POLL: Should USWNT and USMNT both receive equal pay?

[AWS1022]

So you want politicians from the US to get involved with the issues of gender fiscal equality in other countries rather than focus on those same issues in this country. Where they are elected officials.

That’s your answer?

No, I was just making a point that until the women’s game as a whole generates the interest that the men’s game does, the pay won’t be the same. You don’t fix the outcome, if you can’t fix the problem.

 

[AWS1022]

Not sure where you live, but in northern NJ soccer is the #1 participatory sport by a long margin, for both genders. Less and less kids are playing football due to the risks involved. And most kids are bored by baseball, just too slow and not enough action for them.

It’s not the #1 sport in any of the areas I’ve lived. Football and basketball by a long shot and even baseball is more popular than soccer where I live now. I’m sure there are pockets throughout the country where soccer is big, but overall in the US football, basketball and baseball are still king.

 

[LeatherHelmets]

So the FC Dallas FC boys U15 soccer team who beat the USWNT 5-2 should expect a healthy payday? I am a big fan of the USWNT but the economics aren't there.

What was FIFA thinking with the schedule? The world's # 1 team with the largest TV market in the world doesn't play on the weekend? Playing on Tuesday afternoons isn't going to drive advertising revenues.

 

[nittany119]

It’s not the #1 sport in any of the areas I’ve lived. Football and basketball by a long shot and even baseball is more popular than soccer where I live now. I’m sure there are pockets throughout the country where soccer is big, but overall in the US football, basketball and baseball are still king.

I’ve been involved with youth soccer both rec and travel for over 15 years. It is much bigger in the tri state area than all 3 of those mentioned sports combined. Maybe it’s the demographics here vs where you’re located. Keep in mind I said participatory, not viewed on tv.

 

[junior1]

I have a better idea: No one gets paid for kicking a ball.

Even better thought, with so many on the team representing the United States unhappy with the United States, why do we need a Uswnt?

 

[PSUeng]

View embedded media

if the us government is paying teams of all sports it should pay the same flat fee to each player and provide equal fields, gyms and equipment. Have the two sexes train at the same place? If the player or sport has other funding, then it should be up to them to give it out as they see fit. if the top players get endorsements do they split their money with the bench warmer? It's complicated.

 

[heckmans]

But the US men were not part of the World Cup, were they?
Honest question because I don’t know. What are the salaries of each? Does each player on each team get the same salary or is there a salary scale for each team?

Here's a better article on the way each is paid

https://reason.com/2019/07/10/the-d...en-soccer-teams-pay-shows-why-markets-matter/

 

[Sproul]

So the FC Dallas FC boys U15 soccer team who beat the USWNT 5-2 should expect a healthy payday? I am a big fan of the USWNT but the economics aren't there.

What was FIFA thinking with the schedule? The world's # 1 team with the largest TV market in the world doesn't play on the weekend? Playing on Tuesday afternoons isn't going to drive advertising revenues.

Cripes, the girls were messing around in that scrimmage. They weren’t even keeping score on the field.

 

[BobPSU92]

Women should not be playing sports. They should be in the kitchen, baking cookies and getting a beer out of the fridge for the man in their lives.

Sure, but should they get paid for it?

 

[sluggo72]

Meanwhile a major opioid epidemic is tearing right through his state!!

Like it isn’t other states

 

[blion72]

I’ve been involved with youth soccer both rec and travel for over 15 years. It is much bigger in the tri state area than all 3 of those mentioned sports combined. Maybe it’s the demographics here vs where you’re located. Keep in mind I said participatory, not viewed on tv.

i have never lived anywhere where soccer is out drawing players and fans over football, basketball or baseball at the high school level. what state are you living in where the state championship soccer game outdraws the state HS football game?

at the little kid level (say 8th grade and down) there may be more players in soccer. what happens at the HS level. all my kids played soccer at youth level but the boys all went to FB/hockey/basketball/baseball at HS level.

 

[Obliviax]

In my mind, there are two leagues: Open and Women's. Play where you can make the most money, if your talent permits.

