Q
- Thread starter Nittany Ned2
- Start date
Take the $. Better that than be in the hole and spend your first ten years digging out. Lawyers I know rarely make big dollars.
A
anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
Best. School. You. Get. Into. IMO.
Down the road it won't matter as much, but for your first job, your school matters (not to mention the inherited network). I'm not a lawyer, but my wife is. Here's a bit of what I'm talking about - A friend of ours decided a bit after undergrad (Berkeley) to go to law school. So, they went part time to American University. For their final year, they transferred to Michigan and before taking one class had several requests for interviews from big time firms. Also, check out this transcript of SC Justice Antonin Scalia speaking at American University's Washington School of Law. It's tough to take, but true (from Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History Podcast transcript):
The students are all dressed up for the occasion, C-SPAN is recording, there's a big stage hung with blue polyester drapes. Scalia holds forth, his black hair swept back from his forehead, glasses on his nose, strong and square, all intellectual heft and force, gripping the podium like it's a slab of beef.
AS
Administrative Law is not for sissies. It is a very difficult course to teach, and I assume - it certainly was in my day - a hard course to master.
MG
00:58
It's vintage Scalia. The audience hangs on his every word. He finishes triumphantly then hands shoot in the air.
CS
01:09
Good afternoon. My name is Christina Stutt, I'm a 1L student here at WCL.
MG
01:12
Christina Stutt, first year student.
CS
01:15
I have a more general question and that is that part of the American ethos is that our society is a meritocracy where hard work and talent lead to success, but there are other important factors like connections and elite degrees and I'm wondering, other than grades and journal, what do smart, hardworking WCL students with strong writing skills need to do to be sick outrageously successful in the law?
MG
01:36
"What does it take to be outrageously successful in the law."
AS
01:45
Hahaha. Just work hard and be very good. Now, I'll tell you a story...
MG
01:53
My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This episode is part two of my examination of the bizarre things the legal profession does to pick its best and brightest.
MG
02:15
In part one, which if you haven't listened to, you probably should, I took the law school admissions test along with my assistant, Camille, and couldn't understand why they made me rush through all the questions. But now, in part two, we have bigger fish to fry. I'm going to serve up Malcolm Gladwell's grand unified theory of how to fix American legal education. No, make that my grand unified theory for fixing all American higher education.
MG
02:47
And what is our text for this discussion of Gladwell's grand unified theory? It's the answer Justice Scalia gave to the unfortunate Christina Stutt.
AS
02:58
You know, by and large, and unless I have a professor on the faculty who's a good friend, and preferably a former law clerk of mine whose judgment I can trust, I'm going to be picking for Supreme Court law clerks, I can't afford a miss. I just can't. So I'm going to be picking from the law schools that, basically, are the hardest to get into. They admit the best and the brightest and they may not teach very well, but you can't make a sow's ear out of a silk purse. And if they come in the best and the brightest, they're probably going to leave the best and the brightest.
MG
03:39
Let's pretend to be fine legal minds for a moment and closely parse the meaning and implication of Scalia's statement. A student at American University's Washington College of Law, a law school that US News and World Report ranked 77 among all American law schools, is asking a question of a sitting justice of the US Supreme Court who graduated from Harvard Law School. She's basically asking him would it be possible to be one of his clerks, and he answers, "You go to American University's Washington College of Law. You have no chance of becoming one of my clerks. I only hire people who went to Harvard like I did."
If wants to be a judge or get into academia go
To better school. If not take the money.
a buddy of mine who i went to law school with (expensive) had that choice and has said on several occasions he should have taken the money (even though he never would have met me if he did lol).
And one of our classmates clerked for Scalia - even though we did not go to Harvard....
To better school. If not take the money.
a buddy of mine who i went to law school with (expensive) had that choice and has said on several occasions he should have taken the money (even though he never would have met me if he did lol).
And one of our classmates clerked for Scalia - even though we did not go to Harvard....
