Tom Brands and the Future of the Hawkeyes Program

[nitlion6]

RBY beats Desanto--a health Lee?????? Not out of the realm of possibilities but a very tall order

My point is RBY is equal to their DeSanto. If Lee is the comparison then the Iowa subset of studs is 3 (Lee, Marinelli, Kemerer) not 4 (Lee, Desanto, Marinelli, Kemerer).

 

[nitlion6]

I still think "who Cael is" as a person is sometimes undervalued as a part of the secret sauce. A lot of what we do as a team can be taught, but you also have to walk the walk in meaningful ways to be an effective leader. Having completely-trusted family as assistants w/ the same mentality also helps a lot, and would be difficult for even one of our greats to replicate.

I think Cael is a freak of nature. He puts his own skin on the table to ensure those standing with him get their's.

I am not sure how the group gets it done, but somehow they all manage to get on and stay on the same page and work it as a single minded group.

 

[nitlion6]

What if Minnesota threw in all the Xanax sale proceeds?

He is pretty strong in his nothing Gopher sentiment.

 

[jammenz]

We were talking about that possibly yesterday and Cael told me that was possible, the only place he could never go was Minnesota.

Well, at least he would no longer have a losing dual record vs Minny.

 

[dunkej01]

Well, at least he would no longer have a losing dual record vs Minny.

(ill help you out here) AND put a heavy weight on the top of the podium.

 

[rll1957]

There is a high probability that this thread may turn into a dumpster fire, but I saw a flippant mention of it and I want to pose the serious question, Is Cael currently TnT's biggest purveyor of job security. I may not fully believe it is on Tom and Terry, but their lack of success without any measurable success, how long before TnT is given their walking papers? Objectively. Does Dresser get the job with 2 or 3 good years at Iowa State?

 

[dropster45]

TnT are not great coaches, imo. They started off a few 100 yard races at the beginning of their tenure at Iowa with a 95 yard head start (Gable on staff; double recruiting class; the indisputable #1 program in college wrestling; etc. etc.) and managed to win 3 titles.

Since 2010? Not much.

How did Terry do as a head coach? Iowa won't even mention his record at UTC in his bio. Three years as the resident coach of the US freestyle program with two gold medals total for the program?

Tom as head coach outside of the cream puff job at Iowa? 1-15 in duals in his second year at VT. Yep. That's a true mark of a great coach.

How many top guys have stagnated under TnT's charge?

Where does the "great" status start? Is Zalesky great? He won as many titles at Iowa in less time without Gable holding his hand (although Gable might have been helping push him out the door).

Both guys fell flat on their faces outside the bubble job. That's reality. That's not great.





Even in Gable years, Iowa always had a large chunk of their core from out of state. Look at the list of multi-champs at Iowa - many (probably close to half) are from New York, Illinois, New Jersey, South Dakota, etc. The idea that Gable did it with a roster of all Iowa wrestlers is a fabrication.

http://d1collegewrestling.net/Honors_Multiple.html

And Dresser? He will be #1 in the state of Iowa before long. He's done a great job bringing a program back from the ashes before. Thank Tom Brands for the first opportunity.

No no no - Tom and Terry are the greatest coaches on the planet. They should stay at Iowa until they topple Penn State, however long that takes.

 

[nitlion6]

No no no - Tom and Terry are the greatest coaches on the planet. They should stay at Iowa until they topple Penn State, however long that takes.

Yes.

 

[RoarLions1]

Dynasties come and go. The right coach in the right circumstance with the right approach changes the landscape.

John Wooden, Geno Auriemma, Anson Dorrance, and Nick Saban come to mind. Gene Wettsone and Russ Rose at PSU also come to mind. And in college wrestling, we have Dan Gable.

All were/are pioneers. All did something a little different, and in the short term, it resulted in winning, winning and more winning. Other coaches were left to copy, or try to copy the new "model to success". They were the same coach before the dynasty, and had winning programs, and were thrust into the situation of catching up.

