To the Skellar-Herlocher Angry Mob

[manatree]

Where does it say there were negotiations? You know, this is the Herlochers' story. They could have told it, rather than depend on you to attempt to gloss it for them.

Where does it say they attempted to negotiate the lease? (Setting aside for the moment that suggesting a lease at $x per month for y months is "offering a lease." And the Herlocher says they did not do that.) Right?

The Herlocher's did say it:

The Herlochers said on Monday that they learned the Skeller and Spats had been renting "well below market rates" and had been operating without a lease since 2011.

"Attempts to resolve the issue were unsuccessful," the Herlochers said. "Our offer to purchase the businesses were also turned down."​

Despite what you believe, "suggesting a lease at $x per month for y months" is not offering a lease. That is discussing/negotiating a new lease. Offering a lease is when you write up the actual lease document and offer it to someone for them to sign.

If the two parties weren't able to agree during the discussions, no time would be wasted drafting a lease to offer.

For example, every year my landlord's agent sends me a letter of inquiry stating what the new rent will be and asking me if I am interested in signing a new lease. Our discussing/negotiating phase is a bit one sided. This letter is not a lease offer. When I inform the agency that I do want to sign a lease, they then draft a lease and offer it to me to sign. If I were to tell the agency I am not interested, no lease is offered, and they start looking for another tenant.

The Herlocher's have been quoted on the record that "Attempts to resolve the issue were unsuccessful" and "the Gastingers were not offered a new lease." Just because the prevailing winds of angst say that the Herlocher's are money grubbing grinches stealing Whoville's oldest dive bar does not make those two statements conflicting.

 

[psuro]

Angry Mob

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

The Herlocher's did say it:

The Herlochers said on Monday that they learned the Skeller and Spats had been renting "well below market rates" and had been operating without a lease since 2011.

"Attempts to resolve the issue were unsuccessful," the Herlochers said. "Our offer to purchase the businesses were also turned down."​

Despite what you believe, "suggesting a lease at $x per month for y months" is not offering a lease. That is discussing/negotiating a new lease. Offering a lease is when you write up the actual lease document and offer it to someone for them to sign.

If the two parties weren't able to agree during the discussions, no time would be wasted drafting a lease to offer.

For example, every year my landlord's agent sends me a letter of inquiry stating what the new rent will be and asking me if I am interested in signing a new lease. Our discussing/negotiating phase is a bit one sided. This letter is not a lease offer. When I inform the agency that I do want to sign a lease, they then draft a lease and offer it to me to sign. If I were to tell the agency I am not interested, no lease is offered, and they start looking for another tenant.

The Herlocher's have been quoted on the record that "Attempts to resolve the issue were unsuccessful" and "the Gastingers were not offered a new lease." Just because the prevailing winds of angst say that the Herlocher's are money grubbing grinches stealing Whoville's oldest dive bar does not make those two statements conflicting.

I think they 'attempted to resolve the issue' by making an offer on the business/liquor license - not by negotiating or offering to negotiate a new lease with the existing tenants. And that's fine - just say that's what you did.

 

[LafayetteBear]

This is accurate and has been my primary point all along. I do not know the rent Herlochers were asking. Neither does the Angry mob, but that hasn't stopped the mob from "knowing" that the Herlochers are bad people based on the press release from the Gastigers.

Regarding your last sentence, there are dozens of other bars selling lots of beer while operating under market negotiated leases.

As I read your various posts defending the Herlochers, castigating the Gastigers, and referring to posters here as the "Angry mob," I am inclined to wonder what your association is with the Herlochers. It appears to be a close one, or you would presumably not be upset enough to be deriding members of this Board over their views on the situation.

BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, I have been to the Skeller, loved the place despite its rather rundown condition, but have no relationship whatsoever with any of the parties to this saga.

 

[demlion]

The Herlocher's did say it:

The Herlochers said on Monday that they learned the Skeller and Spats had been renting "well below market rates" and had been operating without a lease since 2011.

"Attempts to resolve the issue were unsuccessful," the Herlochers said. "Our offer to purchase the businesses were also turned down."​

Despite what you believe, "suggesting a lease at $x per month for y months" is not offering a lease. That is discussing/negotiating a new lease. Offering a lease is when you write up the actual lease document and offer it to someone for them to sign.

If the two parties weren't able to agree during the discussions, no time would be wasted drafting a lease to offer.

For example, every year my landlord's agent sends me a letter of inquiry stating what the new rent will be and asking me if I am interested in signing a new lease. Our discussing/negotiating phase is a bit one sided. This letter is not a lease offer. When I inform the agency that I do want to sign a lease, they then draft a lease and offer it to me to sign. If I were to tell the agency I am not interested, no lease is offered, and they start looking for another tenant.

