Total Matches on the Year
- Thread starter psuflyguy
- Start date
Are you worrying about individual record-book chasing, by any chance?
Otherwise, I'm not sure why having fewer matches than guys from other teams would be a bad thing. It is a long season, and most of PSU's roster seems to be in great shape relative to the field. Cael & Co. will have them ready when it counts, even if they miss a December tourney.
Otherwise, I'm not sure why having fewer matches than guys from other teams would be a bad thing. It is a long season, and most of PSU's roster seems to be in great shape relative to the field. Cael & Co. will have them ready when it counts, even if they miss a December tourney.
slushhead, it also could hurt in terms of seeding and/or the at-large process. (ask Josh Kindig about that one...)
Thanks for the other angle. I'd be frustrated if such a thought process were applied to established guys like Retherford, Nolf, and Nickal . . . and even if it were applied to less-established guys, I might still argue that a B1G schedule including the likes of Iowa and Ohio St -- and then likely a dual championship match vs OkieSt -- would more than make up for a relatively small number of matches. We wouldn't be talking about guys showing up at Natty's with 6-0 records and expecting high seeds, after all.
There's a reason I mentioned Kindig. He was 12-4 against Division I competition (with two of those losses being injury-default losses at Big 12's) going into NCAA's, with wins over #1 seed and eventual champ Drake Houdashelt, plus an also-seeded Mike Racciato, and his only competed losses being to Brandon Sorensen and Zack Beitz, and he failed to earn a seed (and according to my numbers, was the last man in that year).
Which year did Kindig's lack of matches cost him a better NCAA seed, as opposed to his W-L record, quality wins, and performance at the 4-5 team B12 tournament?
2011: 24-8 heading into nationals, B12 3rd, unseeded
2012: 15-8, B12 3rd, unseeded
2013: shirted
2014: 20-8, B12 2nd, #11 seed
2015: 13-4, B12 4th (did not wrestle), unseeded
Last time I checked, Kyle Snyder got a pretty good seed last year with fewer matches.
My take on Kindig's seeding that year was that he hadn't wrestled much in the weeks leading up to Nationals. Rather than his record (or low number of matches) costing him a seed, it was that he hadn't shown any sign of where he was at following the injury.
Jason Borrelli actually was on Flo Radio Live a couple of days after the selections and seedings were announced, and explained the process, and specifically stated that that wasn't true.
Well, I'm not going to claim to be an expert on the seeding process, but I don't know how anyone could not take the injury into account. It was what cost H. Stieber that year, too. If my opinion on that is wrong, then people aren't looking at all the criteria they should be. And as El Jefe pointed out, Snyder wasn't hurt in the seeding process by a lack of matches.
Either way, not going to Reno isn't going to result in PSU wrestlers having less than 20 matches. Maybe less than 30, but not less than 20. They have an otherwise solid schedule.
No way missing Reno affects any of our guys with their NCAA Seeding. Other complications (not wrestling much the rest of the season due to injury [let's hope that's not the case]) will...but that's just not fact-based right now. What am I missing...this discussion seems premature, and presumptive?
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Cael and team will adjust. No biggie in my book. Those looking for more competition will seek out an open tournament over the holidays.
Injuries are my biggest concern by far as well! While it really sucks that the team couldn't get to Reno, it was looking a lot more like the Keystone tournament than the Scuffle anyway
As already mentioned, at least we will have an injury free weekend!
Injuries are my biggest concern by far as well! While it really sucks that the team couldn't get to Reno, it was looking a lot more like the Keystone tournament than the Scuffle anyway
As already mentioned, at least we will have an injury free weekend!
The only question in my mind, is will it negatively impact some of the younger guys' development?
The schedule was a little light to begin with, but still, it doesn't seem like missing one tournament will negatively impact anyone's development.
The schedule was a little light to begin with, but still, it doesn't seem like missing one tournament will negatively impact anyone's development.
For the younger guys, the time spent in our room, will more than help them to be ready come March.
Slush, it's nothing to do with records. I'm just thinking fewer chances to walk out on a mat and work against a guy in a different singlet.
Bingo, except for a handful of duals (Iowa, tOSU, etc., the competition in our room is much tougher than they will face any where else.
OK, gotcha. As I mentioned previously, I think our guys will still have a good number of matches. Perhaps less tournament experience for those not as battle-tested at the college level, but we don't have many of those guys. And for guys like you mentioned (Retherford and Nolf), Nationals can't get here soon enough -- they'll dominate as long as they aren't injured, even if the tourney were tomorrow.
Some may see a silver lining in missing Reno in that the guys make it through another weekend without injury or getting banged up. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if they had to practice or put in extra work today to make up for the change in plans. I remember dreading cancelled Saturday meets back in HS, because that meant a Sunday practice, and we were going to get worked hard.
When Jason and Zain square off there is no place other than the Lion's room for that tougher competition.
