Their present lineup studs and all....
125 PA
133 PA
141 PA
149 FL
157 PA
165 OH
174 IA, Kem PA inj
184 IA
197 ILL
285 MN
Hey any hawk posters....that Jeremiah Moody seems he might be a fun personality?! His team picture is great!!
Tom Brands and the Future of the Hawkeyes Program
- Thread starter dsites52
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125 PA
133 PA
141 PA
149 FL
157 PA
165 OH
174 IA, Kem PA inj
184 IA
197 ILL
285 MN
Hey any hawk posters....that Jeremiah Moody seems he might be a fun personality?! His team picture is great!!
Most of us weren't alive the last time they hired someone from outside the program: Dave McCuskey in 1952.
Since then:
- Gary Kurdelmeier - Iowa alum + assistant coach
- Dan Gable - 4 years as Iowa assistant coach when hired
- Jim Zalesky - Iowa alum + assistant coach
- Tom Brands - Iowa alum + assistant coach
I think most people would consider Gable as a hire from outside the program. I certainly do.
Only way you get rid of Brands is to bring in Cael or maybe TanTom. I don't see Cael going there but Ryan obviously has ties.
If not Cael or Ryan..then you'd need to wait for one of the greats to hang them up..Burroughs, Snyder, Dake and the guy who I feel will be at the top of the food chain when he goes into coaching..David Taylor
If not Cael or Ryan..then you'd need to wait for one of the greats to hang them up..Burroughs, Snyder, Dake and the guy who I feel will be at the top of the food chain when he goes into coaching..David Taylor
How is someone who has been inside the program as a paid professional for 4 years considered an outsider?
By that standard, Ohio State just hired an outsider to replace Urban Meyer.
If someone made the argument that Gable was hired 4 years earlier as a Head Coach in Waiting, fine -- but then who is Iowa gonna hire today for an extended internship under Brands (who is nowhere near retirement age)?
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There are plenty of good coaches out there, look at somebody like Popolizio at NC State. Problem is the Iowa fans will not accept a coach unless it is a huge name or an Iowa alum.
The real problem with Iowa wrestling is Dan Gable. His philosophy permeates that entire program, the grind them down in practice (only the strong survive), collar tie and push in matches (scream for stalling), that is the Iowa style. The Iowa style is dead, it no longer works. Wrestling is now about scoring points.
The coaching philosophy in all sports has changed drastically in the last 20 years, more emphasis on fun and recovery...realizing that recovery is a huge part of athletes reaching peak performance.
All you need to know about the problems with Iowa wrestling is the interview of Dan Gable and Gable Steveson at NCAA's a few years ago, Dan was asked about having fun wrestling and looked like he just took a bite out of a shyte sandwich trying to answer, Steveson is looking at him like he is nuts.
Until they are willing to break from the Gable philosophy, they will always fall short of that title. Right now they are living off their tradition, a few more years of 2nd to 5th place finishes and recruits won't even realize Iowa had a tradition of excellence.
Wrestling was about scoring points when Gable coached -- at least it was at Iowa. His teams scored plenty.
Of course that's a lot easier when you acquire top scoring talent. Lee, DeSanto, Marinelli, and Kemerer score. Maybe they could score more, but they score.
But the rest of the lineup ... nobody is turning Turk, Murin, or Lugo into Nick Lee. Nobody is turning Young, Bowman, or Wilcke into Shak. Nobody is turning Stoll into Cassar.
Meanwhile, most of the top competition is acquiring scoring talent.
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Some of the names Iowa has been throwing out to coach are in the prime of their international career (except Burroughs) and with deep ties to their former school, so I’d be suprised to see that happen, especially DT. I really like TNT and most of their guys seems like great people.
My favorite article from last off season was written about Cael’s dynasty. I believe the ending went something like “does Iowa have a Cael problem? They sure do; and so does the rest of the country” really liked that
My favorite article from last off season was written about Cael’s dynasty. I believe the ending went something like “does Iowa have a Cael problem? They sure do; and so does the rest of the country” really liked that
I agree with many of the points here, but I have to disagree with the fact that there are no upgrades over Brands. I could be missing something; but there’s nothing anyone could say that would convince me that the measuring stick at Iowa stops at 4th place because, We are Penn State, Ohio is doing their thing, John Smith is down there turning lumps of coal into shiny rocks, so hey, what can ya do?