Don’t we have too many lawyers as it is?
A
anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
Do you know the ones who went to Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, Yale, and NYU? I don't necessarily disagree - it really depends on the kind of work someone wants to do after they graduate - but prestige aside, the network of a valuable brand is worth a ton. In my experience, people I know who went to prestigious schools are either a) from wealthy families and can afford to do whatever they want (public service, non-profit, etc.) or b) very talented and able to make a lot of money - in large part because if their name and connections don't get them access, their degree does.
I am with Midnighter on this. For lawyers, even 40 years after graduating, the first thing they ask is "where did you go to school?" If the person can do the Ivy League, done deal/whatever it takes. I'd borrow the money at 15% if I had to. Add to the Ivy League; Stanford, Chicago, NYU, UVa, NW, UC-Berkley, Michigan, Duke, Georgetown, UCLA, UT, USC, Vandy, ND, and Case. On these, I'd borrow at 5%.
If he/she can graduate with a 3.0 or better and pass the bar exam, easy peasy.
So the law schools that are the hardest to get into aren't teaching very well? But to get anywhere in law, you need to go to those schools that don't teach very well? That explains a lot right there about our justice system right now.
A
anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
I mean, a sitting Supreme Court Justice said that. And while baffling, it's true - not just in government. His comment about 'not making a sow's ear out of a silk purse' suggests that if you are bright and talented, elite schools, even if considered 'poor teachers', will not make you worse for your experience. That you were admitted is proof enough of your skill and talent.
LOL...great observation.
Here are the facts....colleges only teach you how to learn and process. the actual information is secondary and, today, available on the WWW in a second. Once you learn hard work, how to learn and how to process...it is a matter of credentials.
I went to a good school that nobody has ever heard of. As a result my starting line, if the 100 meter dash was a career, was about 17 meters behind those that graduated name brand schools. I wasn't mature enough, at that time, and didn't have the resources. Regardless, I've seen tons of people get ahead very quickly based on their college credentials alone. (many others, to be fair, are simply superior)
Attending the top tier law schools opens doors that attendees of lower level schools don't even know exist. Still, your question only presents two extremes. Scholarship money but poor school or great school with no money. It is rare that we face those extremes. My guess is that you present your question in this manner to distill a hoped-for answer. I trust it has been answered.
There are are three levels of law schools. Just google the law schools that have produced the supreme court justices.
There are are three levels of law schools. Just google the law schools that have produced the supreme court justices.
The bigger question is what the kid wants to do when he gets out of law school. If he wants to work for a top firm in a big city where he can some day earn a seven figure salary, then he should go for the best law school he can get into. If he wants to be a warrior for social justice, then he should go for the best law school offering scholarships.
Law School would be my choice. Why?
- There is no topping out once you get your law degree. If you get your PhD, that is a heck of an achievement but where can you go from there?
- When you have your law degree, people don't F with you. My wife has a PhD. in her middle age, she went to law school. She has become a kickass MFer and nobody messes with her. Ever.
- There are so many career paths you can take with your law degree. Lets say he/she wants to stay in the sciences. You can prosecute, defend and/or write contracts.
Like any other lawyerly answer, "it depends." What does the student want to do, and what are their career goals? For example, if the student has strong connections to a certain city or region and has no desire to really practice elsewhere, it might very well be worth taking a free ride at a lower-ranked school. If an applicant knows that they want to practice in Cleveland, Pittsburgh, or Philadelphia, there's absolutely merit in taking full-ride scholarship opportunities at schools like Case Western, Pitt, Temple, and Villanova. Or, if you come from a family of attorneys who have a small law practice in central Pennsylvania, and you know you're going to take over the family business one day, there's certainly merit in taking a full ride at somewhere like Dickinson or Penn State. Want to practice in Texas? UT's law school often beats out the Yales and Harvards for placement in Texas. Same with UCLA/USC in LA. So it really does depend.
