So Brooks sits on Friday...

[burnsie1983]

The team I root for skipped an entire mid-season tournament. It's ok.

You root for a team?

 

[Flying_Tiger]

Please, would any of you accusing coaches of "ducking" provide some actual proof? Not conjecture, not circumstantial evidence, but actual proof? You are making claims about people's ethics . . . and you either do not know the circumstances or are not divulging the truth.

Penn State has had its way all season long and will have its day in 5 weeks, seeds be damned. What is there to bellyache about?

Circumstantial evidence is a credible form of proof. Numerous people get convicted of serious crimes in this country on circumstantial evidence alone. So if it's sufficient to reach the beyond a reasonable doubt standard in a criminal court, I'm pretty sure it's sufficient to form an opinion in a college wrestling forum.

 

[El-Jefe]

Circumstantial evidence by itself does not hold up. Always gets corroborated with some hard facts. Who here has talked with any of the wrestlers, coaches, trainers, or doctors to confirm that these truly are not medical issues?

So far all we have is a few anonymous internet people deciding for themselves that THERE IS AN ISSUE THAT MUST BE ADDRESSED !!!!

Those who would be doing the addressing -- Cael Sanderson, Tom Brands, Tom Ryan, Rob Koll, etc. -- might not be so easily persuaded by this evidence. One of them might even ask do you have a plan?

 

[Flying_Tiger]

Most criminal cases that go to trial are in fact based on circumstantial evidence. If there is direct evidence like video they don't go to trial. Those cases are usually plea bargained.

 

[slushhead]

These are not criminal cases, even though some are acting like they are.

Perception is not always reality outside your own head.

Did anyone notice that Dudley got beaten badly on Friday? Ever think maybe something was going on with him that called for taking Sunday off?

Was something going on with Brooks that called for him to wrestle only the second of 2 tough matches this weekend?

I don't know, and neither do the people crying "duck".

Calling stalling, gassing, lung breaks, what have you, is not the same as questioning a head coach's ethics. The latter carries more gravity and, therefore, should not be thrown around without some actual first-hand knowledge.

Still waiting to see the data supporting a claim that the sport is being "hurt" by wrestlers taking breaks before rolling into the postseason...I hope fans still find the inner strength to overcome their outrage over such crimes and watch the championship tournaments.

 

[RoarLions1]

Slush,
You are being a bit cranky. What's up?
There is no objective data. One of those if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it might just be a duck type of thing.

It isn't any different than watching a kid have to tie his shoes 10 times a match, or adjust his headgear every whistle start. Or better yet, watching Mark Perry get up 10 times during the Martinez Nolf Big10 championship match to question the refs and maximize the review process.
We have no idea what goes through a kid's head as he ties and retires his shoes, but we can see him breathing hard. We had no idea what was actually going through Perry's head, but we know the result was he slowed the match down for Martinez and improved his odds of winning against Nolf.

No, we are not sure of intent - only the appearance.

I agree, in the end I do not think it matters. BoJo is going to have to wrestle Mark.

Brands (Brooks) and Manning (Dudley) are positioning their kids for the best placement possible but neither is getting past Dean or Nickal.

Right now the appearance is Cael is training his kids to win championships. The others are playing games looking to maneuver their kids into better finishes.

I'm with slushie on this one nit. It's ok for someone to take the opposite side of the conspiracy theorists, imo. Try not to say too much myself, though you must admit, some of the thoughts are really out there. It's just not worth getting excited about.

Not sure if this is the best example, so bear with me. A recent innocuous, and completely innocent couple of words from Cael had this community guessing that; 1) Nolf was going 165 to wrestle IMar, 2) IMar was going 174 to wrestle Hall, 3) Cassar was going 197 in his first match of the year, 4) Cortez was somehow returning at 133, 5) and many, many others...yet what it turned out to be was "black and pink" singlets. Heck, it was a 5-page thread .

