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the apocalypse is upon on us (check your gardens for locust)...MAJOR changes coming?

This is just an educated guess but an NHL/NBA arena would only schedule an event in advance during the playoff time window if it was guaranteed a sellout, especially if you were requesting a weekend date. I don't think the NCAA could make that guarantee.
 
I don't know enough about the set-up of most of these sports, but if they're similar, it's going to be difficult for NCAA to give this to wrestling and not the other sports.
Bowling
Cross Country (maybe)
Fencing
Golf
Gymnastics
Rifle
Rowing
Skiing
Swimming and Diving
Tennis
Track and Field, Indoor
Track and Field, Outdoor
Bowling? I think I would prefer to grow lettuce.
 
...I am fine with the present setup and one NCAA Championship Tournament where both individual and team champions are determined...
...if anything, this sounds like a 5-10 year attempt to "grow" a dual team tournament to add more $$$$s to the NCAA coffers...
... the present Championship is a huge success and an increasing TV success ... it does NOT need any additional Championship...
...but thas jes my opinion...

I'm with you. They're gonna screw up what's probably already the best format we can hope for.

Dual meets serve their purpose. For most schools, save tOSU, they're putting their best lineup out there day in and day out.

The current national tournament draws so well precisely because it's opposite the basketball tournament. Once the powers that be realize wrestling is a niche sport whose fans are mostly former wrestlers or families/friends of former wrestlers, and that there aren't enough casual fans to be gained to make a meaningful difference regardless of format, the better off we'll all be.

I can say as big a fan of wrestling I am, moving the national tournament to late April would certainly cut down on my ability to dedicate 3 full days to watching with spring in full swing in the northeast and all the work to be done outside. Leave it right where it is so I can watch my tournament in peace!

I'm willing to give up the Southern Scuffle for a Virginia Duals format in early January, which would be just as fun as far as I'm concerned.
 
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. . . I can say as big a fan of wrestling I am, moving the national tournament to late April would certainly cut down on my ability to dedicate 3 full days to watching with spring in full swing in the northeast and all the work to be done outside. Leave it right where it is so I can watch my tournament in peace! . . .

I'm in a similar personal dilemma if the tournament gets pushed back. It's already a tough time of year for me in March . . . if it goes any later than it already is, I'm screwed. Unless they want to do it in June.

Besides that, I really love the current format, and I like routine. I'm kind of weird, but each change in season (fall to winter to spring) brings a certain level of excitement for me based on previously established routines and memorable experiences related to those routines . . . which all have certain environmental cues (daylength, temperature, tree foliage condition) linked to them. I'd be out-of-sorts without the traditional Nov and Dec schedule, and without the 3rd week in March being the climax. It would be like pushing opening day of MLB back to May 1, and then having the World Series in late November or early December. And then after that, trying to get excited for 6 weeks of winter homerun derbies to identify an alternative team champion in another aspect of the sport. And then spending the whole offseason fighting with other fan bases about which championship (World Series or HR Derby) is a better indicator of the best baseball team.

No thanks. I like what we have, and I love the routine.

And with yesterday's break in humidity and the leaves turning here in New England, a sudden thirst for pumpkin beers and bad horror movies came over me . . . Halloween season is on the doorstep. ;)
 
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Very interesting read. Must chew on this a bit before any comments...
Ok, my chewing is done. After talking with several important folks, it's my considerate opinion that this idea, from the coaches standpoint, will align exactly the same way the Dual Championship Series, and all the other duals-need-to-be-more-important positions. For example, Jammies on one side, Cael and Tom Brands on the other.

It's been discussed ad nauseam already, though I believe this is a LONG way from getting any traction.
 
This is just an educated guess but an NHL/NBA arena would only schedule an event in advance during the playoff time window if it was guaranteed a sellout, especially if you were requesting a weekend date. I don't think the NCAA could make that guarantee.

Why wouldn't the NCAA guarantee a sellout. It's been sold out for many years in a row.
 
Ok, my chewing is done. After talking with several important folks, it's my considerate opinion that this idea, from the coaches standpoint, will align exactly the same way the Dual Championship Series, and all the other duals-need-to-be-more-important positions. For example, Jammies on one side, Cael and Tom Brands on the other.