BTW, the USA Women's team was beaten by a TX high school U-15 boys league in a friendly in 2017.

Having said that, they should be entitled to a percentage of the cut commiserate with the open league.

 

[wbcincy]

Are they funded by the same entity? That is the case here as far as I know - the US Soccer Federation. Comparing different athletic levels of the same sport from completely different institutions I sn’t the right argument. If the USWNT is ‘paid’ less by the US Soccer Federation, that would be like women’s soccer players getting a scholarship of a lower value than men’s soccer players at the same school.

Good article here:

https://www.freep.com/story/money/b.../09/womens-soccer-uswnt-equal-pay/1676477001/

I still don’t get the argument. If the same guy owns the best WNBA team and the worst NBA team, it doesn’t mean he should pay them all the same.

NCAA scholarships isn’t a great example because that system is a disaster itself. If player were paid their actual worth, the men’s football and basketball teams would certainly and rightfully be paid much more.

 

[Waltwam]

The soccer labor market is global. There are figures going around that show that -- in the US --woman's soccer generates more revenue than men's. Okay, but on the world scale (where these teams compete for players) the two revenue streams not close to comparable. Maybe the women should be paid more than they are, but that has nothing to do with what men have to be paid to keep them on the US team, given that men's soccer globally is a far more profitable sport.

Should WNBA players also make what NBA players make? What about pro softball, maybe some of them should make what Bryce Harper makes?

Bryce Harper shouldn’t be making what Bryce Harper makes!

 

[nittany119]

i have never lived anywhere where soccer is out drawing players and fans over football, basketball or baseball at the high school level. what state are you living in where the state championship soccer game outdraws the state HS football game?

at the little kid level (say 8th grade and down) there may be more players in soccer. what happens at the HS level. all my kids played soccer at youth level but the boys all went to FB/hockey/basketball/baseball at HS level.

Northern NJ. I didn’t say outdraw to watch a game, I said to participate in. Ok, so your kids did that. I get it. I coached my son’s travel team. We kept that team together til they graduated high school. The club we played for had many boys and girls teams thru high school. I’m telling you that soccer has more kids playing thru all grade levels (I don’t mean just the high school j.v. And varsity team) than all the other sports.

 

[N&B4PSU]

Remains one of the silliest ideas of all time, but it is absolutely a sign of these f'd up times.

When people start pouring money (and viewership) into women's sports, the dollars will follow. But that ain't happening... maybe when all the "identify as women" dudettes take over women's sports, it just might... time will tell. But til then, get serious. Rather watch women play BB than men? Pigs flying. Now, maybe golf or tennis cuz hotness enters the equation. But soccer? Football? And so forth...

But here is the simple argument: Everyone hates me at my job and i lose more than I win, but i also make my company 1 BILLION dollars a year. They used to pay me $50 Million and i was kinda ok with that. 2 years ago, Megan came to our firm and everyone luvs her and she wins more deals than she loses... they just aren't big fish. So she makes the company $100 Million and the company was paying her $5 Million... and she got really pissed that I made more. Hey, she's sweet and wins a whole lot more than i do.

So the cowering boyboys running HR agreed and decided that since we both did the same thing, they'd pay us the same money. I was told I'd be taking a $45 Million pay cut. And Megan says that since she wins more than she loses, she should get a bigger bonus, too. They thought that was fair.

I quit. And all my big $$ customers went with me to my next company. My former company went broke. Megan now plays soccer.

Anyone think for 2 seconds a company would risk that kind of sheiss? Of course not. You make us money, we pay you. That is how it works. DDuh.

 

[roswelllion]

So the Division 3 college football champion should bring in more money than Pitt just because they win? How about the AAA baseball champion? Should they get paid more than the last place MLB team just because they win?

Exactly. What about

I still don’t get the argument. If the same guy owns the best WNBA team and the worst NBA team, it doesn’t mean he should pay them all the same.

NCAA scholarships isn’t a great example because that system is a disaster itself. If player were paid their actual worth, the men’s football and basketball teams would certainly and rightfully be paid much more.

