Tom Brands and the Future of the Hawkeyes Program

[dsites52]

There is a high probability that this thread may turn into a dumpster fire, but I saw a flippant mention of it and I want to pose the serious question, Is Cael currently TnT's biggest purveyor of job security. I may not fully believe it is on Tom and Terry, but their lack of success without any measurable success, how long before TnT is given their walking papers? Objectively. Does Dresser get the job with 2 or 3 good years at Iowa State?

 

[Hotshoe]

No it isn't going to turn into a sh$t show. We're on top. Let's act like it. We can discuss without becoming a bunch of di$ks about it.

 

[Str8DBLz]

HAHaHa a dumpster fire....

There is a high probability that this thread may turn into a dumpster fire, but I saw a flippant mention of it and I want to pose the serious question, Is Cael currently TnT's biggest purveyor of job security. I may not fully believe it is on Tom and Terry, but their lack of success without any measurable success, how long before TnT is given their walking papers? Objectively. Does Dresser get the job with 2 or 3 good years at Iowa State?

 

[JohnBasedow]

For your first question, only time will tell. If it does happen at some point then it won’t be because a dual loss. For your 2nd question, Dresser will never coach at Iowa.

 

[jrd23psu]

Tom and Terry are two of the best coaches in the country. I don't think they are going anywhere any time soon.

 

[leroybrown10]

It's silly to fire a great coach just because he isn't a historically great coach. To use an SEC football analogy, there is only one Nick Saban. You fire a coach because he's not Saban and you might end up with Kirby Smart but you might end up with Ed Orgeron. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[dsites52]

For your first question, only time will tell. If it does happen at some point then it won’t be because a dual loss. For your 2nd question, Dresser will never coach at Iowa.

False. Dresser ALREADY has coached at Iowa. Before he started coaching high school he was an assistant under Gable. But I get the point you're trying to make.

 

[ss7]

As soon as Should-Have-Been-Called-Stalling is worth more than an actual takedown, the Hawkeyes under the Brands will be fine.

On a serious note, if you're firing someone, you need a replacement that will be better? Who would Iowa hire that we're sure would be an improvement?

 

[dsites52]

Tom and Terry are two of the best coaches in the country. I don't think they are going anywhere any time soon.

It's silly to fire a great coach just because he isn't a historically great coach. To use an SEC football analogy, there is only one Nick Saban. You fire a coach because he's not Saban and you might end up with Kirby Smart but you might end up with Ed Orgeron. Be careful what you wish for.

Both great points and I get not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but at what point is enough, enough? Iowa is well behind the curve, for a program with such a rich tradition, to say their new measuring stick is to try to compete for 3rd?

 

[aalion]

The TnT boys are top 5 coaches. Unless they completely lose it off the mat (not sure if there temper/bluster matside is real - I assume not - as far as I know they have never had any kind of issues off the mat)... or if the program completely falls off (i.e. below Top 5 would be way off by Iowa standards, or MAYBE if ISU overtakes them, which would most likely be the same thing). They are going to be in the mix for the next few years - challenging for #1 and certainly Top 3 unless injuries get them. Hard to top that.

It is only by Iowa standards that it is even a conversation. PSU coaches pre-Cael would have been considered very successful w TnT's record. Although we would have been frustrated to never win 1...

 

[dunkej01]

TnT is the best solution for that team/program short and long (5yrs).

They are great for the sport of D1 and senior level training.

They are great for content and discussion for fans.

Dresser is not the answer. Just so mind boggling that last Friday they were the greatest thing and SLee is a 4xer and now the sky is following from a single dual meet.

Its fans expectations that need checked. They were so spoiled for so long that now the littlest thing is the biggest thing.

Only logical conclusion, is there is no logic on this subject on the internet.

 

[PANCAKE1]

I also do not feel that T and T are not going any where in the near future, however, I do believe that they still have some work to do with the culture of the program, of coarse this is from the outside looking in view. There is no doubt in my mind that T and T are good coaches, maybe just a little stubborn when it comes to change.

If they do go, I feel that it will be new blood that is hired for the program, not Dresser.

 

[Str8DBLz]

The fans are calling for Jordan Burroughs after the 2020 Olympics

 

[dsites52]

The TnT boys are top 5 coaches. Unless they completely lose it off the mat (not sure if there temper/bluster matside is real - I assume not - as far as I know they have never had any kind of issues off the mat)... or if the program completely falls off (i.e. below Top 5 would be way off by Iowa standards, or MAYBE if ISU overtakes them, which would most likely be the same thing). They are going to be in the mix for the next few years - challenging for #1 and certainly Top 3 unless injuries get them. Hard to top that.