It's been discussed ad nauseam already, though I believe this is a LONG way from getting any traction.

Agreed, and IMHO a major sticking point is the NCAA sanctioning National Duals as an NCAA championship. I don't see them doing that and without that National Duals is just another tournament that ESPN will not be interested in televising.
 
Why wouldn't the NCAA guarantee a sellout. It's been sold out for many years in a row.
Because unless I totally misread the discussion, the tournament that would take place under this rumored plan in April/May, during NHL/NBA playoff season, would be the dual tournament and under this format, where the attendance is hardly guaranteed. If arenas are going to risk putting a team out, they're going to push the entire risk that the arena won't be filled onto the NCAA. I doubt NCAA would feel it could take that financial risk.
 
I don't know enough about the set-up of most of these sports, but if they're similar, it's going to be difficult for NCAA to give this to wrestling and not the other sports.
Bowling 0, it's a non-championship sport, with only D3 participation
Cross Country (maybe) 343
Fencing 21
Golf 298
Gymnastics 15
Rifle 17
Rowing Non-championship sport, 28 D1 Teams participate
Skiing 11
Swimming and Diving 132
Tennis 258
Track and Field, Indoor 257
Track and Field, Outdoor 279
I think wrestling is a unique blend of individual and team focus. I don't see a real nice apples to apples comparison with any other sport, to be honest. For participation, I've typed the number of D1 NCAA Teams next to the sports above, 2016 data, and Men only.
 
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Because unless I totally misread the discussion, the tournament that would take place under this rumored plan in April/May, during NHL/NBA playoff season, would be the dual tournament and under this format, where the attendance is hardly guaranteed. If arenas are going to risk putting a team out, they're going to push the entire risk that the arena won't be filled onto the NCAA. I doubt NCAA would feel it could take that financial risk.
The last two words are more significant than most know. The NCAA pays for travel to and from the championship venue. Air travel is provided if the distance is greater than 400 miles.

Point is, if this becomes a sanctioned NCAA Dual Championship, it becomes "about the money", no different than any other NCAA Championship. It better be feasible from a logistics standpoint, but also must make enough money to cover ALL the costs.
 
True enough about the individual tournament, but that's not the tan ribbon commission's proposal.

Neither is having the dual tournament in a major arena. It would be on the campus of the highest seeded team after the first round, or did I misread that?
 
The last two words are more significant than most know. The NCAA pays for travel to and from the championship venue. Air travel is provided if the distance is greater than 400 miles.

Point is, if this becomes a sanctioned NCAA Dual Championship, it becomes "about the money", no different than any other NCAA Championship. It better be feasible from a logistics standpoint, but also must make enough money to cover ALL the costs.
And that's no small part of the financial problem with the tan ribbon proposal.

Most schools that would participate in natty duals are not close to a major airport. Travel to/from secondary airports is much more costly and typically much longer as well. Or involves a costly charter flight. Or involves a (cough cough) long bus ride to/from a bigger airport.

For the individual tournament, who does the NCAA cover travel costs for? The qualifiers + coaches + trainers? Any other team members? Asking partly to learn, and partly because the final 8 teams will insist on bringing many backups to natty duals in case of injury. (NCAA should resist this -- teams will rest starters as soon as a match is clinched -- but they won't see thru that.)
 
Because unless I totally misread the discussion, the tournament that would take place under this rumored plan in April/May, during NHL/NBA playoff season, would be the dual tournament and under this format, where the attendance is hardly guaranteed. If arenas are going to risk putting a team out, they're going to push the entire risk that the arena won't be filled onto the NCAA. I doubt NCAA would feel it could take that financial risk.

In the article the proposal has the current NCAA championship remaining in March. Quotes from the article below.

But this set of recommendations would leave the NCAA Championships in its current place on the calendar.