On the other hand, there are a lot of applicants out there who either (a) don't really know what they want to do or where they want to do it; (b) want to work in a large, high-profile legal market like NYC, DC, or San Francisco/Silicon Valley; or (c) have a strong desire at one of the "unicorn" legal jobs like clerking on the Supreme Court, working in international human rights law, the Natural Resources Defense Council, or the ACLU, or in one of the high-profile federal government agencies. If your applicant fits into one of those general categories, there is absolutely merit to going to the best school that you can get into. Especially for those "unicorn" jobs, it's very, very, very difficult to have those types of doors opened for you if you don't have the right kind of school on your resume. Chances are, if you attend one of those schools, you'll end up landing a job as an associate at a large law firm in one of the major legal markets, billing crazy hours but making almost $200,000 in your first year. Even if that isn't necessarily what your applicant wants to do, it's an awfully comfortable living to carve out for yourself while you figure it out.
Overall though, I'd prefer to have the option to go to one of the top schools in the country than to not have that option, so the student is on the right track so far. A 170 LSAT and a 3.95 GPA will make this applicant not only competitive at those top schools, but also competitive for scholarship money at some of the schools on the lower end of the T14 like Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or Georgetown.
My suggestion would be, on the first day that applications open this fall, to submit applications to all of the "top 14" schools (yes, including Yale, Harvard, and Stanford - a 170/3.95 is slightly on the low end for those schools, but you never know), and then apply to the best schools in some of the regions where the applicant thinks that he/she might want to practice in. But (and I can't stress this enough) apply early - especially with the virus lingering into the fall, it wouldn't be surprising to see a whole lot of potential applicants think about law school as a way to ride things out for a few years, like what happened during the recession.
On the other hand, there are a lot of applicants out there who either (a) don't really know what they want to do or where they want to do it; (b) want to work in a large, high-profile legal market like NYC, DC, or San Francisco/Silicon Valley; or (c) have a strong desire at one of the "unicorn" legal jobs like clerking on the Supreme Court, working in international human rights law, the Natural Resources Defense Council, or the ACLU, or in one of the high-profile federal government agencies. If your applicant fits into one of those general categories, there is absolutely merit to going to the best school that you can get into. Especially for those "unicorn" jobs, it's very, very, very difficult to have those types of doors opened for you if you don't have the right kind of school on your resume. Chances are, if you attend one of those schools, you'll end up landing a job as an associate at a large law firm in one of the major legal markets, billing crazy hours but making almost $200,000 in your first year. Even if that isn't necessarily what your applicant wants to do, it's an awfully comfortable living to carve out for yourself while you figure it out.
Overall though, I'd prefer to have the option to go to one of the top schools in the country than to not have that option, so the student is on the right track so far. A 170 LSAT and a 3.95 GPA will make this applicant not only competitive at those top schools, but also competitive for scholarship money at some of the schools on the lower end of the T14 like Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or Georgetown.
My suggestion would be, on the first day that applications open this fall, to submit applications to all of the "top 14" schools (yes, including Yale, Harvard, and Stanford - a 170/3.95 is slightly on the low end for those schools, but you never know), and then apply to the best schools in some of the regions where the applicant thinks that he/she might want to practice in. But (and I can't stress this enough) apply early - especially with the virus lingering into the fall, it wouldn't be surprising to see a whole lot of potential applicants think about law school as a way to ride things out for a few years, like what happened during the recession.
Some great points...I've got an acquaintance that got into a high-end dental school when his sister, with much better credentials, didn't get in three years ago. Why? No foreign students expected this fall. (Dad is a dentist with several stores). Also, leave no stone unturned. My wife applied and called. Found out they were sitting down on Monday to begin the process. They have three piles: In, Out, maybe. They then spent several weeks pouring over the maybes. Out was due to several factors, one being an incomplete application. She called first thing Monday morning and found out her transcripts were not included. She got in the car, drove the 45 minutes to the university. She found her transcripts sitting on an admin's desk. She grabbed them and marched into the meeting room. They took her application out of the "out" pile and into the "maybe" pile. When she got accepted, she was told she got in because they admired her spunk and work ethic. She's one of those people that excels at everything except taking tests.
