Why is Penn State lagging behind in women's wrestling?

[matter7172]

This was the topic that kept coming up over this past weekend. We were treated to outstanding women's wrestling (which has been the case for at least 6 years, honestly, at Final X and OTT). We hear that Audrey Jimenez, the high schooler 50kg finalist, is going to wrestle at Lehigh this fall. Women's wrestling is the fastest growing sport in the USA.

And we sit there wondering why PSU doesn't have a program and there seems to be nothing on the horizon. Isn't it way past time that Penn State gets its act together on this one and consolidate its position as the center of the wrestling universe in the USA? Why does it sit there watching the bus leave the station?

 

[Bob_Anderson]

Money

 

[Rip_E_2_Joe_PA]

Money

Yep.

 

[m.knox]

Money

If Iowa can afford it, so can we. Plus, the NLWC and the fact that it's a USA Wrestling RTC has to be a draw for any wrestler.

Mr. Matter is correct. There is no excuse given our current status.

 

[mcpat]

Penn State has 29 varsity sports. Iowa has 20. Iowa adding a sport to get to 20 total isn’t near the same as Penn State adding one to get to 30.

It’d be interesting to see where PSU ranks regarding the number of varsity sports it offers.

 

[Bob_Anderson]

If Iowa can afford it, so can we. Plus, the NLWC and the fact that it's a USA Wrestling RTC has to be a draw for any wrestler.

Mr. Matter is correct. There is no excuse given our current status.

That sounds good on the surface, but isn't reality for PSU's athletic department.

The balance sheet on any women's sport is ugly. Just check the latest NCAA report released in January for the 2022-2023 year. PSU is much closer to cutting sports, not adding another cost center to the athletic department.

If somebody stepped up and fully funded a women's wrestling team for the next decade plus (like Stanford wrestling), then yes, it would be added.

 

[m.knox]

Penn State has 29 varsity sports. Iowa has 20. Iowa adding a sport to get to 20 total isn’t near the same as Penn State adding one to get to 30.

It’d be interesting to see where PSU ranks regarding the number of varsity sports it offers.

Fair enough. Both you and Mr. Anderson make good points. Made myself laugh there with The Matrix reference.

 

[WildTurk]

Penn State has 29 varsity sports. Iowa has 20. Iowa adding a sport to get to 20 total isn’t near the same as Penn State adding one to get to 30.

It’d be interesting to see where PSU ranks regarding the number of varsity sports it offers.

Penn State not having women's wrestling has nothing to do with Iowa.

Or lack of money..

Time to make that change and support the girls. The elite women wrestlers of the world are just entertaining to watch as the men imo.

 

[Bob_Anderson]

Penn State not having women's wrestling has nothing to do with Iowa.

Or lack of money..

Time to make that change and support the girls. The elite women wrestlers of the world are just entertaining to watch as the men imo.

Do you know the real reason Iowa added women's wrestling?

 

[m.knox]

Time to make that change and support the girls. The elite women wrestlers of the world are just entertaining to watch as the men imo.

Couldn't agree more. Watching Kennedy Blades upset Adeline Gray was as powerful as Brooks and Taylor (though I was less invested for sure).

 

[PSUer1989]

Penn State not having women's wrestling has nothing to do with Iowa.

Or lack of money..

Time to make that change and support the girls. The elite women wrestlers of the world are just entertaining to watch as the men imo.

So you’re stepping up to fund it?! Thanks!! PSU already has more women’s sports than Iowa without wrestling. Since they are not obligated under Title IX (as Iowa was) to add a sport, they will not unless it is funded ahead of time. That was how PSU started both men’s and women’s ice hockey.

With $100 million push from Terry Pegula, Penn State growing into ‘Hockey Valley’

In the shadow of Beaver Stadium stands a sparkling rink that Terry Pegula hopes will be the incubator for the growth of hockey in Pennsylvania.

www.yorkdispatch.com

 

[Bob_Anderson]

So you’re stepping up to fund it?! Thanks!! PSU already has more women’s sports than Iowa without wrestling. Since they are not obligated under Title IX (as Iowa was) to add a sport, they will not unless it is funded ahead of time. That was how PSU started both men’s and women’s ice hockey.