So there it is...in the absence of facts, people will fill the void with their own logical or illogical thoughts, some presenting them as fact...even when it's the furthest thing from fact. Don't get this point wrong, the discussions can be awesome...and fun...till they reach the heights of conspiracy theory gone awry. Then they become polarizing, and bring out the worst in folks.

I don't believe at all, not one iota, that many kids or many coaches duck competition to protect seeding. HIPAA law, and to a lesser degree FERPA, provide that protection, and prevent coaches from talking publicly. To me, not wrestling has the opposite impact, as it keeps the wrestlers from being sharp heading into tournament time...so there's a downside.

I also don't believe the NCAA or the B1G will change their criteria for tournament seeding. If one looks at it objectively, it really is pretty good, and when coaches disagree, they can duke it out at the coaches meeting. And even then, the wrestlers will resolve their placement in the B1G or NCAA hierarchy on the mat...where it should be, right?

 

[El-Jefe]

Most criminal cases that go to trial are in fact based on circumstantial evidence. If there is direct evidence like video they don't go to trial. Those cases are usually plea bargained.

Anyone prosecutor who takes this flimsy a case to court, doing zero pre-work at all, gets thrown out by the judge and is lucky to not get sanctioned.

Folks have proven nothing other than their ability to be outraged.

 

[Flying_Tiger]

These are not criminal cases, even though some are acting like they are.

Perception is not always reality outside your own head.

Did anyone notice that Dudley got beaten badly on Friday? Ever think maybe something was going on with him that called for taking Sunday off?

Was something going on with Brooks that called for him to wrestle only the second of 2 tough matches this weekend?

I don't know, and neither do the people crying "duck".

Calling stalling, gassing, lung breaks, what have you, is not the same as questioning a head coach's ethics. The latter carries more gravity and, therefore, should not be thrown around without some actual first-hand knowledge.

Still waiting to see the data supporting a claim that the sport is being "hurt" by wrestlers taking breaks before rolling into the postseason...I hope fans still find the inner strength to overcome their outrage over such crimes and watch the championship tournaments.

Right this isn't a criminal case, just some some wrestling fans posting on forum, so you are actually making my point here. There wouldn't be much discussion about anything if we had to wait to get to your idealistic standards. Maybe it's time to get outside your own head?

 

[Allensville Amos]

The Brooks Jackson match up was the only bout in the entire Iowa Indiana dual that had two ranked wrestlers. The only marquee match. They had split at Midlands and this was to be the rubber match. Brooks being pulled absolutely affected the watchability of the dual.

 

[NittanyLion84]

All of you disputing the validity of individual cases are missing the forest for the trees.

That this is a problem for the sport seems painfully obvious.

The question is what can be done about it. I do like James Whitter's idea about seeding criteria for starters, but there's got to be more that can be done to disincentivize this type of behavior.

This is the key, what can be done about it. It is impossible to determine motives of the coaches. I believe, like the NFL, for seeding purposes, you ding wrestlers for missed matches. It is impossible, with 2 minutes left in an NFL game to determine if a guy is faking an injury to stop the clock, so the NFL automatically charges the team with a timeout. Same here, you miss matches, for whatever reason, it will negatively impact your seed.

 

[purescurve]

I'm with slushie on this one nit. It's ok for someone to take the opposite side of the conspiracy theorists, imo. Try not to say too much myself, though you must admit, some of the thoughts are really out there. It's just not worth getting excited about.

Not sure if this is the best example, so bear with me. A recent innocuous, and completely innocent couple of words from Cael had this community guessing that; 1) Nolf was going 165 to wrestle IMar, 2) IMar was going 174 to wrestle Hall, 3) Cassar was going 197 in his first match of the year, 4) Cortez was somehow returning at 133, 5) and many, many others...yet what it turned out to be was "black and pink" singlets. Heck, it was a 5-page thread .

So there it is...in the absence of facts, people will fill the void with their own logical or illogical thoughts, some presenting them as fact...even when it's the furthest thing from fact.

There's an aspect or two that could be unsavory...but the chances are real near "0" that any of that happened