I've been in practice for over 4 decades. I will be brief. I would take the scholarship. Better yet, I would go to carpentry school. (No smiley or winky face. I am serious.)
As others have said, if there is a profession where the name of the school matters, it's the legal profession. And if the kid in question really has what it takes to finish really high in his or her class, then the difference is even greater.
I personally suggest UAS — University of American Samoa. Top notch.
Agree with this 100%. You want big law, and to work at a place like Cravath or Debevoise you go to the top 10 law school, as they recruit almost exclusively from these schools. They are starting associates at nearly 200k and partners earn outrageous money. Of course you will sell your soul and work ungodly hours, but that’s what it takes.
Is the young person happy working at a stellar regional firm and making a few hundred g’s? Go to the lesser school, take the money, graduate in the upper half of the class or so and no worries. He/She may even have something that resembles a life outside of work as well.
It's not a straightforward answer.
If you have a kid who just "knows" he wants to make gobs of money, or pursue some very influential role (politics, etc.), you aim for the Ivies (plus a few select others), regardless of cost.
If you have someone who just wants to save the world by being a public interest lawyer, you take the money.
But the catch is, things change. I know plenty of liberal arts majors, who went to law school to save the world and help the underprivileged who ended up being corporate lawyers at BigLaw firms, slaving away 70-80 hours a week to make partner. And I know plenty of folks with technical/business degrees who went into law school to make gobs of money, and ended up doing something more philanthropic and/or other than actually practicing law.
So, do you want the "safety net" of knowing you have no real bills to pay after you graduate from law school, and you're free to pursue whatever professional avenue you wish ... or do you want the "safety net" of knowing that you can basically screw off in law school, and get a killer job, regardless?
And, often, it's even messier than that ... you could get admitted to Harvard with very little financial aid, you could get a full ride at a lesser school, like Suffolk, and you could get some money (half tuition, perhaps) from a top, but not elite school, like a BC/BU (using eastern MA examples because that's what I'm most familiar with). Penn (elite), Temple (blah), Fordham (good) might be the closest comparative for PA (not many great, but not elite, schools in that area).
Also consider the prospective region the person will be living in ... a degree from Temple may not be that bad if you're a Philly native sure you're going to settle in Philly ... but if you want to move around, or aren't sure ... Temple's going to be pretty blah to prospective employers ... and they'll even wonder why a Philly native went to a regional school and now wants to move out of the region (at least early on in their career).
Me? I'd go Ivy/Ivy equivalent, but it's not an easy choice. I actually went through a similar decision ... adding to the craziness was the fact that I wanted to pursue a JD/MBA dual degree, so things get really crazy when considering both the law school and the business schools, for various reasons ... the details of which I won't bore anyone with.
Your second point simply isn’t true. We’re all lawyers here, and we f*ck with each other all the time.
I will preface this by saying that I'm an attorney who runs a successful solo practice with as good of a work/life balance as I could reasonably hope for. I am happy with my chosen career path. However, I've found most attorneys are either happy with their pay and hate their work or workload, or like what they do but are grossly underpaid. There isn't much of a middle ground in this line of work.
To me, your answer that he "really doesn't know what to do," tells me that he should not attend law school right now without doing his homework. Law school is a good option for someone who (a) is 100% positive they want to become a lawyer (b) can avoid or limit debt and/or (c) has a job lined up (i.e. taking over family practice) or reasonable prospects at obtaining a desired job.
From the limited information you provided, it appears he's at a crossroads between a career in science or law, which tells me he should not choose law. The conventional advice I typically provide college students or graduates looking to go to law school is to focus on what their "backup" career is, and to go work a job in that field. If he goes into science and happens to enjoy it, he can avoid 3 years of study without an income. If the itch to go to law school is still there, he can always go later.