Yep, added because of a Title IX lawsuit

University Of Iowa Establishes Women's Wrestling As Part Of Title IX Lawsuit Settlement

The University of Iowa has reached a settlement agreement for a Title IX lawsuit brought by female athletes who alleged the school isn’t providing equal access in sports. As part of the agreement, the UI Athletics Department is creating a women's wrestling program, a decision the athletic...

www.iowapublicradio.org

 

[PAHURDLER]

Iowa literally had to be sued into starting women’s wrestling.

 

[voltz99]

If Iowa can afford it, so can we. Plus, the NLWC and the fact that it's a USA Wrestling RTC has to be a draw for any wrestler.

Mr. Matter is correct. There is no excuse given our current status.

No thanks.

 

[Agoodnap]

Penn State is about $200,000,000 in the red this year with no concrete plan to get financially healthy.

 

[ggcpsu]

Penn State is about $200,000,000 in the red this year with no concrete plan to get financially healthy.

while this is true, it's not the same budget whatsoever.

 

[bourbon n blues]

Penn State not having women's wrestling has nothing to do with Iowa.

Or lack of money..

Time to make that change and support the girls. The elite women wrestlers of the world are just entertaining to watch as the men imo.

Then write a check. I find women’s sports unwatchable and have zero interest in them.

 

[bourbon n blues]

Couldn't agree more. Watching Kennedy Blades upset Adeline Gray was as powerful as Brooks and Taylor (though I was less invested for sure).

Hard no, I find women’s sports to be uninteresting.

Unfortunately the free market seems to agree.

 

[Agoodnap]

while this is true, it's not the same budget whatsoever.

Please explain.

 

[Lyons212]

Please explain.

The athletic department has its own budget. The athletic department actually pays PSU to for the allocated scholarships.

Reality is, most college sports lose money. Just about every women's college sports team losses money. There are a few exceptions, Iowa's womens hoops team probably turn a profit this year because of Caitlin Clark. It will lose money next year. Most women's sports in college have very few spectators. PSU women's hoops averages about 2,500 fans a game, womens hockey about 1,000, womens soccer about a 1,000.

Adding womens wrestling means adding another sport that will lose seven figures and have about 200 people attending it matches. It would be nice, reality is it doesn't make sense.

 

[mhlarch]

As listed above there are many larger, key issues, but could workout space be an issue too? Probably too simplistic of a reason, just curious. PSU wrestling facilities are nice, but don't seem large enough to host two full college programs plus the NLWC.

Maybe a good starting point would be adding more women to the NLWC. How many do we have now? Another question. A few years ago there was an exhibition held at PSU (on an upstart streaming service....the name escapes me). Helen wrestled in that event and I seem to recall she was affiliated with the NLWC then all of a sudden she was with the Sunkist Kids. Anyone know why.....maybe a misunderstanding on my part, or my faulty memory.

 

[Pitchfork Rebel]

This was the topic that kept coming up over this past weekend. We were treated to outstanding women's wrestling (which has been the case for at least 6 years, honestly, at Final X and OTT). We hear that Audrey Jimenez, the high schooler 50kg finalist, is going to wrestle at Lehigh this fall. Women's wrestling is the fastest growing sport in the USA.

And we sit there wondering why PSU doesn't have a program and there seems to be nothing on the horizon. Isn't it way past time that Penn State gets its act together on this one and consolidate its position as the center of the wrestling universe in the USA? Why does it sit there watching the bus leave the station?

In a world where public outrage is the highest moral virtue, some facts:

Basketball, much to my misery is a far more popular sport than wrestling. So why does the WNBA exist basically due to its subsidization by the NBA.

Carl Menger Explains Caitlin Clark’s “Low” Rookie Salary and Her Monetized Popularity | Mises Institute

Contra Joe Biden, this is not about pay “discrimination” or equity or a nefarious plot by team owners to cheat women. This is just consumer sovereignty in

mises.org

The interest is wrestling is a mile deep, but a foot wide. It's been noted here that viewership for wrestling has been declining. Programs have been dropped in recent years and we're all aware of Griffith's NC saving Stanford's program.

Schools, in general having declining enrollment, not only from the birth rate that plummeted from about 2005 on...