Exactly what I was going to post.

 

[ChiTownLion]

If the women believe they are underpaid they should approach the men's team and offer to put all the men's and women's money in a pot and then play versus each other with the winner getting 75 percent and the loser getting 25 percent. Or some agreed to division. i.e. when the women can beat the men, or play them even, they should get equal pay.

Really, with all the sexual equality that is being pushed down every one's throats, why not just have one team and let the top players compete, regardless of sexual hardware, preference, etc.......

I've read about the transgender athletes that were men and are pawning themselves off as men and some organizations are making them test to women's testosterone levels in order to qualify for women's competition. Wonder if there are one or two "women" on the USWNST that would have trouble with that....

 

[baircub1!]

I’ve been involved with youth soccer both rec and travel for over 15 years. It is much bigger in the tri state area than all 3 of those mentioned sports combined. Maybe it’s the demographics here vs where you’re located. Keep in mind I said participatory, not viewed on tv.

Long Island , New Jersey and Connecticut Youth soccer is insane...

 

[bmw199]

I was thinking this morning about how the players, both sexes, make a small percentage of the revenue and where else it goes. I.e. what are the US Federation’s other expenses. When I thought about it I remembered the Federation is responsible for paying for development of the game and the underage national teams that don’t draw revenue at all. Which led me to what I think is a great question? Is the investment expense proportional to revenue generated by sex at the senior level?

I highly doubt it, which would mean women’s soccer as a whole draws way more money out of the pot than its revenue generating team (senior team) brings in. I could be wrong about that, but in general this hasn’t been brought up from anyone in the media or on this board that I’ve seen and just further goes to my answer of “its complicated.” If it can be proved the women bring in more revenue then pay them more, but the numbers don’t bare that out.

In entertainment you’re producing revenue from eyeballs, not wins from competition. How well you do in competition has very little to do with getting paid. The worst heavyweight boxer can make way more losing a big fight to a champ than a flyweight can winning a title.

 

[Nitwit97]

I think the women deserve a lot more ......
What have the men's team ever accomplished against other men's teams in the long hall.

The women have been more competitive so they deserve more pay.

So in your world the MAC champion should have a slot in the CFP just as much as the Big Ten Champion or SEC Champion

 

[BrianS]

The Men's U19 would beat every Women's World Cup Team. Period. The 34th ranked Thailand Women's Team lost 13-0 to the US...the Men's 34th ranked Serbia Team lost to Brazil 2-0 , tied Romania 2-2 and beat Lithuania 1-0 in the 2018 Men's WC. The competition levels are just very different. This is not to take anything away from the women because they are incredibly talented ..gifted and the best in the World ! But...to try and compare the men vs the women is just...more political grandstanding .

It's actually like that for EVERY sport!
As an example, I, personally, cannot watch the WNBA. Can't!!! The style of play is just not there to make me interested.

 

[RLCookie]

Why make this a gender thing? We don’t have equal pay for equal work anywhere. Yes an argument can made two people doing the same job for the company should be paid the same. But even that is sketchy, you need to consider things like performance, experience, etc. Once you get outside an individual company the factors increase exponentially.

If we’re going down this toad like someone to introduce a bill for equal pay for teachers. I work in the Red Lion Area School District. Teachers in the neighboring Dallastown District make $10,000 more for the same position with the same experience.

It would be interesting to look at what the person introducing the bill did when they worked in the private sector. It’s safe to say they were probably at the top of the pay scale for their respective job. I don’t know, I’m just speculating.

 

[interrobang]

Pro sports is a commodity. You get paid what the market says you're worth. It's as simple as that.

 

[BobPSU92]

It’s not the #1 sport in any of the areas I’ve lived. Football and basketball by a long shot and even baseball is more popular than soccer where I live now. I’m sure there are pockets throughout the country where soccer is big, but overall in the US football, basketball and baseball are still king.

So we're not going to take money from the men to pay the women equally?

LEFT. POCKET. , RIGHT. POCKET.