According to Fallis, the proposed Division I model looks like this:

  • Official practices would begin on or around Nov. 10.
  • Competition would kick off during the semester break.
  • The first half of the season would feature a mixture of duals and individual tournaments leading up to March’s conference tournaments and the NCAA Championships.
  • The post-NCAA Championships portion of the season would only consist of duals.
  • The season would culminate with a two-weekend, 16-team dual tournament held on college campuses.
  • The bracket would be filled by conference dual champions and at-large selections.
  • The top eight seeds would each host dual meets on the dual tournament’s first weekend.
  • The top remaining seed after the first weekend would play host to an eight-team championship bracket the following weekend.
 
And that's no small part of the financial problem with the tan ribbon proposal.

Most schools that would participate in natty duals are not close to a major airport. Travel to/from secondary airports is much more costly and typically much longer as well. Or involves a costly charter flight. Or involves a (cough cough) long bus ride to/from a bigger airport.

For the individual tournament, who does the NCAA cover travel costs for? The qualifiers + coaches + trainers? Any other team members? Asking partly to learn, and partly because the final 8 teams will insist on bringing many backups to natty duals in case of injury. (NCAA should resist this -- teams will rest starters as soon as a match is clinched -- but they won't see thru that.)
Will respond later...heading to the game now.

WE ARE!!
 
you have to be careful of what you are wishing for vs. reality. From a tv perspective, how many of those other college championships are on tv? Soccer is pretty big and has a pretty cool national championship tournament (it's pretty open to all schools) and the best of my recollection the the semi-final and finals will draw a crowd but not the size of a normal football game. I'm not certain it is even on TV... it is not from a 'big event' perspective.
I don't think wrestling is going to attract the fans necessary to make a lot of this work. I say grow your base now, then decide how you can steer forward. By that I mean, make the duals mean something now by treating them that way. Win the dual for your institution. Grow the sport at the youth and high school levels. Field full JV teams, etc.
But.. I'm open to what the experts have to say. I do value Cael's opinion as he has had success at all levels and has the best interest of the sport (vs. $$)
 
And that's no small part of the financial problem with the tan ribbon proposal.

Most schools that would participate in natty duals are not close to a major airport. Travel to/from secondary airports is much more costly and typically much longer as well. Or involves a costly charter flight. Or involves a (cough cough) long bus ride to/from a bigger airport.

For the individual tournament, who does the NCAA cover travel costs for? The qualifiers + coaches + trainers? Any other team members? Asking partly to learn, and partly because the final 8 teams will insist on bringing many backups to natty duals in case of injury. (NCAA should resist this -- teams will rest starters as soon as a match is clinched -- but they won't see thru that.)
The policy states "student-athletes, teams, officials and support personnel" for all 90 or so of the D1 Championships.
 
The policy states "student-athletes, teams, officials and support personnel" for all 90 or so of the D1 Championships.
Thanks. That's great to allow the entire team to be a part of a championship event. For a natty duals, they need to tighten up the participation criteria -- say, each team may designate max 15 eligible wrestlers for the entire event prior to weigh-ins. (Fewer may be better, just had to start somewhere.)
 
Just to clarify, my point about avoiding the NBA/NHL post-season was specifically in response to those wanting the individual tournament after the dual tournament which, in this case with a one semester sport, would push it to late April. Even with a strong track record of selling tickets, I'm pretty sure the deals professional NBA/NHL teams have with their arenas preclude them from scheduling multi-day, all-day events during the play-off season, leaving the arena unavailable to host potential playoff games.

The current proposal doesn't mess with that, which is good and as mentioned, the duals would be on campus so no worries there. The basketball tie-in on twitter was in response to those who want to move the individual tournament away from NCAA basketball. NCAA Wrestling got on television and has grown to what it is largely because ESPN didn't have rights to NCAA basketball and there wasn't much else to show that weekend. If we move earlier to the college basketball regular season, wrestling would likely see less coverage on less prime channels (look at the ratings for wrestling broadcasts versus the average regular season college basketball game). If we go later, we quickly get into NHL/NBA playoffs which ESPN has some rights to which could cause the same issue. As I understand it, ESPN will retain the rights to wrestling under a bigger deal for many NCAA championships so we need to be careful where it moves to or we could end up with less coverage. There could be a better solution, but simply moving away from the opening weekend of college hoops isn't a guaranteed winner.