I’ll get a little crazy, what about Ben Askren? Iowa throws stupid money at Ben and he shows up and completely turns things on his head. That might be my unrealistic example, but I think a move of that nature might need discussed at the very least. They can’t out prestige Cael or TaTo or Smith but there could be a young upstart guy to rattle the cage.
I’ll get a little crazy, what about Ben Askren? Iowa throws stupid money at Ben and he shows up and completely turns things on his head. That might be my unrealistic example, but I think a move of that nature might need discussed at the very least. They can’t out prestige Cael or TaTo or Smith but there could be a young upstart guy to rattle the cage.
Leave them alone. Trust their process. They have a will and will find a way but they are chasing the new Legend and dynasty. Now if they slip below The OSU’s consistantly there might be issues. IU could very well be the team to beat next year. Don’t poke the bear. He’s sleeping.
I like Escobedo but man that’s a big turnaround! I don’t think the Hoosiers are the team to beat just yet.
Isn’t part of the question getting University ADs to even care about wrestling? Here was (is) the longevity of some other programs that were (or are) “stalled out” (one man’s opinion) where the ADs didn’t (don’t) seem to care...
IU Goldman 26 years
MSU Minkel 25 years
Wis Davis 24 years
UM MacFarland 19 years
MD McKoy 11 years
Just another perspective.
Two pages in and no fire alarms yet!
IU Goldman 26 years
MSU Minkel 25 years
Wis Davis 24 years
UM MacFarland 19 years
MD McKoy 11 years
Just another perspective.
Two pages in and no fire alarms yet!
Isn’t part of the question getting University ADs to even care about wrestling? Here was (is) the longevity of some other programs that were (or are) “stalled out” (one man’s opinion) where the ADs didn’t (don’t) seem to care...
IU Goldman 26 years
MSU Minkel 25 years
Wis Davis 24 years
UM MacFarland 19 years
MD McKoy 11 years
Just another perspective.
Two pages in and no fire alarms yet!
Sadly, this is most likely the case. Also, I think this could also contribute to the notion of “Well, they don’t have Cael or TaTo, so how could they be better?” This goes back to a conversation they bring up constantly on FRL which is wrestling coaches having the same accountability as the big boy sports. You could make the same arguments for Okie State minus the fact that they are the class of the Big 12. With no one really pushing them except Mizzou.
I'm not a mind reader, (contrary to my wife's expectations) so I have no idea what the AD at Iowa is thinking. However, as someone already pointed out, you don't dump a current coach unless you already have a plan in mind.
Except, of course, if the current coach has done something to become a target. Again, I don't know what would trigger the Iowa AD's ire, but I do remember a few years ago when the USC AD fired Kiffin while he was traveling back after an embarrasing loss to ASU. So just about anything can be the breaking point depending on the personalities involved.
Except, of course, if the current coach has done something to become a target. Again, I don't know what would trigger the Iowa AD's ire, but I do remember a few years ago when the USC AD fired Kiffin while he was traveling back after an embarrasing loss to ASU. So just about anything can be the breaking point depending on the personalities involved.
Missouri left the Big 12 a couple of years ago and wrestles in the MAC I believe.
Money is a factor in why the accountability isn’t the same as the big boy sports.
T&T are inarguably very very good coaches. There recruiting especially lately has been strong and they have the perigee and record on the mat as wrestlers. Under them the Hawks are almost guaranteed a perrenial top 5 with a few dips here and there on weak cycles. Most programs would dream for such.
Are they ''Elite" or transcendental in the sense they get the very most out of their talent and help set the bar nationally, given their now extensive record and distancing themselves from the Gable influence, I think not.
If lightning strikes in their recruiting cycle they likely will win a single championship here or there, but I don't see them putting together a multi year run or building what will be recognized as one of the top 2 perenial programs in the country.
The unanswered question here is without T&T how bad could the program get? My calculous is it is very unlikely they could ever fall out of the top ten. Most assuredly that program will attract the top coaching talent in the nation anytime they seek a candidate. Many kid's dream of Iowa black and yellow and are awed by the thought of wrestling in Carver Hawkeye. There is a tradition there that will preservere. In this context T&T certainly are not excelling but the risk of a change may be overblow.
I believe T&Ts jobs are iron clad safe excepting the fact of the threat from Iowa State. If Dresser overtakes then in the next few years their days will be numbered. Being the best program in the state of Iowa is a must, and a far more clear and present danger than the threat posed by tOSU and PSU.