The Herlocher's have been quoted on the record that "Attempts to resolve the issue were unsuccessful" and "the Gastingers were not offered a new lease." Just because the prevailing winds of angst say that the Herlocher's are money grubbing grinches stealing Whoville's oldest dive bar does not make those two statements conflicting.

Herlockers can explain that if that is the explanation. The issue referred to in the second sentence would appear to be the one in the sentence before--that there was no lease at all. They never offered a lease. They also don't say that the gastigers' lack of any lease made getting rid of them easier. It is routinely done in business and other negotiations that you say your price per month or year and hear the guy out. Until it is reduced to writing and both parties have signed it, it is not a lease. But you are negotiating terms over a new lease. He could say "we would have been happy to offer them a lease." He said the opposite.

In any event, the Herlochers are the ones who volunteered to explain this. Why are you out here explaining it for them?

 

[psuro]

This thread reminds me how desperately we need a verbal.

 

[demlion]

So the fact that somebody bought a prime piece of State College real estate most likely for a huge sum of money and is going to take that real estate and try to maximize the revenue streams by upgrading the bar, restaurant and apartments (which everybody agrees were in very poor shape and in need of some upgrades) is or is not acceptable?

Or is the issue that they tried to play the good guy and 'blame' the owner of the Skellar for it being shut down the bad thing? So the better thing would have been to buy the building and then put out an announcement that it was purchased and that the existing tenants leases are not being renewed and the facilities will be upgraded and put back in service.

Perfectly acceptable. Blowing smoke up everyone's ass? Not so much.

 

[manatree]

I think they 'attempted to resolve the issue' by making an offer on the business/liquor license - not by negotiating or offering to negotiate a new lease with the existing tenants. And that's fine - just say that's what you did.

So the Herlocher's should say that they did what you think they did no matter what they actually did do?

For the record, I do not know either party, nor do I knowingly have any financial interest in either party. I do find the mustard to be a tasty mustard, but not in my top five mustards. I used to frequent the Skeller, even though it was not in my top five basement dive bars in State College. To me, it's one redeeming factor was Harry, and sadly, he passed on. However, I would be willing to bet my one healthy nut that the truth lies somewhere in between the two parties, not with one or the other.

 

[demlion]

So the Herlocher's should say that they did what you think they did no matter what they actually did do?

For the record, I do not know either party, nor do I knowingly have any financial interest in either party. I do find the mustard to be a tasty mustard, but not in my top five mustards. I used to frequent the Skeller, even though it was not in my top five basement dive bars in State College. To me, it's one redeeming factor was Harry, and sadly, he passed on. However, I would be willing to bet my one healthy nut that the truth lies somewhere in between the two parties, not with one or the other.

They should just tell the whole truth, or STFU.

 

[PeetzPoolBoy]

This thread reminds me how desperately we need a verbal.

Even Delaney said he wouldn't "re-litigate" OSU not getting into the CF Playoffs. We're starting to make him look tolerant.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

So the Herlocher's should say that they did what you think they did no matter what they actually did do?

For the record, I do not know either party, nor do I knowingly have any financial interest in either party. I do find the mustard to be a tasty mustard, but not in my top five mustards. I used to frequent the Skeller, even though it was not in my top five basement dive bars in State College. To me, it's one redeeming factor was Harry, and sadly, he passed on. However, I would be willing to bet my one healthy nut that the truth lies somewhere in between the two parties, not with one or the other.

No - they should say whatever it is they did, instead of putting out two contradictory statements (the first designed to appease the 'angry mob' even if it was only half-true and full of corporate-speak for 'we're booting out current tenants whether you like it or not.'). I don't think they made any serious attempt to keep The Skellar 'as is' or 'sort of as is' or it's current tenants and tried to make it seem like they did because they didn't want to be the bad guys. Now they're walking their statements back to save face. Just say what you did - if people don't like it, at least you were honest.

 

[PSU2UNC]

Well, the only people who like "the skellar as it was" are people that don't live in central PA and don't spend any money in the skellar.
If the business was flourishing, they could afford market rent like every other successful bar currently operating. Either the Gastigers are just stupid and irrational or the business couldn't sustain itself without charity.

That's not true. I know a number of people who still live in State College who go to the Skellar all the time, and they are all pissed off about this.

 

[4rosco]

They should just tell the whole truth, or STFU.

How about both parties tell the whole truth on the issue.

