close attention to the Sandusky scandal and apparently thinks we have a football culture problem. One wonders why they allowed their son to attend PSU in the first place if our culture was so toxic, after all the scandal hit long before Piazza enrolled.
This is complete and utter BS. The university isn't responsible for watching each and every student 24/7. It's not the administration's job to protect adults from what happens on their own time and property. It's a harsh pill to swallow, but your son died because of actions and decisions made by himself and those around him at that fraternity, not because of the administration.
The statement in bold says it all. They're trying to tie this to Sandusky. "Penn State also has a history of looking the other way... ." Their argument is going to be that Penn State's "culture" is to not address issues head on and instead to stick their head in the sand ala the Sandusky narrative. Someone's looking for a big pay day.
Nothing proposed by the Piazzas in their letter would be able to be admitted into their lawsuit against Penn State, even if Penn State does everything they're asking them to do. The Pennsylvania Rules of Evidence prevent "subsequent remedial measures" taken by a defendant after the fact from being admitted into evidence.
And NOT ONLY "recognition"... but - in the case of Beta particularly - recognition of the history of dangerous issues, and promises that in allowing Beta to once again form as a recognized University organization, to take remedial steps and provide supervision - - - - which they then FAILED TO DO.
Which is why folks like Sims ARE responsible (which doesn't mean that everyone else is wholly WITHOUT responsibility), and should - rightly - have their nuts in a vise.
If Sims and the PSU administration had established reasonable promises, requirements, and guidelines (FWIW, I think their promises, requirements, and guidelines were largely reasonable) and then PERFORMED on those promises and guidelines..... and the Piazza tragedy happened anyway.... THEN I would say "PSU" should not be "on the hook".
But they didn't. They did the opposite.
They f*cked up. Royally.
And - if you've followed every step of the process since the tragedy (much of which I outlined in my Blog last month) it is clear that they KNOW they f*cked up....and have been desperately engaged in CYA ever since.
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Why would you specify Fraternity members, especially of you have already banned the whole greek system.
Would these rules be for all students? Would the rules be?
1. Mandatory alcohol, sex assault and hazing training for every student every year.
2. Any student who provides alcohol to a minor is suspended for one semester.
3. Any student who consumes alcohol while underage is suspended for one semester.
4. Any student who hazes another student or does not report hazing is expelled from PSU.
5. Any student function that involves alcohol must have private employees serving the alcohol. All people entering the house/apartment/social hall/study lounge must provide valid ID, anyone under the age of 21 must have a scarlet "Y" on their forehead with paint of quality that cannot be removed for 12 hours. Private security can inspect any room/dorm or on campus apartment for a period of 12 hours after the conclusion of the enter without having to knock.
Is this your proposal?
Would these rules be for all students? Would the rules be?
1. Mandatory alcohol, sex assault and hazing training for every student every year.
2. Any student who provides alcohol to a minor is suspended for one semester.
3. Any student who consumes alcohol while underage is suspended for one semester.
4. Any student who hazes another student or does not report hazing is expelled from PSU.
5. Any student function that involves alcohol must have private employees serving the alcohol. All people entering the house/apartment/social hall/study lounge must provide valid ID, anyone under the age of 21 must have a scarlet "Y" on their forehead with paint of quality that cannot be removed for 12 hours. Private security can inspect any room/dorm or on campus apartment for a period of 12 hours after the conclusion of the enter without having to knock.
Is this your proposal?
Yes, there are two sides to a coin. Who is to blame: Tim Piazza, his parents, the fraternity brothers, the fraternity brother who played Mike McQueary by not calling the police/ambulance/Tim Bream. See lots of people are/were at fault.
Tim Piazza could have said NO.
Fraternity brothers could have followed rules.
Fraternity brother who mimicked MM by not have any guts to call for help on his own.
Parents for not teaching son how to drink responsibly.
Does that apply to dorms? PREtty common for adult staff to live in dorms. Drinking is pretty common too.
All true. The flaw is they are now blaming people that had nothing to do with anything you listed. Their son and Beta are responsible.
Yep, which is why so many of us have been on here for going on 6 years saying you cannot "move on" from Sandusky and the popular narrative because that taint will never go away. Every incident in the future will always be connected to and consistent with the culture that bred Sandusky. Someday, someone with the university is going to have to stand up and call the Freeh Report and the popular narrative what they are...pure BS. Til then, anytime something bad happens, even when it has nothing to do with football (like this situation) it will be tied to the culture that led to Sandusky.
