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Too early...

RoarLions1

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2012
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Too early?? NIMO. Just for off-season conversation, I’ll offer the following – one man’s view of the upcoming season, using the 2019 NCAA Championship results as a basis. It’s simple. Just take the order of finish, remove the seniors, add in a few R12 and R16 guys (by seed), and voilà, out spits some numbers. All bias is removed, so potshots will not be accepted :):). Questions will (be accepted)…and if you feel I made a mistake, point it out, please.

Also accepted are conversation and input on where you believe returning redshirts or freshman starters or returning injured wrestlers will finish. Model is extremely simple, now that it’s done (Excel, using pivot tables), so tweaking by inserting wrestlers is easy.

Olympic Redshirts are an unknown, for the most part. I’ve removed Jaydin Eierman, as he’s announced already, but honestly that’s it. Was going to remove Kolodzik, but wasn’t sure, and as said, didn’t remove any others.

So here’s some facts, before sharing the NCAA points data. Ohio State loses the most points from the 2019 Championships. Here’s some top teams;
  • Ohio State – 60 Points (62% of total)
  • Penn State – 53 Points (39% of total)
  • Oklahoma State – 37.5 Points (45% of total)
  • Missouri – 29.5 Points (48% of total), actually 45 Points (73% of total) w/Eierman out
  • Rutgers – 29.5 Points (50% of total)
  • Nebraska – 19.5 Points (38% of total)
  • Michigan – 16.5 Points (26% of total)
  • Minnesota – 14.5 Points (27% of total)
  • Iowa – 2 Points (3% of total)

Iowa vaults to the top!! With only two points graduating, I’ll jump to the back of the book for a short exclamation that this logic, declared later in this post to be illogical, has Iowa #1!!

Seniors accounted for 32% of AA’s in 2019 (26 of 80). They’re gone, and everyone moves up. 157, 184, and 197 are the most-affected weight classes. 157 loses four, including the top three. 197 also loses four. 184 loses a whopping six, as all but Max Dean (2nd) and Dakota Geer (7th) depart.

The data shows Iowa with the most AA’s (seven), while PSU has six, and Nebraska five. Three teams have four (Oklahoma State, Pitt, and Minnesota), with a whole slew of others (15 teams) with two or three.

Drum roll, please. The spitted-out data says;

Iowa - 83
PSU - 81
Cornell - 52.5
Oklahoma St - 47.5
Nebraska - 46
Princeton - 41
Minnesota - 40.5
Michigan - 36
VaTech - 32.5
Ohio State - 32.5
Lehigh - 32.5
Pitt - 32
Wisconsin - 30
Arizona St - 30
Northwestern - 27

Keep in mind, this is without bonus points, and has not taken into account ANY of the following;

  1. True or RS Freshman for 2020, as only 2019 results were used. In 2019, there were 12 freshmen AA’s, by eligibility.

  2. Olympic RS departures for the year 2019-2020.

  3. Returning injured wrestlers not included. First one that comes to mind is Michael Kemerer.

  4. 2019 performance does not guarantee future results. Sure, what I did was fun, but wrestle the 2019 NCAA tournament 100 times, and you’d get 100 different results. Maybe most of the top guys, even all the top guys, will still be at/near the top, but order of finish, affecting predicted points, would surely change.

  5. Enjoy!
 
So many variables. Kem for Iowa and Shak for PSU would further separate us and Iowa from the field, assuming both are fully healthy, another of those pesky variables.
 
So many variables. Kem for Iowa and Shak for PSU would further separate us and Iowa from the field, assuming both are fully healthy, another of those pesky variables.
Shak moved into AA range in my model, with all the departures. Kemerer did not. Just fyi...
 
Any points at all at 125 this year could be huge in the team race. While I much rather would have a PSU wire-to-wire blowout, this looks like it is going to be a very FUN year.
 
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Shak moved into AA range in my model, with all the departures. Kemerer did not. Just fyi...