You seem to already have your mind made up without knowing all the facts because you are upset that the skeller is closing.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

How about both parties tell the whole truth on the issue.

This is a good idea.

 

[demlion]

How about both parties tell the whole truth on the issue.

You seem to already have your mind made up without knowing all the facts because you are upset that the skeller is closing.

I sure would not object to that. But it is obvious that Herlockers blew smoke.

 

[mgkpsu]

First of all, there is no mob and there never was. This is just a part of the "free market" I am always hearing lauded here. If a company I like and have frequented gets attacked or dumped on, I push back. THAT IS PART OF THE FREE MARKET, TOO.

The 850 1 star ratings on Herlocker's FB page yesterday until they shut down the comments? The free market at work. The 6500 people who signed a petition? Free Market. The absolutely brutal reviews on amazon?

1.0 out of 5 starsCan't give less then 1 star, else I would.
ByAmazon Customeron December 4, 2017

If you enjoy destroying local businesses, and loathe history, this may be the mustard for you.

Yeah, that is your same free market at work. You don't get to call it in your favor only when you want to F somebody. It is a 2 way street.

Kind of like trying to destroy a local mustard company over a shit hole dive bar? Isn't it ironic, don'tcha think?

 

[Nitt1300]

I sure would not object to that. But it is obvious that Herlockers blew smoke.

It's not obvious, it's just what you believe- which doesn't make it right-or wrong.

BTW, we're still waiting on the "Freeh material review"

 

[demlion]

Kind of like trying to destroy a local mustard company over a shit hole dive bar? Isn't it ironic, don'tcha think?

The shithole mustard company tried to destroy the bar. Then lied about it. In business your reputation for decency Is a big part of your assets. Too bad they pitched it out the window

 

[demlion]

It's not obvious, it's just what you believe- which doesn't make it right-or wrong.

BTW, we're still waiting on the "Freeh material review"

It is obvious. You just don't believe it.

 

[Nitt1300]

It is obvious. You just don't believe it.

I don't believe it or disbelieve it- nobody has proven anything to my satisfaction either way.

 

[LafayetteBear]

Kind of like trying to destroy a local mustard company over a shit hole dive bar? Isn't it ironic, don'tcha think?

So I'm guessing you are not a Skeller regular.

 

[mgkpsu]

So I'm guessing you are not a Skeller regular.

Never cared for the place, especially after they killed that kid in the alley.

 

[Nitt1300]

So I'm guessing you are not a Skeller regular.

I was, because I love a good shit hole dive bar.

 

[mgkpsu]

The shithole mustard company tried to destroy the bar. Then lied about it. In business your reputation for decency Is a big part of your assets. Too bad they pitched it out the window

So then two wrongs make a right in your world, assuming the new landlords even did something wrong in the first place? Real mature! I don't think enough facts are out there for supporters on either side to declare either was wrong/right, but do people honestly not have more important things about which to get worked up? They had like 84 years to buy the property, and are welcome to try to set up shop elsewhere.

 

[mgkpsu]

I was, because I love a good shit hole dive bar.

I only went to bars to chase tail, and that place was a filthy sausage fiesta 99 times out of 100.

 

[demlion]

So then two wrongs make a right in your world, assuming the new landlords even did something wrong in the first place? Real mature! I don't think enough facts are out there for supporters on either side to declare either was wrong/right, but do people honestly not have more important things about which to get worked up? They had like 84 years to buy the property, and are welcome to try to set up shop elsewhere.

Lots of people won't buy even good products from sleazy companies. Their mustard is okay, but others make better, and if they want to play cutesy PR games with that much tradition on the line, f em.

 

[NelsonMunce]

Lots of strange tangents on this thread.....'free market', 'sh#thole bar' (shows that 'snowflakes' can be multi-generational wusses who don't 'slum it'), historical trust, management skills, blah, blah, blah ....

Sounds like the current owners of the Skellar were getting a sweet deal for a long while, and sounds like the owners are playing hardball. Can't say I blame either of them. I guess there's no locking them in a room to resolve this.

Let the free market work and turn the place into another Subway. In another 10 years, the whole downtown is going to look like one big strip mall anyway. May as well make the SBS into a Barnes and Noble.

 

[Nitt1300]

Lots of strange tangents on this thread.....'free market', 'sh#thole bar' (shows that 'snowflakes' can be multi-generational wusses who don't 'slum it'), historical trust, management skills, blah, blah, blah ....

Sounds like the current owners of the Skellar were getting a sweet deal for a long while, and sounds like the owners are playing hardball. Can't say I blame either of them. I guess there's no locking them in a room to resolve this.