The Long-Term Decline in Fertility—and What It Means for State Budgets

When the economy takes a downward turn, couples often temporarily put off having children.1 But in the years following the Great Recession, births never rebounded. Instead, fertility has largely continued to follow a downward trajectory across the country, falling to a record low in 2020.2 State...

www.pewtrusts.org

But because of toolbelt generation:

https://www.npr.org/2024/04/22/1245858737/gen-z-trade-vocational-schools-jobs-college

And when it comes down to it, onine virtue signaling is cheap; the reality is a portion of people who watch men's wrestling will watch womens'. Of that, a smaller portion will attend matches.


And then there's girls like my niece who despite being athletic enough to be a starter on her field hockey team, thought wrestling was "gross".

 

[Bob_Anderson]

The athletic department has its own budget. The athletic department actually pays PSU to for the allocated scholarships.

Reality is, most college sports lose money. Just about every women's college sports team losses money. There are a few exceptions, Iowa's womens hoops team probably turn a profit this year because of Caitlin Clark. It will lose money next year. Most women's sports in college have very few spectators. PSU women's hoops averages about 2,500 fans a game, womens hockey about 1,000, womens soccer about a 1,000.

Adding womens wrestling means adding another sport that will lose seven figures and have about 200 people attending it matches. It would be nice, reality is it doesn't make sense.

According to the 2022-2023 NCAA report, Iowa women's basketball was $4.4 million in the hole, so doubt they were digging out of that hole this past year.

 

[HCS3Seasons]

Money

So, PSU can't afford it, but Lock Haven is flush with cash?

 

[Bob_Anderson]

So, PSU can't afford it, but Lock Haven is flush with cash?

I have no information about the state of Lock Haven's athletic department and how they allocate funds.

 

[Pitchfork Rebel]

So, PSU can't afford it, but Lock Haven is flush with cash?

Hardly. LH, Mansfield and Bloom are now flavors of "Commonwealth University".

And desperate for students.

Note the new scholarships.

Lock Haven University

lockhaven.edu

 

[Agoodnap]

The athletic department has its own budget. The athletic department actually pays PSU to for the allocated scholarships.

Reality is, most college sports lose money. Just about every women's college sports team losses money. There are a few exceptions, Iowa's womens hoops team probably turn a profit this year because of Caitlin Clark. It will lose money next year. Most women's sports in college have very few spectators. PSU women's hoops averages about 2,500 fans a game, womens hockey about 1,000, womens soccer about a 1,000.

Adding womens wrestling means adding another sport that will lose seven figures and have about 200 people attending it matches. It would be nice, reality is it doesn't make sense.

Did you ever run an organization with several or even many sub-organizations within each with their own budget? They all add up to your budget.

 

[WildTurk]

Then write a check. I find women’s sports unwatchable and have zero interest in them.

Sounds about right.

 

[Pitchfork Rebel]

Did you ever run an organization with several or even many sub-organizations within each with their own budget? They all add up to your budget.

People don't understand a budget is a plan, unless it's an appropriation against a legal limit.

Those who had the great teachers at Penn State a few decades ago know money is fungible.

 

[tullfan68]

This was the topic that kept coming up over this past weekend. We were treated to outstanding women's wrestling (which has been the case for at least 6 years, honestly, at Final X and OTT). We hear that Audrey Jimenez, the high schooler 50kg finalist, is going to wrestle at Lehigh this fall. Women's wrestling is the fastest growing sport in the USA.

And we sit there wondering why PSU doesn't have a program and there seems to be nothing on the horizon. Isn't it way past time that Penn State gets its act together on this one and consolidate its position as the center of the wrestling universe in the USA? Why does it sit there watching the bus leave the station?

don't you have to have a team first before you can lag!

 

[manatree]

So you’re stepping up to fund it?! Thanks!! PSU already has more women’s sports than Iowa without wrestling. Since they are not obligated under Title IX (as Iowa was) to add a sport, they will not unless it is funded ahead of time. That was how PSU started both men’s and women’s ice hockey.