DearUnpleasantIrishsetter-size_restricted.gif
 
These rankings must be incorrect because I can’t find Rutgers in the Top 10.

Maybe that’s just an “initial” Top 15 .... not a “Perennial Top 10” :D
 
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Captain Obvious says ....

So much of the 2020 team race depend on if Spencer Lee and/or Mark Hall take Olympic RS.

Appreciate Roar’s data, but until those two make a declaration....

[P.S. also, Kyle Snyder may have set a new blueprint on how to take a “pseudo-OlyRS” back in 2016.
* Train at OTC the majority of the year.
* Wrestle the most important 3-4 team duals.
* Wrestle the post season in March. ]
 
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Too early?? NIMO. Just for off-season conversation, I’ll offer the following – one man’s view of the upcoming season, using the 2019 NCAA Championship results as a basis. It’s simple. Just take the order of finish, remove the seniors, add in a few R12 and R16 guys (by seed), and voilà, out spits some numbers. All bias is removed, so potshots will not be accepted :):). Questions will (be accepted)…and if you feel I made a mistake, point it out, please.

Also accepted are conversation and input on where you believe returning redshirts or freshman starters or returning injured wrestlers will finish. Model is extremely simple, now that it’s done (Excel, using pivot tables), so tweaking by inserting wrestlers is easy.

Olympic Redshirts are an unknown, for the most part. I’ve removed Jaydin Eierman, as he’s announced already, but honestly that’s it. Was going to remove Kolodzik, but wasn’t sure, and as said, didn’t remove any others.

So here’s some facts, before sharing the NCAA points data. Ohio State loses the most points from the 2019 Championships. Here’s some top teams;
  • Ohio State – 60 Points (62% of total)
  • Penn State – 53 Points (39% of total)
  • Oklahoma State – 37.5 Points (45% of total)
  • Missouri – 29.5 Points (48% of total), actually 45 Points (73% of total) w/Eierman out
  • Rutgers – 29.5 Points (50% of total)
  • Nebraska – 19.5 Points (38% of total)
  • Michigan – 16.5 Points (26% of total)
  • Minnesota – 14.5 Points (27% of total)
  • Iowa – 2 Points (3% of total)

Iowa vaults to the top!! With only two points graduating, I’ll jump to the back of the book for a short exclamation that this logic, declared later in this post to be illogical, has Iowa #1!!

Seniors accounted for 32% of AA’s in 2019 (26 of 80). They’re gone, and everyone moves up. 157, 184, and 197 are the most-affected weight classes. 157 loses four, including the top three. 197 also loses four. 184 loses a whopping six, as all but Max Dean (2nd) and Dakota Geer (7th) depart.

The data shows Iowa with the most AA’s (seven), while PSU has six, and Nebraska five. Three teams have four (Oklahoma State, Pitt, and Minnesota), with a whole slew of others (15 teams) with two or three.

Drum roll, please. The spitted-out data says;

Iowa - 83
PSU - 81
Cornell - 52.5
Oklahoma St - 47.5
Nebraska - 46
Princeton - 41
Minnesota - 40.5
Michigan - 36
VaTech - 32.5
Ohio State - 32.5
Lehigh - 32.5
Pitt - 32
Wisconsin - 30
Arizona St - 30
Northwestern - 27

Keep in mind, this is without bonus points, and has not taken into account ANY of the following;

  1. True or RS Freshman for 2020, as only 2019 results were used. In 2019, there were 12 freshmen AA’s, by eligibility.

  2. Olympic RS departures for the year 2019-2020.

  3. Returning injured wrestlers not included. First one that comes to mind is Michael Kemerer.

  4. 2019 performance does not guarantee future results. Sure, what I did was fun, but wrestle the 2019 NCAA tournament 100 times, and you’d get 100 different results. Maybe most of the top guys, even all the top guys, will still be at/near the top, but order of finish, affecting predicted points, would surely change.