Are they ''Elite" or transcendental in the sense they get the very most out of their talent and help set the bar nationally, given their now extensive record and distancing themselves from the Gable influence, I think not.
If lightning strikes in their recruiting cycle they likely will win a single championship here or there, but I don't see them putting together a multi year run or building what will be recognized as one of the top 2 perenial programs in the country.
The unanswered question here is without T&T how bad could the program get? My calculous is it is very unlikely they could ever fall out of the top ten. Most assuredly that program will attract the top coaching talent in the nation anytime they seek a candidate. Many kid's dream of Iowa black and yellow and are awed by the thought of wrestling in Carver Hawkeye. There is a tradition there that will preservere. In this context T&T certainly are not excelling but the risk of a change may be overblow.
I believe T&Ts jobs are iron clad safe excepting the fact of the threat from Iowa State. If Dresser overtakes then in the next few years their days will be numbered. Being the best program in the state of Iowa is a must, and a far more clear and present danger than the threat posed by tOSU and PSU.
When Spencer takes over as AD I'm sure he will evaluate the Brands boys, but I read somewhere that is still like 8 years from now. Gable has very little to do with the Brands at this point and spends more time around Dresser than Brands. It couldn't be more wrong to blame Gable for the state of the Iowa program. I blame recruiting and the complete inability to recognize future talent. The new guys coming in like Assad and Kennedy are more of the same- club the head and push. Brooks will party all over Assad and expose him as a slow lumbering oaf. Brands recruits fully developed strong guys who are limited offensively but have heavy hands and good motors. They learn to club and push and try to gain stalling points. It works very well in Carver and they can beat anyone in that hell hole, but in a neutral venue with a neutral ref it simply doesn't work anymore. It is still a solid plan to keep a team in the top 5 always and hope to steal a title during reloading phases for PSU. I wish ISU was in the place Iowa is, but I guess if you aren't the lead dog the view is the same either way.
That's funny because Assad is one of the Hawk recruits Robbie Howard jabbed yesterday about stalling vs. scoring.
I’d definitely be in the “keep them” camp. There’s plenty of reasons for optimism in that program if you take two steps away from an L in a dual. They should be much better next year, and a legit title contender. Sure, it’s absurd to think you’re one hire away from another dynasty. True, it worked for us, but dynasties are pretty freakin rare.
If any of you think DT wouldn’t take that job in a few years because he’s a PSU guy, you’re dead wrong. But I’m not sure i’d take that risk as an AD.
Can someone explain the mental gymnastics needed to convert “Iowa Style” from the Gable days of brutalizing, demoralizing, and yes, scoring your way to victory to today’s definition of pushing, keeping it close, whining for penalty points and stealing it at the end with one great shot? It just seems like you’re conceding so much before the whistle with that mentality. Is it purely a question of a relative drop in talent (per EJ’s note about the hawks that do score points)? Or what else precipitated this shift? I just don’t see the continuity there.
If any of you think DT wouldn’t take that job in a few years because he’s a PSU guy, you’re dead wrong. But I’m not sure i’d take that risk as an AD.
Can someone explain the mental gymnastics needed to convert “Iowa Style” from the Gable days of brutalizing, demoralizing, and yes, scoring your way to victory to today’s definition of pushing, keeping it close, whining for penalty points and stealing it at the end with one great shot? It just seems like you’re conceding so much before the whistle with that mentality. Is it purely a question of a relative drop in talent (per EJ’s note about the hawks that do score points)? Or what else precipitated this shift? I just don’t see the continuity there.
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My guess is the Brands will retire on their own, before they are ever fired. They are very critical of themselves and if they think they are not the best option, they will step down in a totally classy manner. Otherwise, the AD and fans love the enthusiasm and loyalty and love those guys have for Iowa wrestling and they will be there as long as they are willing. JMHO!
Not really. Zalesky really let the program slip, especially after Gable's guys were gone. I may be wrong, but I think they ended up with a losing record in duals.
I honestly can't believe the number of Hawk fans that have tucked tail and run. Conceded to being the 3/4 best team in the nation on a yearly basis.
The one name no one seems to be mentioning, and should be #1 on Iowa's list in Casey. Period. That's where it begins and ends for me. Blank check, how much do you want.
Now it's an actual battle for assistant coaches - DT, Nickal, Nolf, Hall, Cenzo, etc.
The one name no one seems to be mentioning, and should be #1 on Iowa's list in Casey. Period. That's where it begins and ends for me. Blank check, how much do you want.