If he decides to attend law school, the decision on where to go and whether to take a scholarship or eat the cost at a top school really depends on what he's looking to do. Is he looking to teach, work at a big firm, or land a prestigious clerkship? If the answer is no, and he decides to go to law school, take as much money as you can.
Let's assume he decides to eat the cost of going to a top school and does reasonably well. In this scenario, he's going make $150-$250K with six figures worth of debt while working from sun-up to sun-down in front of a computer to meet his billable hour requirements. If he hates it, he's going to feel the pressure to stay there to pay off the massive debt he's accrued, all in the hopes of making partner.
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Yet those who are the must successful - in almost all fields - are those with the highest EQ ( Emotional Intelligence) - not IQ.LOL...great observation.
Here are the facts....colleges only teach you how to learn and process. the actual information is secondary and, today, available on the WWW in a second. Once you learn hard work, how to learn and how to process...it is a matter of credentials.
I went to a good school that nobody has ever heard of. As a result my starting line, if the 100 meter dash was a career, was about 17 meters behind those that graduated name brand schools. I wasn't mature enough, at that time, and didn't have the resources. Regardless, I've seen tons of people get ahead very quickly based on their college credentials alone. (many others, to be fair, are simply superior)
Your second point simply isn’t true. We’re all lawyers here, and we f*ck with each other all the time.
Sounds like this kid is a perpetual student who doesn't want to commit to any discipline. As my old man would have said, 'shit or get off the pot.'
If he wants a big law firm or a prestigious government type job (high paid district attorney offices or fed prosecutor) then he should go to the name school. Otherwise, take as much money as possible from the school and save yourself from debt.
I had an intern to had a full ride to a decent law school, however, he gave it up for a chance at Boalt (UC Berkley)....It was an expensive decision....He was top 5 in his class at the decent law school, and that would have probably gotten him most big firm jobs or a DA job.
So a brief edit, if you can graduate in top 5 or 10 of your class, you should still be able to get a big firm job at a decent law school. It's a lot easier to be average at a name school and still get a big time first job
I had an intern to had a full ride to a decent law school, however, he gave it up for a chance at Boalt (UC Berkley)....It was an expensive decision....He was top 5 in his class at the decent law school, and that would have probably gotten him most big firm jobs or a DA job.
So a brief edit, if you can graduate in top 5 or 10 of your class, you should still be able to get a big firm job at a decent law school. It's a lot easier to be average at a name school and still get a big time first job
I didn't read anyone else's response so maybe this has been said repeatedly, but for the love of God, go to the best school you possibly can if you plan to work in a corporate law firm. If you want hang your own shingle in your hometown, fine, take the discount. But if you want to work for Latham, Jones Day, or even just the top regional firm in your city, you open up your options by going to the best school. A kid in the middle of the pack at Harvard is getting a job over a top 10 kid at a middle of the pack law school at those firms. Plus the connections those high echelon schools provide to your network as you start developing a book. And if you do things right, you'll make up that scholarship money in your first couple years working for the much better law firm you were able to get a job at.
It's essentially, do you want $100 a year for the next 3 years, or $1,000 a year for life after that.
If, as many “smart” kids, he’s inclined toward the technical aspects of big law, by all means go to the ranked school. Smaller schools will generally constrain your choice of geography. The sad reality is that big law firms interview out of best schools, with some exceptions for their home turf schools.
Big law partner
Those lawyers did not go to the schools that are options for this kid.
A kid going to a lesser school and graduating in the "upper half" is not getting a job at a stellar regional firm. He's not even getting an interview. I had to finish in the top 10% of my class at my lesser school, with law review editor, 2 years of work experience managing a business between undergrad and law school, and of course my incredible and dynamic personality, to even manage a single offer from a stellar regional firm. Meanwhile the kids I was a summer associate with from Harvard, Cornell, Columbia, etc were middle of the road at their schools (and had enough leverage to be permitted to split their summer between two firms, or my firm at the time and Procter & Gamble, etc).