  5. Enjoy!
Returning points from nationals:
PSU 104.0
Iowa 91.5
Cornell 64.5

This includes 2018 scoring for Conel, Kemerer, and Darmstadt.

Both teams should score more, though those additional points could largely cancel each other out -- for example, will Shak's improvement outpace Cassioppi's total points?

So we're in good shape, but not a ton of margin for injuries.
 
Captain Obvious says ....

So much of the 2020 team race depend on if Spencer Lee and/or Mark Hall take Olympic RS.

Appreciate Roar’s data, but until those two make a declaration....

[P.S. also, Kyle Snyder may have set a new blueprint on how to take a “pseudo-OlyRS” back in 2016.
* Train at OTC the majority of the year.
* Wrestle the most important 3-4 team duals.
* Wrestle the post season in March. ]
Tom Ryan is more likely to ban deadlifts and tanning, than Spencer Lee is to shirt this year (barring injury).

This is Iowa's best chance at a title since the Zain/Nico/Nolf/Nickal/Shak/Nevils shirt year. Spencer might do the Snyder Freestyle Schedule, but no way he's punting the team title.
 
Returning points from nationals:
PSU 104.0
Iowa 91.5
Cornell 64.5

This includes 2018 scoring for Conel, Kemerer, and Darmstadt.

Both teams should score more, though those additional points could largely cancel each other out -- for example, will Shak's improvement outpace Cassioppi's total points?

So we're in good shape, but not a ton of margin for injuries.

Conel had a nice tournament run, but is 58-19 overall and coming off of an injury. I like the addition for the opportunity to redshirt Beard, but I am not sure he can repeat his 3rd place finish. If he is able to roll over the summer I do like his chances of improving with the quality of wrestlers he will be working with from the PSWC. I am not being negative, just tapping the brakes a bit on the expectations until KC sees the mat again.
 
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Conel had a nice tournament run, but is 58-19 overall and coming off of an injury. I like the addition for the opportunity to redshirt Beard, but I am not sure he can repeat his 3rd place finish. If he is able to roll over the summer I do like his chances of improving with the quality of wrestlers he will be working with from the PSWC. I am not being negative, just tapping the breaks a bit on the expectations until KC sees the mat again.
You're right about Conel and maybe he caught lightning in a bottle in 2018. That said, freshman Conel also gave senior Morgan McIntosh fits at 2016 nationals, before Smack turned it up to 11.

I see Beard as already a likely top 5 finisher with bonus, which puts him more or less in range with Conel's 2018 totals.
 
Tom Ryan is more likely to ban deadlifts and tanning, than Spencer Lee is to shirt this year (barring injury).

This is Iowa's best chance at a title since the Zain/Nico/Nolf/Nickal/Shak/Nevils shirt year. Spencer might do the Snyder Freestyle Schedule, but no way he's punting the team title.

There is no way in tHR hell that Spencer shirts.

They have been building to this year since spencer took a call from TnT ...... and Coe college needed to fill an admin role :eek::eek::eek::eek:

If it isnt this year.....Katy bar the internet door
 
Conel had a nice tournament run, but is 58-19 overall and coming off of an injury. I like the addition for the opportunity to redshirt Beard, but I am not sure he can repeat his 3rd place finish. If he is able to roll over the summer I do like his chances of improving with the quality of wrestlers he will be working with from the PSWC. I am not being negative, just tapping the brakes a bit on the expectations until KC sees the mat again.
yep, and Moore got even with him in freestyle that year
 
In all likelihood this is going to be a very close NCAA tournament that may come down the final night between PSU and Iowa. I think Shak and Cassar coming back is a huge deal for PSU although more so that Cassar will be back. As much as I like Seth I doubt he's ready to compete for a title right away. Cassar is a semi-finalist at worst and the favorite to win it all at best so those points will be needed. At 184lbs I like Shak a lot and think he could win it all, but I also think we have young guys who could fight for a top three spot, too.