While I agree wholeheartedly on the notion that the toughest competition (and work) is often in the room, I have always believed there is much to be said about the "real thing" out on the mat in front of a crowd. Conditioning oneself for the atmosphere/environment is important, too.
With that question in mind, I have to think the coaches were going to pick someone to go with for the rest of the season very soon. Perhaps Reno was going to be part of that decision. I don't know.
Showing either my laziness or lack of knowledge but is there a minimum number of matches for RPO?
Rasheed apparently was injured and wasn't going to Reno. Getting both (or at least the one who ends up the starter for BIGs) 17 matches is pretty important. With only 10 duals remaining that is actually important for all of our wrestlers. Lock Haven here we come.
Just an fyi for all...Rasheed was being held out for a skin disorder, not an injury.Rasheed apparently was injured and wasn't going to Reno. Getting both (or at least the one who ends up the starter for BIGs) 17 matches is pretty important. With only 10 duals remaining that is actually important for all of our wrestlers. Lock Haven here we come.
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Good investigative work El-Jefe!! Just me, I'm not sure how the Kindig situation applies to our guys. The B12 that year only had 4 teams, so zero (0) auto-qualifiers, meaning every wrestler earned an NCAA Tournament slot through at-large. Then there's his B12 Tournament results, injury defaulting twice to come in 4th. Real heart-breaker that JK had injury issues, again not sure how his match count (and situation) is material to our guys getting possibly 4-5 fewer matches by not attending Reno.
simple...SHP had a thought and it was carried out through his fingers to this board. Happens more than we think
dunk, it's often dangerous when I think, you know.simple...SHP had a thought and it was carried out through his fingers to this board. Happens more than we think
Kindig had no wins over qualifiers from the Big 12, so the fact that the Big 12 was screwed that year is irrelevant to this discussion. (actually, they were doubly screwed during the bid allocation process, but neither screwing applied to Kindig specifically, because he wouldn't have earned an automatic bid anyway, and he had no wins against wrestlers who eventually did qualify from the Big 12)
What is relevant, however, is the match counts. Penn State consistently wrestles some of the lowest match counts in the country to begin with. Nobody gives a dang about records from the Penn State guys, because under Cael Sanderson, they will rarely hit those benchmarks anyway! (to hit close to home, nobody who wrestles under Cael will ever get close to his 159 wins, for example, because it's highly unlikely that they'll get 159 matches over their four-year career) But what is relevant is that with only 25 matches prior to NCAAs, you're not especially likely to get a high enough number of quality wins to get a high seed. Fortunately (hopefully) the B1G schedule works in Penn State's favor this year (with them missing four teams that are not likely to be top-five teams in the conference, in Indiana, Purdue, and the Michigans).
Further, this isn't likely going to hurt the Prosecution*. This could hurt the rest of the guys, however, if not in terms of getting in, in terms of getting an appropriate seed. That's largely why Garrett Hammond failed to get in in (again) 2015.
I probably have more to say, but this has gone on long enough, and further, I have to go catch a flight home from that tournament we're talking about.
*-That's what I'm going to call Retherford, Nolf, and Nickal from now on on this board.
That's pretty good. Certainly is shorter than "the law firm of ..." It will be interesting to see if it is adopted by others.
It must be that everyone is wrestling fewer matches. Except for the 3 guys that were injured and missed part or most of last year (Gulibon, McCutcheon, and Nevills), the Penn State guys were middle of the road, at worst, when their match count is compared to the rest of the NCAA field in NYC.
I may have miscounted a few here and there, but only 11 wrestlers at 125 in NYC wrestled more matches than Nico. that means 21 wrestled fewer matches. Only 5, I believe wrestled more than Jordan, meaning 27 in the field wrestled fewer. And for Retherford, Nolf, Geno, Bo and Morgan, the numbers were 19, 13, 18, 14, and 16, for the number of guys in the field at their weight classes that wrestled more.
This year will be low, no doubt, just not so sure we're all that different than the rest of the country over the recent past.
Roar are you Russian? You seem to have access to data that others dont.
Assuming all teams wrestle at/near their full competition allowance, perfect health/no injuries, and no weather cancellations, then there are 2 ways to wrestle fewer matches:
1. Lose early and often in tournaments -- which is rarely our problem.
2. Win tournaments. For any given tourney, 3rd/4th guys wrestle at least 1 more match than the finalists -- and that's if they lose in the semis, even more matches if they lose earlier. Etc. The longer you stay in the winners' bracket, the fewer matches you wrestle.
I need a new metric, of "intended match counts" (basically, matches if wrestlers were to win the bracket). Because that number is likely to be lower for Penn State than for nearly any other program.
Roar's real name is Karnac. Oops...sorry for letting the cat out of the bag my friend.
The Prosecution is excellent -- happy to adopt that one.
May the Defense never rest, or else Pain will be the Order of the Court.
May the Defense never rest, or else Pain will be the Order of the Court.