 

[Obliviax]

Why make this a gender thing? We don’t have equal pay for equal work anywhere. Yes an argument can made two people doing the same job for the company should be paid the same. But even that is sketchy, you need to consider things like performance, experience, etc. Once you get outside an individual company the factors increase exponentially.

If we’re going down this toad like someone to introduce a bill for equal pay for teachers. I work in the Red Lion Area School District. Teachers in the neighboring Dallastown District make $10,000 more for the same position with the same experience.

It would be interesting to look at what the person introducing the bill did when they worked in the private sector. It’s safe to say they were probably at the top of the pay scale for their respective job. I don’t know, I’m just speculating.

It is a good point. if it is a different league, it isn't equal work. Of course, everyone is for equal pay for equal quality work.

 

[SR108]

Remains one of the silliest ideas of all time, but it is absolutely a sign of these f'd up times.

When people start pouring money (and viewership) into women's sports, the dollars will follow. But that ain't happening... maybe when all the "identify as women" dudettes take over women's sports, it just might... time will tell. But til then, get serious. Rather watch women play BB than men? Pigs flying. Now, maybe golf or tennis cuz hotness enters the equation. But soccer? Football? And so forth...

But here is the simple argument: Everyone hates me at my job and i lose more than I win, but i also make my company 1 BILLION dollars a year. They used to pay me $50 Million and i was kinda ok with that. 2 years ago, Megan came to our firm and everyone luvs her and she wins more deals than she loses... they just aren't big fish. So she makes the company $100 Million and the company was paying her $5 Million... and she got really pissed that I made more. Hey, she's sweet and wins a whole lot more than i do.

So the cowering boyboys running HR agreed and decided that since we both did the same thing, they'd pay us the same money. I was told I'd be taking a $45 Million pay cut. And Megan says that since she wins more than she loses, she should get a bigger bonus, too. They thought that was fair.

I quit. And all my big $$ customers went with me to my next company. My former company went broke. Megan now plays soccer.

Anyone think for 2 seconds a company would risk that kind of sheiss? Of course not. You make us money, we pay you. That is how it works. DDuh.

Yea, but that's not fair.....

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

View embedded media

This isn’t about whether boys can beat women at sports. This board is terrible at times.

 

[heckmans]

Why should we care what the men's world cup generated globally? I mean this seriously. I have no idea who even pays the team's salary. In the USA, the last men's world cup final between France and Croatia drew 11.3 million American viewers. The women's world cup final just drew 14.3 million US viewers.

Thank you for admitting you know nothing about what you are expressing an opinion on. No offense, but everyone in this debate who chants "equal pay" is a damn moron who has no idea what they are talking about. World Cup pay outs are just a part of what US Soccer pays the players. Then there is the compensation structure that each team willingly negotiated with US Soccer(See the link I shared above). The men negotiated an all cash deal with bonuses for winning. The women negotiated base salaries with more stability up and down the roster and a host of fringe benefits. Aside from the cold hard fact that there is more money generated in men's sports than women's, the women negotiated a very different compensation structure. With risk comes reward and the women chose no risk.

 

[NittPicker]

Pro sports is a commodity. You get paid what the market says you're worth. It's as simple as that.

I like that perspective. I think about the quarter mile dirt racing track near me. Those guys put a lot of money and work into racing on weekends when they'll be lucky to win enough money to break even. The argument could be made they work harder than drivers in NASCAR or F1 who for the most part just show up to drive. The local dirt trackers do all their own engine and body work after their days jobs to be able to put the car on the track the following weekend.

Unfortunately for the local dirt trackers, hard work doesn't equal $$$ and the market is all about $$$. But hey, the local guys drive race cars as hard as the NASCAR and F1 folks. Why don't they get paid the same???

 

[heckmans]

This isn’t about whether boys can beat women at sports. This board is terrible at times.