Like I said, this proposal doesn't mess with the date of the individual tournament but, as usual, it has spawned a lot of side discussions about other potential approaches which confuses the issue.
 
I think wrestling is a unique blend of individual and team focus. I don't see a real nice apples to apples comparison with any other sport, to be honest. For participation, I've typed the number of D1 NCAA Teams next to the sports above, 2016 data, and Men only.
I'm just going to use track as an example.
To reach the championship meet, you have to meet certain qualifying standards during the regular season. This leaves a major part of the team behind for the championships, in most cases.
The elite individuals from a team compete at the final championship. Each event winner is awarded a medal, the top 8 are declared first team all-Americans, the second 8 are second team all-Americans.
Team team points are awarded differently, depending upon the size of the meet.
At the championship, a team champion is declared, based on the performance of the few individuals that qualified, and just a few individuals can win the championship. In 2016, Florida's men won with 62 points. That's like having just over 6 champions, out of 21 events.

To me, they are pretty similar. So, if I'm the track and field guys, and I see this wrestling proposal, why am I not thinking about a way to have a head to head championship between, say, the top two teams from the championship. It would be a way to showcase what might actually be pretty good events for the top teams and it would show team depth.
 
I'm just going to use track as an example.
To reach the championship meet, you have to meet certain qualifying standards during the regular season. This leaves a major part of the team behind for the championships, in most cases.
The elite individuals from a team compete at the final championship. Each event winner is awarded a medal, the top 8 are declared first team all-Americans, the second 8 are second team all-Americans.
Team team points are awarded differently, depending upon the size of the meet.
At the championship, a team champion is declared, based on the performance of the few individuals that qualified, and just a few individuals can win the championship. In 2016, Florida's men won with 62 points. That's like having just over 6 champions, out of 21 events.

To me, they are pretty similar. So, if I'm the track and field guys, and I see this wrestling proposal, why am I not thinking about a way to have a head to head championship between, say, the top two teams from the championship. It would be a way to showcase what might actually be pretty good events for the top teams and it would show team depth.
In short, it's still about $$$, and given the size of a track team, a second championship isn't feasible.

That aside, T&F does not have dual meet-like events where it's mano-a-mano, and one team beats one other team. At 257 or so (Men's) teams, I can't make sense of how that would work. In Wrestling, it makes sense, at least in principle.

Regardless, it's still about money...
 
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First - ESPN retains the rights to broadcast NCAA championship events (noted exception is D1 basketball, the CFP is on ESPN but a different animal and deal) so there is no additional money coming wrestling's way. No additional NCAA money from TV.
So the money needed to pay for this event is attendance and memorabilia sales. I would guess if done with across the board (planning and execution) absolute perfection a hundred thou profit may be doable. Perfection would be limiting the possible host sites to Iowa and maybe Penn State (only 2 places where attendance of around14,000 is possible).
EconomicallyI doubt very much the NCAA ever sees a reason to do this.

Second. Just my opinion, but compacting the sport into a single semester reduces the sport's footprint. Never a great idea.

Third. The part of the wrestling leadership that has become so emotionally connected to a dual championship needs to redirect their collective energy into getting some of our other events on television.
 
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When is Cael going to comment so the B&W gang knows what to think?
 
In short, it's still about $$$, and given the size of a track team, a second championship isn't feasible.

That aside, T&F does not have dual meet-like events where it's mano-a-mano, and one team beats one other team. At 257 or so (Men's) teams, I can't make sense of how that would work. In Wrestling, it makes sense, at least in principle.

Regardless, it's still about money...
How true.. we should be careful what we wish for. Someone else mentioned how the sport may change... Commercialism on TV has not been a good thing. Look how the NFL has changed and now college...
 
When is Cael going to comment so the B&W gang knows what to think?
We have pretty much articulated our stance.
I think it is dumber than shyt so I can understand if you support it.
Nothing personal, just saying. By the way, got any Gooffer championship tees you can hook me up with?
 