It is only by Iowa standards that it is even a conversation. PSU coaches pre-Cael would have been considered very successful w TnT's record. Although we would have been frustrated to never win 1...

Fair. But think about the shoe being on the other foot. Cael decides he wants to hang it up after this year and then we go 9 straight years and only get as far as runner-up, once. I know we are all spoiled, but I can't imagine I'd wanna settle for, "Well, tough business"

 

[JohnBasedow]

Fair. But think about the shoe being on the other foot. Cael decides he wants to hang it up after this year and then we go 9 straight years and only get as far as runner-up, once. I know we are all spoiled, but I can't imagine I'd wanna settle for, "Well, tough business"

Bingo. I can’t imagine the PSU faithful would be satisfied either after tasting dominance.

 

[Phantom of the Palestra]

I think the Brands are great coaches, That said, looking at what Ohio State has in the pipeline, and the teams that John Smith has put together with almost all homegrown talent, I think it is fair to wonder about their future. Who knows, it could all look different in a month. From the outside it feels like so much is riding on Spencer. Perhaps it is time for a fresh perspective. The last time they hired someone from outside the program it worked out pretty well.

 

[dunkej01]

The fans are calling for Jordan Burroughs after the 2020 Olympics

Hes a stud and could be a super coach. However, Nebby isnt exactly breaking any recruiting records with him in lincoln. Could he, if he was on the trail, maybe.

If he was the Iowa HC, the fact he isnt an Iowa guy, could hurt him. KJ was a great olympian, develops talents but couldnt run a college program to save his life. Is KJ comparable to Burroughs, wont know till we know. Same goes for

Nobody, not even gable could win right now. Accepting that fact is what is driving their internet meltdown.

 

[Str8DBLz]

i'll also add... Just because he is a great wrestler doesn't mean he would be a great coach!

Hes a stud and could be a super coach. However, Nebby isnt exactly breaking any recruiting records with him in lincoln. Could he, if he was on the trail, maybe.

If he was the Iowa HC, the fact he isnt an Iowa guy, could hurt him. KJ was a great olympian, develops talents but couldnt run a college program to save his life. Is KJ comparable to Burroughs, wont know till we know. Same goes for

Nobody, not even gable could win right now. Accepting that fact is what is driving their internet meltdown.

 

[ss7]

Hes a stud and could be a super coach. However, Nebby isnt exactly breaking any recruiting records with him in lincoln. Could he, if he was on the trail, maybe.

If he was the Iowa HC, the fact he isnt an Iowa guy, could hurt him. KJ was a great olympian, develops talents but couldnt run a college program to save his life. Is KJ comparable to Burroughs, wont know till we know. Same goes for

Nobody, not even gable could win right now. Accepting that fact is what is driving their internet meltdown.

I think people overlook the importance of assistants and the room. Obviously Cael is great (understatement of the year), but - as much as some might think it to be so - Cael doesn't simply pluck wrestlers out of high school and insert them as guaranteed multi-time champs.

It takes a lot more to win 7 in 8 years as a coach than being a great individual wrestler with name recognition.

 

[Ja1339]

I also don't think TnT is going anywhere anytime soon. I would argue that with some obvious exceptions, Iowa exceeded expectations last year and this year.

Imo, the only way that changes is if the AD at Iowa has a vision that the program needs to go in a whole new direction and completely breaks from tradition. They would have to conclude that there's been a paradigm shift with Cael going to PSU with the talent rich PA HS wrestlers at his doorstep. They would also need to believe that for them to get back to consistently winning titles again, they don't need a new coach with the same or similar philosophy. Until that happens, a new coach wouldn't lead to improved results Imo.

 

[dsites52]

I think the Brands are great coaches, That said, looking at what Ohio State has in the pipeline, and the teams that John Smith has put together with almost all homegrown talent, I think it is fair to wonder about their future. Who knows, it could all look different in a month. From the outside it feels like so much is riding on Spencer. Perhaps it is time for a fresh perspective. The last time they hired someone from outside the program it worked out pretty well.

I'm not hear calling for Tom and Terry's heads. And perhaps the woodshed visit they had in Okie may have lead me to ponder this more than I would have otherwise. But as it stands, they are currently struggling to fend off Michigan for 3rd best team in the B1G. I get that we are rolling out some of the all-time best lineups, but Is that where Iowa currently is? "We can't beat Penn State (nobody can) TaTo's got the jump on us. Maybe we can sneak away with third?"