Not directly, but indirectly it is a huge component of explaining the disparity of pay. Do people pay the same amount to watch MLB baseball as they do Double-A? Do the players get paid the same at both levels? I'm not attempting to mock or slander, but the fact of the matter is that the best women soccer team in the world is competitive with a decent group of teenage boys. As evidenced, people pay hundreds to watch MLB and $8 to watch AA. Now go look at attendance, ticket prices and viewership for MLS vs NWSL. You can also add in the NBA vs WNBA. The reduced market and interest for women's soccer(and sports in general) is b/c nature made our better halves smaller, slower, weaker, and less aggressive.
It appears that interest in women's soccer is growing and the compensation for talent will grow accordingly, but it's unthinkable to image that it will ever be "equal."

 

[KnightSlayer]

Thank you for admitting you know nothing about what you are expressing an opinion on. No offense, but everyone in this debate who chants "equal pay" is a damn moron who has no idea what they are talking about. World Cup pay outs are just a part of what US Soccer pays the players. Then there is the compensation structure that each team willingly negotiated with US Soccer(See the link I shared above). The men negotiated an all cash deal with bonuses for winning. The women negotiated base salaries with more stability up and down the roster and a host of fringe benefits. Aside from the cold hard fact that there is more money generated in men's sports than women's, the women negotiated a very different compensation structure. With risk comes reward and the women chose no risk.

I asked a question.

 

[Langmuir]

The reduced market and interest for women's soccer(and sports in general) is b/c nature made our better halves smaller, slower, weaker, and less aggressive.
It appears that interest in women's soccer is growing and the compensation for talent will grow accordingly, but it's unthinkable to image that it will ever be "equal."

But they are much better at growing babies in their belly than men are. It seems like some have a hard time accepting your point and my point.

 

[NittPicker]

But they are much better at growing babies in their belly than men are. It seems like some have a hard time accepting your point and my point.

Yeah but a man was required to put the baby there. Give credit where credit is due.

 

[OmniscientFan]

The USA Women's soccer team is keeping USA Soccer afloat. The men's team is a joke! So damn right they should be paid the same... if not more!

But this goes beyond just pay. In 2017 the USSF provided charter flights for the USMNT to play away games and tournaments outside of the U.S at least 17 times while failing to do the same for the USWNT even once. Meaning these women had to pay their own way to play.

Then there are the accommodations. In 2015, USWNT forward Alex Morgan publicly criticized the league for housing players in a hotel in Kansas City that was riddled with bed bugs and mold while they were playing for the Portland Thorns. Women's team hotels are basically 3 star hotel while the men a put up in 5 star hotels. Because of this the women are forced to pay for their own accommodations also.

What's going on with the women's team is the perfect definition of "sexism" and USA Soccer should be embarrassed!!!

 

[Pardlion]

The USA Women's soccer team is keeping USA Soccer afloat. The men's team is a joke! So damn right they should be paid the same... if not more!

But this goes beyond just pay. In 2017 the USSF provided charter flights for the USMNT to play away games and tournaments outside of the U.S at least 17 times while failing to do the same for the USWNT even once. Meaning these women had to pay their own way to play.

Then there are the accommodations. In 2015, USWNT forward Alex Morgan publicly criticized the league for housing players in a hotel in Kansas City that was riddled with bed bugs and mold while they were playing for the Portland Thorns. Women's team hotels are basically 3 star hotel while the men a put up in 5 star hotels. Because of this the women are forced to pay for their own accommodations also.

What's going on with the women's team is the perfect definition of "sexism" and USA Soccer should be embarrassed!!!

They were housed in a crappy hotel because the women’s professional league makes no money because no one cares about it.

 

[YYZ86]

Northern NJ. I didn’t say outdraw to watch a game, I said to participate in. Ok, so your kids did that. I get it. I coached my son’s travel team. We kept that team together til they graduated high school. The club we played for had many boys and girls teams thru high school. I’m telling you that soccer has more kids playing thru all grade levels (I don’t mean just the high school j.v. And varsity team) than all the other sports.