Tom Ryan wants to preach about making duals matter when he's the first coach to pull a kid from a seed-determining toss-up in a dual.
As a fan, it's crappy, no doubt. I'd like to see the best a team has to offer, each dual. Not to the point of us or opposing teams wrestling injured guys, mind you, just all the eligible starters.

For discussion sake, I'll take an opposing view...
In the current environment, I can understand the "keep the eye on the prize" thinking. Save your guys for the B1G's and the National Tournament. When the "environment" changes, the thinking will change, but for now, TR has done, and likely will continue to do, what he thinks is in the best interest of his wrestlers...so they can, in his opinion, perform their best on the biggest stages.

Stinks for the fans, as I said, though I can understand it.
 
When is Cael going to comment so the B&W gang knows what to think?

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You're an attorney in Austin, right? Maybe you could help Jammen with his suit vs. Flo for infringing on his intellectual property, obfuscation with numbers.
That has to be the first time that Jammenz and intellectual were used in the same sentence, kind of an oxymoron.;)
 
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As a fan, it's crappy, no doubt. I'd like to see the best a team has to offer, each dual. Not to the point of us or opposing teams wrestling injured guys, mind you, just all the eligible starters.

For discussion sake, I'll take an opposing view...
In the current environment, I can understand the "keep the eye on the prize" thinking. Save your guys for the B1G's and the National Tournament. When the "environment" changes, the thinking will change, but for now, TR has done, and likely will continue to do, what he thinks is in the best interest of his wrestlers...so they can, in his opinion, perform their best on the biggest stages.

Stinks for the fans, as I said, though I can understand it.
Mine is not an opposing view, but rather a point of contention with Coach Ryan's persistent mantra of "we need to make duals matter" and "capturing causal fans".

If you want to capture the causal fan, then every time you have the opportunity to participate in THE EVENT you need to put your best foot forward. You can not be the host to THE EVENT and put only 3/4 of your best team on display and then walk around wondering why fewer people show up the next time. You are presented only so many opportunities to make an impact. Same thing with make duals matter mantra. Before you can expect a certain amount of excitement for a dual tournament you need to make duals exciting. Again, when you have the dual of the year in your arena and there is enough excitement to create an attendance record and you put 3/4 of your best forward you have missed another opportunity.

Ryan strikes me as the guy who fails to grasp the obvious opportunities to advance his agenda and fails to understand how or why. So without understanding the failure on his part he desperately seeks force feed solutions. Again, without understanding the ramifications.
 
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You're an attorney in Austin, right? Maybe you could help Jammen with his suit vs. Flo for infringing on his intellectual property, obfuscation with numbers.
Given his name, Chickenman probably cannot take on Jammen as a second client. ;)

 
Mine is not an opposing view, but rather a point of contention with Coach Ryan's persistent mantra of "we need to make duals matter" and "capturing causal fans".

If you want to capture the causal fan, then every time you have the opportunity to participate in THE EVENT you need to put your best foot forward. You can not be the host to THE EVENT and put only 3/4 of your best team on display and then walk around wondering why fewer people show up the next time. You are presented only so many opportunities to make an impact. Same thing with make duals matter mantra. Before you can expect a certain amount of excitement for a dual tournament you need to make duals exciting. Again, when you have the dual of the year in your arena and there is enough excitement to create an attendance record and you put 3/4 of your best forward you have missed another opportunity.

Ryan strikes me as the guy who fails to grasp the obvious opportunities to advance his agenda and fails to understand how or why. So without understanding the failure on his part he desperately seeks force feed solutions. Again, without understanding the ramifications.
Not sure I understand.

The PSU vs tOSU is one data-point, and they were missing 2 starters, Jake Ryan and Bo Jordan. Both missed significant time during the season, and since I don't know the extent of their injuries, it's not for me to judge. I do know that Jake missed their last 5 duals, and flamed out at B1G's, so the Buckeyes did not have a 157 rep at NCAA's. Bo's foot issues were frequent news, but again, who am I to judge.

I went to the dual, and yes, I was disappointed. But Snyder wrestled after missing the Iowa Dual the previous weekend, and Bucky didn't forfeit a single bout. It's plausible that was the best they had to offer on that date.