Is this your proposal?[/QUOTE]
Sounds good until an athlete gets busted. I know one PSAC school that had a zero tolerance policy for kegs. They had a permanent ban on any organization that was busted with kegs. That lasted about ONE semester when two sports teams were busted with kegs.
Sounds good until an athlete gets busted. I know one PSAC school that had a zero tolerance policy for kegs. They had a permanent ban on any organization that was busted with kegs. That lasted about ONE semester when two sports teams were busted with kegs.
Sounds good until an athlete gets busted. I know one PSAC school that had a zero tolerance policy for kegs. They had a permanent ban on any organization that was busted with kegs. That lasted about ONE semester when two sports teams were busted with kegs.[/QUOTE]
Interesting. So the correct remedy if Marcus Allen buys two beers, one for Trace and one for Saquan, all three are suspended for a semester........
The parents are truly not in their right minds at this moment. Those who should be advising them are looking for a payday.
The sad part of this is that sometime in the future, Mom and Dad will awake to realize that putting a dozen young men in jail and ruining their lives, and the bitterness that they are now spewing at practically everyone at PSU will do nothing to bring back their son.
They certainly deserve a nice settlement, which they will hopefully use to make life easier for their surviving son and future grandchildren etc.
I wish they would temper their rage with the understanding that Tim was not murdered.........an adult, even a young adult, should know there is assumption of risk when you chug hard liquor.
The sad part of this is that sometime in the future, Mom and Dad will awake to realize that putting a dozen young men in jail and ruining their lives, and the bitterness that they are now spewing at practically everyone at PSU will do nothing to bring back their son.
They certainly deserve a nice settlement, which they will hopefully use to make life easier for their surviving son and future grandchildren etc.
I wish they would temper their rage with the understanding that Tim was not murdered.........an adult, even a young adult, should know there is assumption of risk when you chug hard liquor.
WROng. NObody is going to change their opinions on anything.
It is hilarious that you think PItt, Rutgers, UMD fans will suddenly say, "OUr bad, PSU is innocent."
The taint is there. NOthing anyone can say that will change it. The time to do something was years ago.
If you want to change the bad PR then don't give the press bad PR like Beta just did. MIght want to go a decade without anyone getting killed or raped. The BOT and administration had nothing to do with it.
In the mean time PSU sports teams should beat the rivals into submission.
^^^^ Who left the "Idiot Bag" open today? ^^^^
We got one running loose
Congratulations; you could not have missed my point or misread my post more completely. And you lose the bet.
And if they knew Penn State had a long history of turning a blind eye, why the hell did they let their so go to school there? I would not let my child go to a school if I thought it had a long history of looking the other way when someone was in trouble. More negligence on the part of the parents.
Apparently they don't really have a good grasp on just how big Penn State is. This isn't some little D-3 school where the university could do a better job of keeping an eye on students (even at those schools they can't) but Penn State is bigger than most small towns. It's a lot bigger than the town I grew up in and no one could have kept an eye on me and my buddies. This is an obvious set up to cash in on their son's death...disgusting.
How could any parent spend a penny the received from the death of their son? I can see wanting to see justice, that I can respect. But any parent that goes after a pay day on the back of their dead child disgusts me.
Whatever one may think of the Piazzas:
There is no question that PSU Leadership - primarily Damon Sims - placed Penn State's balls in a vice.
Actions they undertook of their own accord, over the last several YEARS - WELL BEFORE anyone ever heard of "Timmy Piazza" - and created a ticking bomb.
"Piazza" was only the first match that stumbled past and lit the fuse...... if not him, it would have - sooner or later - been someone else.
Sims/Penn State F-ed up royally. And they will now sacrifice/pay anything they can lay their hands on to protect their own asses.
That's not the Piazza's fault...... they were just the folks who happened to be waiting at the next bus stop.
The Piazzas were a lot at fault. They say Penn State has a long history of looking the other way yet they still sent their son there...huge fault. Their son drank more alcohol than a human should allow himself to drink...huge fault. Still not seeing how any of that is Penn State's fault.
It's not
Penn State's (Sims') fault is an entirely different issue - for entirely different reasons, which have been well delineated
Unfortunately, as is usually the case with situations like these, no one really takes a logical look at the situation - - - it just becomes an "I walked 3 miles each way to school, both uphill" type of thing
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