In 2017 (don't have 2018 or 2019 numbers and don't feel like searching), soccer was third nationwide. Basketball had almost twice (x 1.9) the participants and baseball had about x1.5 the number of participants. This is for kids ages 6-12. For this age group, soccer participation has dropped 14% (about 600,000 athletes) in the last 3 or 4 years. That is by far the largest drop of any sport. Don't know if true, but many articles and people in soccer claim that club travel teams are hurting the numbers. They say the cost and putting kids in pressure situations at too young an age are the reason for the huge drop in soccer. All other major sports have seen a net rise over that time period. As for high school, about 80% of all youth athletes are done with team sports when they hit 15 or 16 years old. Most kids are done with high school sports by 10th grade.

 

[Erial_Lion]

The USA Women's soccer team is keeping USA Soccer afloat. The men's team is a joke! So damn right they should be paid the same... if not more!

What do you mean by "The USA Women's soccer team is keeping USA Soccer afloat."? Are you trying to imply that it's the Women's teams that have been paying the bills over the past 5, 10, or 25 years? And that the men's national team is a money loser?

And what about the men's team is a "joke"? We're a top 20-30 country over the past generation (probably closer to 20 than 30). Does that mean that only about 15 countries on earth aren't "jokes" when it comes to men's soccer? You might be able to say that about the women's side, but the bashing of the men's team is dumb.

 

[heckmans]

I asked a question, dipshit.

Apologies. FTR, I did not call you a moron, but you did seem to insinuate that overall WC revenues aren't relevant and women's had higher ratings in the US.
If interested, I will answer your questions.

Why should we care what the men's world cup generated globally?
[FIFA dedicates a percentage of overall WC revenues to player compensation. It is no based on revenue generated in a particular region or country. The last numbers I saw were 9% to the men and 13% to the women]

I mean this seriously. I have no idea who even pays the team's salary.
[In the US, US Soccer is the governing body. It pays the players based on a collectively bargained agreement. WC revenues are just a portion of their compensation.]

In the USA, the last men's world cup final between France and Croatia drew 11.3 million American viewers. The women's world cup final just drew 14.3 million US viewers.
[This is not relevant to how WC money is distributed to countries/players. Also, it is comparing apples and oranges to compare interest in the US women's team to men from Croatia and France.
The men did not qualify for the 2018 WC, but let's take a look at the last WC that the men played in. In 2014, the Men's final between Germany and Argentina drew 26.5M viewers. The Group-stage match between the US and Portugal drew 24.7M viewers. To summarize that, in 2014, an early stage group match for the US Men drew 172% more viewers than the US Women in the WC final in 2019.]

 

[heckmans]

The USA Women's soccer team is keeping USA Soccer afloat. The men's team is a joke! So damn right they should be paid the same... if not more!

But this goes beyond just pay. In 2017 the USSF provided charter flights for the USMNT to play away games and tournaments outside of the U.S at least 17 times while failing to do the same for the USWNT even once. Meaning these women had to pay their own way to play.

Then there are the accommodations. In 2015, USWNT forward Alex Morgan publicly criticized the league for housing players in a hotel in Kansas City that was riddled with bed bugs and mold while they were playing for the Portland Thorns. Women's team hotels are basically 3 star hotel while the men a put up in 5 star hotels. Because of this the women are forced to pay for their own accommodations also.

What's going on with the women's team is the perfect definition of "sexism" and USA Soccer should be embarrassed!!!

Let's clarify one thing. You are slamming US Soccer, but then half of your case is that a different entity (NWSL) chooses 3-star hotels to house players when traveling for the fledgling league, citing one instance when a hotel had poor conditions.

Now, please clarify your first post about "paying their own way." Are you stating that the women got on price-line and booked flights on their Discover cards to get to their national team games?
It's more than likely, for a variety of reasons, that US Soccer booked and paid for commercial flights. I won't begin to defend or dissect the disparity as I have no knowledge of what goes into that decision, though I suspect it has something to do with how each team negotiated their collective bargaining agreement which is driven by the amount of money generated by the respective team.

If the women think that the men are getting some of what they deserve, I'd like to suggest a remedy. US Soccer should spin-off control of the USWNT to a separate body (ie US Women's Soccer). The new body can interface with FIFA and pay the players exactly what they are worth.