What do you (and others) think about Kyle Snyder missing duals to wrestle for the USA during the season? I personally feel it's ok.
 
Snyder's freshman year I was convinced that he would not stay at tOSU for 4 years due to his well known freestyle aspirations. But he has set a new standard by competing at both styles in the same season with incredible success. I can't imagine that many others will attempt to do the same but he has certainly shown that it is possible.
 
Snyder's freshman year I was convinced that he would not stay at tOSU for 4 years due to his well known freestyle aspirations. But he has set a new standard by competing at both styles in the same season with incredible success. I can't imagine that many others will attempt to do the same but he has certainly shown that it is possible.
many others are ruled out as they are not qualified to do both! Hats off to Snyder! I also thought he would only be there for 2 years. He likes those titles!
 
Not sure I understand.

The PSU vs tOSU is one data-point, and they were missing 2 starters, Jake Ryan and Bo Jordan. Both missed significant time during the season, and since I don't know the extent of their injuries, it's not for me to judge. I do know that Jake missed their last 5 duals, and flamed out at B1G's, so the Buckeyes did not have a 157 rep at NCAA's. Bo's foot issues were frequent news, but again, who am I to judge.

I went to the dual, and yes, I was disappointed. But Snyder wrestled after missing the Iowa Dual the previous weekend, and Bucky didn't forfeit a single bout. It's plausible that was the best they had to offer on that date.

What do you (and others) think about Kyle Snyder missing duals to wrestle for the USA during the season? I personally feel it's ok.
I have no problem with what Snyder has done. I simply smile at his achievements, tip my cap to those achievements and while hatless shake my head in astonishment.

The OSU PSU match is single data point, but there are only so many opportunities. It isn't like Ohio State historically participates in home matches attracting 15,000 fans, and on that rare occasion you better step up. The 15,000 came to see the best. They did - Penn State put on quite a show. If Bo was capable of wrestling a few days later, he was capable. Hall and BoJo was a match those people showed up to see. Jason was going to shred whoever OSU sent out, but if Jake was the best the Buckeyes had.

Ryan also has a strong enough track record of holding kids out of matches that his motivation for the holdout is generally questioned. Similar to Koll. They both have in the past held kids out of closely contested duals. I do not have the exact matches for either, so I can not offer the exact data point. However, both are drivers of the make duals matter so we need to change everything bus, and I believe before we go down a long road of change maybe they should step up and acknowledge duals already matter, as much as in season basketball games, or baseball games, or whatever NCAA sport. They play a part in seasonal ranking and conference tournament and NCAA tournament seeding. They also market the sport.
 
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I have no problem with what Snyder has done. I simply smile at his achievements, tip my cap to those achievements and while hatless shake my head in astonishment.

The OSU PSU match is single data point, but there are only so many opportunities. It isn't like Ohio State historically participates in home matches attracting 15,000 fans, and on that rare occasion you better step up. The 15,000 came to see the best. They did - Penn State put on quite a show. If Bo was capable of wrestling a few days later, he was capable. Hall and BoJo was a match those people showed up to see. Jason was going to shred whoever OSU sent out, but if Jake was the best the Buckeyes had.

Ryan also has a strong enough track record of holding kids out of matches that his motivation for the holdout is generally questioned. Similar to Koll. They both have in the past held kids out of closely contested duals. I do not have the exact matches for either, so I can not offer the exact data point. However, both are drivers of the make duals matter so we need to change everything bus, and I believe before we go down a long road of change maybe they should step up and acknowledge duals already matter, as much as in season basketball games, or baseball games, or whatever NCAA sport. They play a part in seasonal ranking and conference tournament and NCAA tournament seeding. They also market the sport.
I guess we'll have to disagree. Tom Ryan takes a beating here, and to a neutral fan, a lot of it is not warranted. Sort of like a feeding frenzy.

To be honest, after reading everything about the situation for the two guys noted, I certainly am not ready to make the judgmental call that one or both could have gone. And admittedly, I was disappointed.

Yes, there's been cases when it appeared more egregious, if memory serves correctly. Like you, I can't remember them, though to my knowledge the Buckeyes didn't forfeit. That would be far worse, no?
 
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