EDIT - Meant Seth, not Nick.
 
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In all likelihood this is going to be a very close NCAA tournament that may come down the final night between PSU and Iowa. I think Shak and Cassar coming back is a huge deal for PSU although more so that Cassar will be back. As much as I like Nick Nevills I doubt he's ready to compete for a title right away. Cassar is a semi-finalist at worst and the favorite to win it all at best so those points will be needed. At 184lbs I like Shak a lot and think he could win it all, but I also think we have young guys who could fight for a top three spot, too.
Agree that Nick Nevills is not ready to compete for an NCAA title, as he is out of eligibility. I would also tap the brakes a bit on Shak. He will be coming off ACL surgery and also needs to eliminate his occasional "WTF" type moments.
 
Nick Nevills would occupy a seat at NCAA's next year not a red or green line.

perhaps you meant to say Seth nevills?


In all likelihood this is going to be a very close NCAA tournament that may come down the final night between PSU and Iowa. I think Shak and Cassar coming back is a huge deal for PSU although more so that Cassar will be back. As much as I like Nick Nevills I doubt he's ready to compete for a title right away. Cassar is a semi-finalist at worst and the favorite to win it all at best so those points will be needed. At 184lbs I like Shak a lot and think he could win it all, but I also think we have young guys who could fight for a top three spot, too.
 
These rankings must be incorrect because I can’t find Rutgers in the Top 10.

Maybe that’s just an “initial” Top 15 .... not a “Perennial Top 10” :D

I was talking to a Rutgers season ticket holder on Saturday and told him I thought Rutgers was going to have a very rough season this year. He said they had a lot coming back.

So we started going through the lineup. 125? 141? 149? 157? 165? 174, ok, Grello is decent and a R12/lower AA guy. 184? 197? 285?

He said "yeah, it's going to be a rough season".

I'm still steamed that Goodale won some kind of "CotY" award for last season. How do you do from 10 guys in the top 8 at B1Gs in 2016 to 4 in 2019 and get an award in 2019? He actually probably deserved one in 2016.
 
I was talking to a Rutgers season ticket holder on Saturday and told him I thought Rutgers was going to have a very rough season this year. He said they had a lot coming back.

So we started going through the lineup. 125? 141? 149? 157? 165? 174, ok, Grello is decent and a R12/lower AA guy. 184? 197? 285?

He said "yeah, it's going to be a rough season".

I'm still steamed that Goodale won some kind of "CotY" award for last season. How do you do from 10 guys in the top 8 at B1Gs in 2016 to 4 in 2019 and get an award in 2019? He actually probably deserved one in 2016.
I was scrolling from bottom to top of this thread, and I happened to read the quoted post without seeing who posted it. As soon as I read “How do you [go] from 10 guys in the top 8 at B1Gs in 2016 to 4 in 2019 ...”, I thought: “it’s matter again, right?”

Rivals should have a “Name That Poster” mode/skin that hides poster names and then we get points for guessing the poster. :)
 
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tOSU is out of the equation this year. They went for broke last year, and sure enough, everything broke.
Not the way I see it. OHST lost three great ones, Tomasello, Bo Jordan, and Snyder from 2018, and still finished 2nd in 2019, exactly where predicted. Every wrestler nailed their seed except Pletcher (+1 place), and Martin (-2 places), which wouldn't have made any difference in the team finish (even if Martin finished first).

Agree they won't be in the 2020 mix, on paper...as they lose McKenna, M. Jordan, Campbell, and Martin, on top of their eligibility losses from 2018. Still, I really like what they've done. Recruited great, and while some team's fans beech about PSU's success, Ohio State has done exactly what one should do when chasing another team … get off your keister and get better … and Ohio State has. In fact, since and including 2015, tOSU is the only team in the country that has finished higher than Iowa every year. They'll take a hit this coming year, it appears, but will be back in the mix in 2021.
 
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