Now that I've read the thread, there's a lot of good advice here. If you want to work at the top firms in the country or your region, you have to go the big name school. But if that's not what's for you, then take the money. I guess I just assume the kid working hard enough for the 3.95 and 170 LSAT isn't looking to be a public defender. Strikes me as someone with the drive and desire to work at the top firms.
To be fair, none of them are teaching well. It's pretty shocking how little 3 years of education prepares you to actually practice law. It'd be like if you went to a trade school for plumbing and all they taught you for 3 years was the history of pipes and how to google plumbing issues.
There is another view which would hold that law school teaches you how to "think like a lawyer" while exposing you to substantive law. On graduation day you know more law than you will ever know again.
Those two results provide the foundation from which to learn how to actually practice law.
I think what you’re saying is valid for year 1 of law school: contracts, property, constitution, procedure, legal research and writing, etc, all good. But then doing the same process with just additional topics for 2 years? Well now that’s silly. Those second two years should be spent walking through the actual process of drafting and editing contracts, bringing in a case, following the procedure, drafting discovery, deposition and witness outlines, taking depositions and examining witnesses, objecting to and responding to objection, etc etc. That’s the law. Instead you get 1 trial advocacy course, moot court, and 12 classes on obscure areas of law you’ll never deal with again in your life.
A lot of this is self-selection, too. At my school, outside of the first year, the only required courses were evidence, professional responsibility (or a similar substitute), and a one-credit upper level legal research class. Outside of that? It's up to you. I filled my second and third years with various trial advocacy classes, legal writing for transactional lawyers (contract drafting!), and then a bunch of extracurriculars (internships, law review, moot court, TAing first-year legal writing classes, etc.) that gave course credit. There were a handful of the fluffy "X and the law" type of classes, sure, but I would estimate that 50% or more of my second and third year classes were more experiential than doctrinal. Schools are pushing that path for upper-level students in a big way now, especially at schools outside of the T14.
I went to UVa for law school. I loved UVa and would have gone there again. I would go to a top 10 law school and pay. After a top 10 school I would consider taking a scholarship. I got offered full scholarships at Florida and Arizona. I got into Duke, Michigan, UCLA and Cornell. Only did not get into Yale and Cal.
Nobody asks me what my GPA was now. Just that I went to UVa. I wanted to go to a law school with big time sports. I also wanted to see if I could get into Yale which only accepts 7% of applicants. I did not.
Nobody can take a top 10 law school degree from you regardless of what you do for a living in the future.
Also by going to a top law school you are surrounding yourself with successful friends for the rest of your life. Also in law school you learn as much if not more from your fellow students than you do from the professors.
At UVa, one of my professors was Pamela Karlan and she almost got nominated by Obama to the Surpreme court. She has testified in front of Congress as well. She is now a professor at Stanford and specializes in Voting rights. I had two classes with her. Another professor, Michael Klareman, taught 4 classes that I took on constitutional law and is now at Harvard. You get professors like that at the top schools
Aim high
P.S. it was a no brainer for me to go to UVa as they also gave me a full scholarship. Never knew what Michigan would have offered bc as soon as Virginia offered me the money I accepted.
Nobody asks me what my GPA was now. Just that I went to UVa. I wanted to go to a law school with big time sports. I also wanted to see if I could get into Yale which only accepts 7% of applicants. I did not.
Nobody can take a top 10 law school degree from you regardless of what you do for a living in the future.
Also by going to a top law school you are surrounding yourself with successful friends for the rest of your life. Also in law school you learn as much if not more from your fellow students than you do from the professors.
At UVa, one of my professors was Pamela Karlan and she almost got nominated by Obama to the Surpreme court. She has testified in front of Congress as well. She is now a professor at Stanford and specializes in Voting rights. I had two classes with her. Another professor, Michael Klareman, taught 4 classes that I took on constitutional law and is now at Harvard. You get professors like that at the top schools
Aim high
P.S. it was a no brainer for me to go to UVa as they also gave me a full scholarship. Never knew what Michigan would have offered bc as soon as Virginia offered me the money I accepted.