 

[Hotshoe]

You also have to look at demographics. Half of Iowa's team is from PA. That speaks volumes on Iowa's in state wrestling.

 

[PANCAKE1]

The fans are calling for Jordan Burroughs after the 2020 Olympics

some of the quotes that I have read for Jordan in the past couple years, makes me believe that he do's not want to coach college.

 

[Antaeus]

As long as the shinier objects are far enough away (PA, OK, OH) they will survive. When they finish 1 or 2 seasons behind Iowa State they will be done.

 

[aalion]

Bingo. I can’t imagine the PSU faithful would be satisfied either after tasting dominance.

If DT was coach? And we’ were regularly Top 3? We’d be frustrated and want more but would not expect to fire David... hopefully we will never know!

 

[PSU_Pride_93]

Iowa didnt lose to some slapd*ck team, they lost to a top 3 program in the country. Could they have won, Yes. but that could be said for any team in a dual. I went thru the forum thread about it, and some do point out some mentions of failing to live up to expectations. At the end of day TnT are a remarkable coaching pair. They have recruited well, and continually put wrestlers on the podium.

Also lets not forget that they have KemDawg recovering. I understand its hard to say 1 person will make a difference especially with not knowing how hed wrestle up at 174 but that is still an AA out of the lineup

 

[aalion]

As long as the shinier objects are far enough away (PA, OK, OH) they will survive. When they finish 1 or 2 seasons behind Iowa State they will be done.

Yes ... if that happens TnT have a problem.

 

[tomsc]

I think people overlook the importance of assistants and the room. Obviously Cael is great (understatement of the year), but - as much as some might think it to be so - Cael doesn't simply pluck wrestlers out of high school and insert them as guaranteed multi-time champs.

It takes a lot more to win 7 in 8 years as a coach than being a great individual wrestler with name recognition.

I think a lot of times when we talk of "Cael" we know that what we really mean is the whole coaching staff. Cael is great in and of himself. But the other coaches play a huge role in PSU's success and Cael sure knows that! It's quite something that Casey & Cody have stayed so long as assistants. There are any number of head coaching jobs they could have had, had they wanted them.

 

[ss7]

I think a lot of times when we talk of "Cael" we know that what we really mean is the whole coaching staff. Cael is great in and of himself. But the other coaches play a huge role in PSU's success and Cael sure knows that! It's quite something that Casey & Cody have stayed so long as assistants. There are any number of head coaching jobs they could have had, had they wanted them.

Oh...I didn't mean PSU fans. Or the vast majority of what I would call reasonable wrestling fans.

I meant the specific subset of people who write off PSU's success as merely a by-product of recruiting, which is merely a by-product of Cael's individual greatness on the mat and name recognition.

 

[dunkej01]

You also have to look at demographics. Half of Iowa's team is from PA. That speaks volumes on Iowa's in state wrestling.

There are things people can point to with TnT, but they dont have an impact on the youth wrestling ranks.

Which I think if you go back in time, many of the great Iowa teams were dominated by Iowa guys up and down the lineup.

That they have to come to PA/IL/OH for over half their team isnt TnTs fault. Could be said they didnt embrace it soon enough, but I still say much of the problem in IC is that they dont have enough of their type of guys in state at the moment.

 

[matter7172]

TnT are not great coaches, imo. They started off a few 100 yard races at the beginning of their tenure at Iowa with a 95 yard head start (Gable on staff; double recruiting class; the indisputable #1 program in college wrestling; etc. etc.) and managed to win 3 titles.

Since 2010? Not much.

How did Terry do as a head coach? Iowa won't even mention his record at UTC in his bio. Three years as the resident coach of the US freestyle program with two gold medals total for the program?

Tom as head coach outside of the cream puff job at Iowa? 1-15 in duals in his second year at VT. Yep. That's a true mark of a great coach.

How many top guys have stagnated under TnT's charge?

Where does the "great" status start? Is Zalesky great? He won as many titles at Iowa in less time without Gable holding his hand (although Gable might have been helping push him out the door).

Both guys fell flat on their faces outside the bubble job. That's reality. That's not great.

You also have to look at demographics. Half of Iowa's team is from PA. That speaks volumes on Iowa's in state wrestling.

I think if you go back in time, many of the great Iowa teams were dominated by Iowa guys up and down the lineup.

Even in Gable years, Iowa always had a large chunk of their core from out of state. Look at the list of multi-champs at Iowa - many (probably close to half) are from New York, Illinois, New Jersey, South Dakota, etc. The idea that Gable did it with a roster of all Iowa wrestlers is a fabrication.

http://d1collegewrestling.net/Honors_Multiple.html

And Dresser? He will be #1 in the state of Iowa before long. He's done a great job bringing a program back from the ashes before. Thank Tom Brands for the first opportunity.