Cael is one of those pioneers, and Penn State is a dynasty, for now. The rest of college wrestling is left to catch up, reinvent themselves and their program, start doing what it takes to be that top dog again. It's good to go through that every once in a while, or stagnation, and lack of growth occur. Penn State's success is good for all of college wrestling, same as Dan Gable's success was good for college wrestling. Other programs are changing, for the better.

Tom Brands is a successful coach. The idea of trading him in for a different model (metaphor), is totally bizarre thinking to me. Fans want to win, administrators want to win, but relieving just the man (of his duties) that can lead a program back to the top, is a knee-jerk, what-have-you-done-for-me-lately overreaction. My opinion, and just mine. Listen to his words, then watch his actions. He gives credit to Penn State, recognizes a need to change, as well as being open to change, and then makes change happen. Fast enough? Probably not.

 

[a_mshaffer]

some of you guys are going a bit far. Who says TnT are not offensive minded? Just because they don't have the horses or the better wrestler? I've seen more than a few of the Iowa wrestlers stay offensive. Think someone mentioned their bonus points at NCAAs last year. True that may be coming from a small subset - but it is coming from the superior wrestlers scoring. Maybe we should talk about how getting to their offense seems to be difficult and that is the breakdown. It certainly appears (outside of Kem) that they are taught offense off of their tie-ups and to pressure. They certainly pressure but can't get to the offense a lot of the time.

 

[dropster45]

Iowa does indeed create “offensive” wrestlers:
DeSanto, Gilman, Stache...

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

Iowa does indeed create “offensive” wrestlers:
DeSanto, Gilman, Stache...

No offense intented, but Stache was offensive long before TnT taught him to be offensive.

 

[dsites52]

So the prevailing answer I'm hearing is that the goalposts have shifted for Iowa. And I get it, there's about 71 other programs that would love to finish 3-4 on average for the decade, but it just seems so foreign to me. Granted, when I was in school, Minny looked like they'd be a hammer forever. Well, we know where they are now.

 

[dropster45]

No offense intented, but Stache was offensive long before TnT taught him to be offensive.

Precisely

 

[bwifan]

Tough to get rid of a coach who still has his team finishing near the top every year and has coached the team to multiple national championships.

 

[Afw6006]

In my opinion, for Iowa to keep moving in the right direction to get past where they have been stuck the past handful of years (2-4 range), they need to change the culture and the identity of the program to a degree. While elite kids these days are still hard working and can embrace the grind, I don't believe they are all believers any longer that you have to embrace the grind in the true Iowa fashion that Gable implemented to reach their goals. Cael & Co have shown that at PSU with their focus on play wrestling/sparring over going live and even tOSU has the "positive infinity" mentality and I think Tom Ryan and his staff are able to connect well to the current generation.

I think that TnT are good coaches but I'm not sure how well they connect to this generation of wrestlers and previously didn't seem willing to get into social media and to change the way they do things in the practice room. From what I've read, it sounds like they recognize they need to evolve to align with this generation of wrestlers and I believe they have tried to have a better social media presence, show that they can have fun at practice too, etc. They are also starting to dip into the talent pool of PA/OH as they are recognizing that taking the home grown talent at Iowa and trying to develop it isn't going to always be fruitful.

I agree with other's that having good assistants are just as important. Members of HR seem to think that M* does a good job with recruiting when it comes to connecting to prospects but I'm not sure about his coaching abilities? From what I remember of him in college, his style was the grinding "Iowa Style" that seems to not be clicking with guys now.

I think TnT are good coaches but they need to continue to try to evolve to pander to interests of today's wrestlers and be open to looking at assistant coaches from outside the Iowa mold

 

[raslen007]

some of you guys are going a bit far. Who says TnT are not offensive minded? Just because they don't have the horses or the better wrestler? I've seen more than a few of the Iowa wrestlers stay offensive. Think someone mentioned their bonus points at NCAAs last year. True that may be coming from a small subset - but it is coming from the superior wrestlers scoring. Maybe we should talk about how getting to their offense seems to be difficult and that is the breakdown. It certainly appears (outside of Kem) that they are taught offense off of their tie-ups and to pressure. They certainly pressure but can't get to the offense a lot of the time.