Let the free market work and turn the place into another Subway. In another 10 years, the whole downtown is going to look like one big strip mall anyway. May as well make the SBS into a Barnes and Noble.

downtown hasn't been the same since Greasy Gus's closed

 

[massimoManca II]

Kind of like trying to destroy a local mustard company over a shit hole dive bar? Isn't it ironic, don'tcha think?

#hubrisbreedspoorbusinessdecisions

 

[NittanyChris]

Lots of strange tangents on this thread.....'free market', 'sh#thole bar' (shows that 'snowflakes' can be multi-generational wusses who don't 'slum it'), historical trust, management skills, blah, blah, blah ....

Sounds like the current owners of the Skellar were getting a sweet deal for a long while, and sounds like the owners are playing hardball. Can't say I blame either of them. I guess there's no locking them in a room to resolve this.

Let the free market work and turn the place into another Subway. In another 10 years, the whole downtown is going to look like one big strip mall anyway. May as well make the SBS into a Barnes and Noble.

Maybe the entire town can be comprised of Applebee's, Wal-Mart, McDonald's, CVS.

Screw McClanahan's, The Skeller, The Tavern, and anything that provides character, charm and history.

Maybe a Trump Towers can replace some of the apartment high rises while were at it. Woo hoo.

 

[LafayetteBear]

I only went to bars to chase tail,.

Now there's an honest man. Were beer goggles de rigueur for you and your colleagues?

 

[massimoManca II]

I only went to bars to chase tail, and that place was a filthy sausage fiesta 99 times out of 100.

Haha yeah, sure. When a term such as chase tail is used one can't help stop the imagery of a Members Only jacket and cheap sunglasses from UniMart... not a good fit in the Skeller #camarodriver #zimadrinker

 

[PeetzPoolBoy]

Now there's an honest man. Were beer goggles de rigueur for you and your colleagues?

A normal person never went to the Skellar “looking for tail”. I didn’t frequent the Skellar much, but when I was forced into going there (especially on Saturday evenings), it seemed as if the place was populated with “people from the remote hills”.

I frequently encountered some unsavory folks back by the pool tables who I determined “weren’t students”. I somehow managed to escape unharmed.

It won’t bother me in the least if that place is destroyed and is replaced by a nice Gastropub (PaternoSkellar? ).

Can you imagine the business that place would do if they were able to procure the “statue” and place just inside the door as you entered?

I’m just the idea guy.

 

[AngleseaLion]

They should just tell the whole truth, or STFU.

Shouldn't both sides do that? Why do you assume Herlochers are are lieing?

 

[LafayetteBear]

Shouldn't both sides do that? Why do you assume Herlochers are are lieing?

 

[Victor E. Bell]

Coincidence? I think not.

 

[tboyer]

The Herlochers have every right to maximize their revenue. I'm sure if the Skeller were willing to pay 40k a month in rent and lose money they could stay. So it will be another iron Hill or some other antiseptic chain. This is capitalism.

And so it is also capitalism that fans of the Skeller can have economic revenge on the Herlochers any way that this is possible.

The only thing that's wrong is saying the Herlochers get to maximize profit with no consequences. In these days of social media there are consequences. That's just reality.

The cost of forcing the Skeller to close, in terms of reputation and goodwill, could be quite high. A smart business person, particularly someone in a retail business, would have already factored that in.

You can bet Iron Hill and the chains are paying close attention and will factor this into their offers or their decision to consider this location at all.

 

[demlion]

Shouldn't both sides do that? Why do you assume Herlochers are are lieing?

Because they have issued statements saying they'll keep the Skeller "as you've known it," when they won't; saying that they tried to resolve the issues, then saying they never offered the Gastigers a lease; and trying to think after the fact about something (the tradition) they should have thought about before.

It is not straight up factual lies so much as the ever-shifting story of someone who did not foresee the impact of putting the boots to a place of many happy memories in a town where politicians and other rich swells like them have stomped on quite a few of our traditions in recent years.

And their comeback is, "Jay Paterno vouches for us, and the Gastigers got cheap rent, nobody cares more than us about these traditons, and we're the landowner so we can do what we want."
Ok. So can everyone else. Bad rollout. Hurting their brand locally. Makes people dislike them.

 

[Sharkies]

The only thing that's wrong is saying the Herlochers get to maximize profit with no consequences. In these days of social media there are consequences. That's just reality.

Exactly what I was trying to say.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Haha yeah, sure. When a term such as chase tail is used one can't help stop the imagery of a Members Only jacket and cheap sunglasses from UniMart... not a good fit in the Skeller #camarodriver #zimadrinker