Now it's an actual battle for assistant coaches - DT, Nickal, Nolf, Hall, Cenzo, etc.
Casey was mentioned in a similar thread on HR. Not only is he a great coach, but he is a great guy. Fantastic to talk wrestling (or life) with if you ever get the chance.
Given DT's significant investment in his own business and his desire to compete at the international level, I doubt he goes anywhere soon.
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Olympic redshirts are the big unknown, but assuming no impact to either the Lions or the Hawks for their DeSanto we have a RBY, their Marinelli we have a Cenzo, their Kemerer we have a Markie. We do not have a Spencer, but we have a Cassar.
Hell there is in my mind a better than a small possibility Spencer may end up at 133 next year which eliminates DeSanto from the conversation.
I agree w/ you on the competition level (hence my "in a few years" disclaimer), but I see M2 as a means for him to establish coaching cred and recruiting pathways in hopes of one day taking a D1 HC job. He pretty much admitted as much on T-Row & Funky a couple years back. A head coaching job at one of the premiere programs in the country is pretty dang rare, and if DT had a chance, I don't think the color of the singlet would matter one iota.
The mental gymnastics would be easy to deal with. Recruit top end talent, teach them to wrestle with a scoring mentality and let the fun begin. I doubt the transition would be very long.
That's simple, huh? Not so sure . . .
#GratefulMy question was more of how the Gable mentality has morphed into the Brands mentality. They are not nearly as similar as many would believe, IMO--but maybe it just is a question of talent. "Dominate if you can, otherwise, push a lot, keep it close . . ."
The difference between the Gable product and Brands product is huge. Gable guys wrestled to score and to dominate not just space but the opponent. The other difference is Gable guys would drive an opponent to the edge and then drive them off by shooting through them. Brands guys drive to the edge and continue to push off the edge without the shot. A fan base can scream "heeeees stallllin" all they want, but if their guy isn't taking frequent shots it's hard to get a quality official to just throw up a stalling fist.That's simple, huh? Not so sure . . .
My question was more of how the Gable mentality has morphed into the Brands mentality. They are not nearly as similar as many would believe, IMO--but maybe it just is a question of talent. "Dominate if you can, otherwise, push a lot, keep it close . . ."
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Solid take as usual, nerf, and I have the same question you raise about when/why the “Iowa style” changed.
But I don’t think this thread is about needing to take 2 steps away from a single L in a dual. That L is symptomatic of a longer and more concerning trend. I believe the Brands have it in them to sniff a national team title, tho it seems unlikely while Cael and TaTo are around. But even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.
I suspect TnT have job security unless/until they get consistently eclipsed by Iowa State. If/when that happens, I expect a seismic shift in attitudes in Iowa City.
But I don’t think this thread is about needing to take 2 steps away from a single L in a dual. That L is symptomatic of a longer and more concerning trend. I believe the Brands have it in them to sniff a national team title, tho it seems unlikely while Cael and TaTo are around. But even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.
I suspect TnT have job security unless/until they get consistently eclipsed by Iowa State. If/when that happens, I expect a seismic shift in attitudes in Iowa City.
Yes, it's that simple.That's simple, huh? Not so sure . . .
If DT were to get the job at Iowa there would initially be a couple kids capable of grasping and incorporating the mental changes, plus the incoming freshmen would be learning that thought process from day one.
Year two would see more of the established kids changing, plus DT's first recruiting class and his second group of freshmen.
DT would himself be morphing, learning and applying what he is learning.
By year three, the Iowa mentality/personality would be way more reflective of DT than TnT.
We were talking about that possibly yesterday and Cael told me that was possible, the only place he could never go was Minnesota.
RBY beats Desanto--a health Lee?????? Not out of the realm of possibilities but a very tall order
I think we just crossed a wire there--My point about DT taking the job wasn't related to the mentality discussion--I think for TnT to start "teaching a scoring mentality" is a very big leap, but DT probably has a better head start on doing that than about anyone at this point. That said, his actual coaching experience is pretty limited right now, so hiring him for a big time position right now seems a big risk. Give him a few years as an assistant, though, and . . . I completely agree w/ you.
I still think "who Cael is" as a person is sometimes undervalued as a part of the secret sauce. A lot of what we do as a team can be taught, but you also have to walk the walk in meaningful ways to be an effective leader. Having completely-trusted family as assistants w/ the same mentality also helps a lot, and would be difficult for even one of our greats to replicate.
What if Minnesota threw in all the Xanax sale proceeds?
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