Also some of our guys have not been overly offensive. However compared to Nolf & Nickal not many are.

 

[funkisfun12]

some of you guys are going a bit far. Who says TnT are not offensive minded? Just because they don't have the horses or the better wrestler? I've seen more than a few of the Iowa wrestlers stay offensive. Think someone mentioned their bonus points at NCAAs last year. True that may be coming from a small subset - but it is coming from the superior wrestlers scoring. Maybe we should talk about how getting to their offense seems to be difficult and that is the breakdown. It certainly appears (outside of Kem) that they are taught offense off of their tie-ups and to pressure. They certainly pressure but can't get to the offense a lot of the time.

Iowa didn't have a single takedown in at least 6 of the 10 individual matches on Sunday. (Maybe 7, not sure about 141. Murin got either a late td or reversal, which is probably why he didn't cry.) That's gotta be embarrassing for a top 5 team.

 

[jammenz]

(ill help you out here) AND put a heavy weight on the top of the podium.

Hey, I was saving that for later.

 

[ItalianLion]

... administrators want to win ...

I’m not so sure this is always the case... although I do believe that in Iowa they want to win, but we’ve seen too many Michigan State (25 years of dreadful below mediocre performance), Lock Haven (under the prior dictatorial administration of “all men bad”); Eastern Michigan (who cares if we now have a “coach of the year”); Boise State (let’s play ball... baseball that is!); Boston Univesity (field hockey anyone & what wrestling endowment?); et cetera where we know the administration is at best “indifferent” to wrestling and at worst, down right hostile to it.

So I suppose my rant is now far afield of the OP (forgive my passion... dishonest administrations rub me the wrong way), but other than that clause, I agree with Roar that coach-pioneers are the dynasty makers, and that the pendulum will one day swing in another direction, but both coach and administrators need to be open to the reality that they may need to change (again, I don’t think that is the issue with Iowa), but it is an issue to continuing the growth of the sport.

Ok, getting off my soapbox... I promise to go back now and just play attention to my streaming posts where I actually have a chance of knowing what I’m talking about.

 

[aalion]

I am no wrestling guru ... but I do think Cael and co in particular focus on exploiting the talents and abilities of their guys, both physically and psychologically, rather than imposing a single style. Zain is very different from Nolf or DT. All them different from Bo or Q. Hall is a world class counter wrestler- unique compared to the others. Exploiting their natural skills and abilities seems to be a specialty of the PSU coaches ... fill them w confidence, make taking chances OK... work hard but have fun ....

And lastly while I am not positive... stay at a weight where you are feeling strong and confident to let things rip...

 

[SWPA]

Only way you get rid of Brands is to bring in Cael or maybe TanTom. I don't see Cael going there but Ryan obviously has ties.

If not Cael or Ryan..then you'd need to wait for one of the greats to hang them up..Burroughs, Snyder, Dake and the guy who I feel will be at the top of the food chain when he goes into coaching..David Taylor

I don't know, Iowa is further away from Aruba.

 

[matter7172]

I am no wrestling guru ... but I do think Cael and co in particular focus on exploiting the talents and abilities of their guys, both physically and psychologically, rather than imposing a single style. Zain is very different from Nolf or DT. All them different from Bo or Q. Hall is a world class counter wrestler- unique compared to the others. Exploiting their natural skills and abilities seems to be a specialty of the PSU coaches ... fill them w confidence, make taking chances OK... work hard but have fun ....

And lastly while I am not positive... stay at a weight where you are feeling strong and confident to let things rip...

This is spot on. I don't think there is a particular Penn State style other than doing what you do best and letting it fly. Cael and the staff don't try to force you into a particular style.