With $100 million push from Terry Pegula, Penn State growing into ‘Hockey Valley’

In the shadow of Beaver Stadium stands a sparkling rink that Terry Pegula hopes will be the incubator for the growth of hockey in Pennsylvania.

www.yorkdispatch.com

Actually, the Pegula’s did not pay for the women’s hockey program, Penn State had to come up with the money.

 

[Sullivan]

Actually, the Pegula’s did not pay for the women’s hockey program, Penn State had to come up with the money.

Correct. But, the Pegula's did pay for the $89 million facility the men and women play at.

And Laura Pegula funded a scholarship for the women's Center position.

 

[Callthestall]

Obviously money and budget is part of the situation. That will eventually not be an major issue.
I also think the PIAA has been slower than other states to include female wrestling. Now with the PIAA on board with it, I think it will have a domino effect within the state.

 

[creamery freak]

Casey Cunningham was asked about PSU having a women's team at the Feb PSWC social this winter. Below is his answer from the Casey' s Nuggets of Gold thread.

Question about having a PSU women’s wrestling team? Casey answered that PSU is currently offering 31 sports to student athletes, and adding another will take some work. He stated that his daughter is 10 years old and wrestles, so he’s definitely in favor of it. Casey said the Iowa coaches sent his daughter an Iowa women’s wrestling shirt, and he threw it away. That brought a big roar from the crowd. Someone else asked who the women spar with and he said with each other and that the lighter guys in the room will work with them when they can. They also workout with Lock Haven's women’s team .

 

[PSUer1989]

Actually, the Pegula’s did not pay for the women’s hockey program, Penn State had to come up with the money.

Without the Petula’s donation, there would be no women’s (or men’s) program…

“And while the gift wasn’t announced as a way to explicitly fund a women’s program, too, the Pegulas certainly paved the way for that to happen. From day one, starting a Division I women’s program was the goal as well, and the intention to do so was stated in the official announcement. And when it comes to the amenities at Pegula Ice Arena, there is no difference between what Penn State’s men’s and women’s teams receive. The locker rooms are identical to each other; this is not especially common in college hockey, particularly in the case of brand new facilities. Both teams use the same weight room, and their lounges have the same amenities”

The Pegulas, Penn State, and their past involvement in women’s hockey

The Pegulas, and PSE, have helped support women’s hockey at the college level for years. What’s that say about their future in pro hockey?

www.theicegarden.com

 

[m.knox]

Hard no, I find women’s sports to be uninteresting.

Unfortunately the free market seems to agree.

I watch PSU women's soccer and volleyball on BTN. Excellent competition. I would definitely watch PSU women's wrestling.

 

[matter7172]

Couldn't agree more. Watching Kennedy Blades upset Adeline Gray was as powerful as Brooks and Taylor (though I was less invested for sure).

Especially after Blades crashed out so hard after starting out great in Final X last year.

I've been to several Final X events and the OTTs over the last 7 years that have been mixed mens/womens freestyle and the women's portion has been just as entertaining as the men's - at times more so. If I were faced with a choice of seeing women's locally (i.e. within a drivable/public transportational distance) and traveling out of town (having to obtain lodging, etc.) for men's, I'd go for the women's. There are enough outstanding women wrestlers out there and coming up to make for a great event.

 

[El-Jefe]

The bottom line for any new varsity team is:

1. Some donor has to step up with a gigantic check to endow the program. Probably north of $20M, and that might be low.

With one big enough donor, only then can PSU start a fundraising campaign to fill in the rest needed to begin a new program.

2. Nothing will happen until PSU gets actuals (both revenue and cost) showing the effects of adding the 4 western teams. They may need a couple years of data to get a good picture, especially for Olympic sports costs.

While this might have little effect on an individual sport, it affects Athletics overall and thus the capacity to expand.

3. Until #2 is clearer, PSU will likely steer any big donors toward NIL instead.

 

[El-Jefe]

Penn State has 29 varsity sports. Iowa has 20. Iowa adding a sport to get to 20 total isn’t near the same as Penn State adding one to get to 30.

It’d be interesting to see where PSU ranks regarding the number of varsity sports it offers.

Iowa is really at 19.5 -- no football offense.

 

[Mat Burn]

Iowa is really at 19.5 -- no football offense.

Actually 19.66 Defense and Special teams count.