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They run a great softball tournament at UVA as well
Yes they do and I played a ton of softball. I loved UVa.
A lot of good stuff here - WBCINCY in particular hits a lot of stuff on the head.
In my opinion, the perfect career path would be to get a good big firm gig out of school and pay off loans quickly if you want. For this, you’d want to go to the highest ranked school that accepted you (or a close facsimile) as that’s the easiest path to such a position. Honestly, knowing what I know, I’d pick UVA law over all schools except maybe Harvard/Stanford/Yale unless I wanted to clerk or work for the ultra elitist firms like Cravath (who don’t recruit from more than 3 or 4 schools). A UVA degree gives you plenty of prestige, a huge network, but you’re not around a bunch of grade-grubbing sociopaths for 3 years. Can’t say that about Harvard for sure.
With a great school and firm on your resume, and little if any debt load, the legal world would then be your oyster. You’d have the flexibility to do whatever you want - work yourself to death to make partner at a sweatshop if that is your goal or do work that excites you but doesn’t pay as well, or find some position paying reasonably well that provides you great work-life balance.
Or, you can do what I did - bust your ass for 5 years at big firms, get enough time under your belt to change jurisdictions without taking another bar, move to a much cooler, laid back town, and go in-house. I wear jeans pretty much every day, make my own hours (though work pretty hard depending on work flow), and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, don’t have to bill hours. I can’t stress to you enough how liberating that is. I do work that needs to be done and if I’m done at 3, I can leave. I can research issues or read up on an interesting topic without it being “wasted” non-billable time - same with going home early to celebrate my son’s birthday or something similar. When I was at a firm, when I wasn’t billing, I was getting antsy.
Another great thing about being in-house - walking into a conference and having firms that might not have given your pretty solid law school resume a second look practically chase you down the hall wanting your time. I’m a very unpretentious person, but knowing what a bunch of dicks a lot of big firm partners are, it’s nice to see them grovel at times.
In my opinion, the perfect career path would be to get a good big firm gig out of school and pay off loans quickly if you want. For this, you’d want to go to the highest ranked school that accepted you (or a close facsimile) as that’s the easiest path to such a position. Honestly, knowing what I know, I’d pick UVA law over all schools except maybe Harvard/Stanford/Yale unless I wanted to clerk or work for the ultra elitist firms like Cravath (who don’t recruit from more than 3 or 4 schools). A UVA degree gives you plenty of prestige, a huge network, but you’re not around a bunch of grade-grubbing sociopaths for 3 years. Can’t say that about Harvard for sure.
With a great school and firm on your resume, and little if any debt load, the legal world would then be your oyster. You’d have the flexibility to do whatever you want - work yourself to death to make partner at a sweatshop if that is your goal or do work that excites you but doesn’t pay as well, or find some position paying reasonably well that provides you great work-life balance.
Or, you can do what I did - bust your ass for 5 years at big firms, get enough time under your belt to change jurisdictions without taking another bar, move to a much cooler, laid back town, and go in-house. I wear jeans pretty much every day, make my own hours (though work pretty hard depending on work flow), and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, don’t have to bill hours. I can’t stress to you enough how liberating that is. I do work that needs to be done and if I’m done at 3, I can leave. I can research issues or read up on an interesting topic without it being “wasted” non-billable time - same with going home early to celebrate my son’s birthday or something similar. When I was at a firm, when I wasn’t billing, I was getting antsy.
Another great thing about being in-house - walking into a conference and having firms that might not have given your pretty solid law school resume a second look practically chase you down the hall wanting your time. I’m a very unpretentious person, but knowing what a bunch of dicks a lot of big firm partners are, it’s nice to see them grovel at times.