As far as the Brands go, if people are willing to put a "great" tag on Zalesky, I'm fine with one being placed on Brands. But given the abysmal job done outside of the Iowa job by the Brands, I think "great" is way too generous. I think that what prevents TnT from being booted from the Iowa job is a failure in confidence from the AD - being afraid of taking a chance. Which is kind of crazy. They took a chance on a guy who led a weaker conference team to a 1-15 dual meet record when they hired Tom Brands. It's easy to find another one of those.

 

[aalion]

This is spot on. I don't think there is a particular Penn State style other than doing what you do best and letting it fly. Cael and the staff don't try to force you into a particular style.

As far as the Brands go, if people are willing to put a "great" tag on Zalesky, I'm fine with one being placed on Brands. But given the abysmal job done outside of the Iowa job by the Brands, I think "great" is way too generous. I think that what prevents TnT from being booted from the Iowa job is a failure in confidence from the AD - being afraid of taking a chance. Which is kind of crazy. They took a chance on a guy who led a weaker conference team to a 1-15 dual meet record when they hired Tom Brands. It's easy to find another one of those.

It is the "letting it fly" part that I think is, if not unique, at least a major differentiator. Cenzo two years ago to me is the example... up a point plus 1:00 in riding time, no stall warnings against, on the biggest stage vs a 2 time champion that noone thought he could beat. 90 seconds left. He probably could have collar tied, pushed, backed up, played the edge, taken 2 stall warnings and won. Instead he ends up in an upper body throw, high risk, situation.

Bo would probably be going for 4th title if he wrestled more conservatively vs MyMar in the finals the first time. Then again, maybe if he wrestled cautious he would have lost 3-2 last year.

There are exceptions. Nico's NCAA title win was a very conservative 3rd period. But in general (I think) PSU tries to get guys to embrace and expect victory rather than fear failure.

Now if I could only figure out how the hyper-competitive dodgeball warmups factor into this program psychology. If you have ever seen these guys battle on the dodgeball court, you'd swear the team was the reigning American Dodgeball Association of America champions and that wrestling stuff was just something they did to cool down after Dodgeball practice. I am not kidding - they get intense.

 

[RoarLions1]

Letting it fly, to me, borders on reckless abandon. Not sure that's what others mean, but that's how I'm taking it.

Coach talks about "tightening things up", and "work on position", etc., etc., etc. Fundamentals ARE critical, and not ignored.

I'll define the approach at PSU a different way;
-- Wrestle through all positions
-- Solid seven minutes (effort)
-- Wrestle loose
-- Have fun
-- Don't be afraid to make a mistake (hardest of all, embodied by Jason, but not all truly embrace this)

 

[tomsc]

This is spot on. I don't think there is a particular Penn State style other than doing what you do best and letting it fly. Cael and the staff don't try to force you into a particular style.

As far as the Brands go, if people are willing to put a "great" tag on Zalesky, I'm fine with one being placed on Brands. But given the abysmal job done outside of the Iowa job by the Brands, I think "great" is way too generous. I think that what prevents TnT from being booted from the Iowa job is a failure in confidence from the AD - being afraid of taking a chance. Which is kind of crazy. They took a chance on a guy who led a weaker conference team to a 1-15 dual meet record when they hired Tom Brands. It's easy to find another one of those.

Looking at what coaches have done in programs outside top tier programs, you have to respect what Tom Ryan did at Hofstra before going to tOSU and Popolizio did at Binghampton before going to NCS. (I wonder where/when he goes next)

 

[Lyons212]

Looking at what coaches have done in programs outside top tier programs, you have to respect what Tom Ryan did at Hofstra before going to tOSU and Popolizio did at Binghampton before going to NCS. (I wonder where/when he goes next)

You can include Dresser at VT and Smith at Missouri on that list of coaches who took literally nothing and built it into something.

 

[Gray52]

Only way you get rid of Brands is to bring in Cael or maybe TanTom. I don't see Cael going there but Ryan obviously has ties.