 

[WPB_lion]

There is a high probability that this thread may turn into a dumpster fire, but I saw a flippant mention of it and I want to pose the serious question, Is Cael currently TnT's biggest purveyor of job security. I may not fully believe it is on Tom and Terry, but their lack of success without any measurable success, how long before TnT is given their walking papers? Objectively. Does Dresser get the job with 2 or 3 good years at Iowa State?

It is going to be very difficult for any coach to achieve greater success than TnT at Iowa with Cael at PSU and Ryan at tOSU. Currently, there is simply not enough High School in Iowa to be better than PSU and tOSU on a consistent basis with the quality of coaching at each institution.

 

[aalion]

Matter, you know WAY more about it than I do. Hard to know as a relative outsider if their relative success (consistent Top 3) is due to Iowa reputation or the staff's capabilities. Top 3 every year seems at a minimum very very good to me though...

 

[dsites52]

It is going to be very difficult for any coach to achieve greater success than TnT at Iowa with Cael at PSU and Ryan at tOSU. Currently, there is simply not enough High School in Iowa to be better than PSU and tOSU on a consistent basis with the quality of coaching at each institution.

Right, and I guess that is the problem I having trouble with. Iowa is free to recruit outside of Iowa just like everyone else. In fact, Aren't all their current studs from the great commonwealth of Pennsylvania? I've been wrong before, But I see, all current trends maintaining as they are, that Iowa will not much longer be the class of Iowa. And yes, ISU has a rich history, but they were a wasteland and the are not a wasteland anymore.and it's only be a year +. To answer the former question, if DT is struggling to stay in the top 3 and meanwhile, Pitt is nipping at our heels, I'd be anxious, as well.

 

[matter7172]

Matter, you know WAY more about it than I do. Hard to know as a relative outsider if their relative success (consistent Top 3) is due to Iowa reputation or the staff's capabilities. Top 3 every year seems at a minimum very very good to me though...

I look to the obvious advantage of being the perceived "top dog" in college wrestling before their arrival as a HUGE advantage. And what have they done with that advantage. Largely wasted it away. Much more telling to me is their basically total failure outside that advantaged position.

And, I repeat, Iowa, even in their best years, relied heavily on out of state talent.

 

[funkisfun12]

Aren't all their current studs from the great commonwealth of Pennsylvania?

Marinelli is from Ohio.

 

[Hotshoe]

There are things people can point to with TnT, but they dont have an impact on the youth wrestling ranks.

Which I think if you go back in time, many of the great Iowa teams were dominated by Iowa guys up and down the lineup.

That they have to come to PA/IL/OH for over half their team isnt TnTs fault. Could be said they didnt embrace it soon enough, but I still say much of the problem in IC is that they dont have enough of their type of guys in state at the moment.

Agreed. That's why I said the demographics changed. That's not on TnT.

 

[goStanford18]

A few years ago, I took a class on the rhetoric of excellence and decided to write a research paper on the excellence of coaching. As part of the paper, I decided to interview Stanford's wrestling coaches. At the time that was: Jason Borelli, Jamill Kelly, and Ray Blake. I interviewed each separately and asked who they would point out as an "excellent/expert" coach (i.e., who is the very best at the D1 level right now). The names that came up were: Cael Sanderson, Tom Ryan, John Smith, and Tim Flynn.

FWIW, Smith was Kelly's coach and Cunningham was Borelli's coach, so it may not be exactly surprising that the OSU and PSU programs were mentioned. Flynn's success at a smaller program like Edinboro, and Ryan's transfer of success from Hofstra to tOSU were highlighted. At the time, Flynn was fresh off a 5th and 3rd place finish, and Ryan just captured his first national championship.

Anyways, I can't imagine Iowa going after Flynn, and there's no way they are getting any of the other 3 mentioned. IMHO, I don't think there's anyone Iowa can go after that would be a definite upgrade over the Brands outside of Sanderson and Ryan.

 

[NoVa Lion]

It's silly to fire a great coach just because he isn't a historically great coach. To use an SEC football analogy, there is only one Nick Saban. You fire a coach because he's not Saban and you might end up with Kirby Smart but you might end up with Ed Orgeron. Be careful what you wish for.

Didn;t Iowa already do this when they fired Zalesky?

 

[El-Jefe]

[ Iowa fans who want to boot Brands ] = [ Ohio State fans who want to boot Ryan ]

(We all know they exist too. And they're equally credible.)