If not Cael or Ryan..then you'd need to wait for one of the greats to hang them up..Burroughs, Snyder, Dake and the guy who I feel will be at the top of the food chain when he goes into coaching..David Taylor

Tan Tom isn’t going anywhere. Why would he take a step backwards in terms of 1. Recruiting area, 2. Facilities, 3. Job security.
He’ll be at tOSU for a long long time.

 

[Grass]

As long as a majority of Iowa fans are behind TNT they aren't going anywhere. If you read HR (I know that doesn't represent all Iowa wrestling fans) a majority of the posters support TNT regardless of what has happened the last eight or so years. In TNT they trust. I do think it's a waste to have both of them there though. They are basically one in the same. It seems like they are petrified to bring in an outsider who may bring something different to the table.

 

[Sportfan2017]

All Administrators want to win.....just like all athletes want to win. But do they want to do what is necessary to prepare to win? In many instances the answer is no. This is especially true with sports that don't produce a positive revenue stream. I do feel like a change is coming.....thanks in part to Increased awareness of wrestling on social media.....ie…...FLOwrestling and others.

 

[js8793]

Iowa didnt lose to some slapd*ck team, they lost to a top 3 program in the country. Could they have won, Yes. but that could be said for any team in a dual. I went thru the forum thread about it, and some do point out some mentions of failing to live up to expectations. At the end of day TnT are a remarkable coaching pair. They have recruited well, and continually put wrestlers on the podium.

Also lets not forget that they have KemDawg recovering. I understand its hard to say 1 person will make a difference especially with not knowing how hed wrestle up at 174 but that is still an AA out of the lineup

As well as preseason #1 Stoll struggling after so many injuries, not to mention whatever is up with Spencer. The hawkeyes have been snake bitten this year, and Ok St. is a great team who had their best crowd ever. I think Brands has done a pretty good job considering the circumstances.

 

[Hotshoe]

Maybe Iowa will offer a bunch of money and Cael will jump ship again.

Jump ship? So I guess you never took another job to advance your career? I guess folks said you jumped ship or actually bettered your life for you and yours? Yeah, I thought so.

 

[El-Jefe]

Jump ship? So I guess you never took another job to advance your career? I guess folks said you jumped ship or actually bettered your life for you and yours? Yeah, I thought so.

Jammen jumped ship to Nebraska at the first sign of trouble in Gooferville.

 

[PD4thespawn]

Jammen jumped ship to Nebraska at the first sign of trouble in Gooferville.

and now is an iowa state guy

 

[nitlion6]

As well as preseason #1 Stoll struggling after so many injuries, not to mention whatever is up with Spencer. The hawkeyes have been snake bitten this year, and Ok St. is a great team who had their best crowd ever. I think Brands has done a pretty good job considering the circumstances.

Best crowd ever? Two years ago against Penn State for the NWCA duals championship the crowd size was 14,059. Sunday's was 13,811.

 

[lookleft goright]

Best crowd ever? Two years ago against Penn State for the NWCA duals championship the crowd size was 14,059. Sunday's was 13,811.

Yeah but against Penn state the crowd was quiet and had little to cheer about. Against Iowa they were rambunctious and crazy. The place was electric. So quantity vs PSU was better, but quality vs Iowa was better. I would have to go with best crowd ever. After all, it was this year's dual of the century. ;-) (that is supposed to be a windy face emoji - I think)

 

[nitlion6]

Yeah but against Penn state the crowd was quiet and had little to cheer about. Against Iowa they were rambunctious and crazy. The place was electric. So quantity vs PSU was better, but quality vs Iowa was better. I would have to go with best crowd ever. After all, it was this year's dual of the century. ;-) (that is supposed to be a windy face emoji - I think)

This year's black and gold adorned co Big10 dual championship team certainly did provide the Oklahoma State home crowd many more cheerful, cheering moments of celebration than that 2017 Penn State did.

TnT must be much more gracious guests than Cael and company.