Willie's Comments on RBY and DeSanto match

[82bordeaux]

After the second time, obviously DeSanto couldn't continue and did default anyway, so that's the way it turned out in the end, but if he had been able to continue and won by less than 4, the match would have been potentially decided by stopping for an injury where the wrestler was in no danger of further injury but was in gave danger of being turned and losing big points, which seems wrong.

I think this is being misunderstood. Desanto couldn't continue because he used all of his injury time on the first stoppage. Therefore, when the match had to again be stopped, it was over. The coaches knew this and that's why they reacted as they did. They didn't throw in the white towel because they knew he was too badly injured. They knew the match was a medical forfeit and there was nothing left to do but get him off the mat and move on. I think that was the crux of his post match comments about him not being in that position before. As a wrestler, you need to know that if you go to that well again, the match is over. I think that is what TB meant.

 

[johnstownsteel]

Since we are talking about HR, I'm looking for suggestions on a new username there. I feel ashamed that this last one didn't produce a thread from moderator Mike "i have no balls" Zeirath calling out the Hawk fans for being are a bunch of whiny crybabies that need to grow thicker skin. My failure probably doesnt deserve your help but I will promise to do better next time..

 

[Hotshoe]

Since we are talking about HR, I'm looking for suggestions on a new username there. I feel ashamed that this last one didn't produce a thread from moderator Mike "i have no balls" Zeirath calling out the Hawk fans for being are a bunch of whiny crybabies that need to grow thicker skin. My failure probably doesnt deserve your help but I will promise to do better next time..

So disappointed in you and I just put new shoes on this horse. How about Coldshoe? That would really F with them.

 

[El-Jefe]

Since we are talking about HR, I'm looking for suggestions on a new username there. I feel ashamed that this last one didn't produce a thread from moderator Mike "i have no balls" Zeirath calling out the Hawk fans for being are a bunch of whiny crybabies that need to grow thicker skin. My failure probably doesnt deserve your help but I will promise to do better next time..

IowaCitySteel

 

[johnstownsteel]

So disappointed in you and I just put new shoes on this horse. How about Coldshoe? That would really F with them.

LOL.

You're a *** damned Savage...

 

[funkisfun12]

Since we are talking about HR, I'm looking for suggestions on a new username there. I feel ashamed that this last one didn't produce a thread from moderator Mike "i have no balls" Zeirath calling out the Hawk fans for being are a bunch of whiny crybabies that need to grow thicker skin. My failure probably doesnt deserve your help but I will promise to do better next time..

KimuraKarma?

 

[Agoodnap]

Here's what Askren now has to say about RBY-AD

 

[johnstownsteel]

Lol. Funny stuff!

 

[82bordeaux]

KimuraKarma?

Does this remind you of anyone???

 

[WrestleEveryDay]

Quick question on RBY, after his match he almost seemed to take a victory lap around to a shared entrance where AD was leaving too. Was that the regular route for our wrestlers, I don’t remember them showing any other wrestlers leaving like that I remember. He was pumped up!
Did our wrestlers have that long route all day and was it a shared entrance for both teams? Seems strange.

There is only 1 tunnel to the floor at CHA.

 

[El-Jefe]

The ultimate troll job over there would be using the handle Sandusky and parroting the lunatic fringe of Ironbird, armbar, Vodka, weh8statehawk, etc.

 

[El-Jefe]

Does this remind you of anyone???

View embedded media

Rutgers?

 

[johnstownsteel]

The ultimate troll job over there would be using the handle Sandusky and parroting the lunatic fringe of Ironbird, armbar, Vodka, weh8statehawk, etc.

Thats brilliant. Im afraid im not talented enough to pull it off tho...lol

 

[PD4thespawn]

Since we are talking about HR, I'm looking for suggestions on a new username there. I feel ashamed that this last one didn't produce a thread from moderator Mike "i have no balls" Zeirath calling out the Hawk fans for being are a bunch of whiny crybabies that need to grow thicker skin. My failure probably doesnt deserve your help but I will promise to do better next time..

cherry 2000 er, 2010 i don't know where my mind was when first typing.

 

[82bordeaux]

There is only 1 tunnel to the floor at CHA.

Yeah...kinda like the video above. Right down to the quick exit.

 

[Hotshoe]

Jeezus, this is why he sucks. He still isn't correct of what happened. RBY's body was more off to AD's side, thus why both arms were on the leg. AD's leg was flat on the mat, not bent up and down at a 90° angle. If it wasn't, he wouldn't have been able to grab the foot the way he did. Furthermore, AD's hips were pressed against his knees, not up in the air like in this video. So instead of just shutting the hell up, he posts complete nonsense without having even seen the footage. HR is gonna love him. They built their castle on his bs.

 

[bigs22]

The ultimate troll job over there would be using the handle Sandusky and parroting the lunatic fringe of Ironbird, armbar, Vodka, weh8statehawk, etc.

I’m like 80% sure there’s already one of those over there, but I won’t out them if that is the case, because no one else has called it into question yet. They were slipping a couple weeks back and I was at 99%, but seem to have gained a renewed vigor. Either that or he is just truly insane.

 

[Conewago]

Enjoy Willie Saylor"s comments on RBY and his match with DeSanto he posted just on Rofkin tonight. Some honest commentary, which I happen to agree with.
"
"133 -


"As far as the wrestling itself I thought it was all RBY. The injury occurred so early that it's difficult to know if this is a match that replicates itself or if DeSanto was 'off' the entire time thereafter. But I'll say this - these two guys WILL get in that position again. Watch Daton-Gilman, who always get in the head-to-feet position. Watch Bull-Cenzo, who always end up in upper body. RBY will find that angle and cradle again. It wasn't coincidence that he found it twice this dual. Furthermore, I don't think it's entirely a match up thing. It is in the sense that DeSanto shoots so often which provides RBY that many more opportunities in that position. But RBY is just flat out amazing at chasing the corner to the cradle position. He did a very similar thing to Ridge Lovett last week."


"I'll go as far as saying RBY will be my pick next time they hit. I'll also say RBY is a finalist contender now."

"Andrew Spey (Flo) said he's not counting the RBY-DeSanto match which is mind boggling."

RBY dominated the action in this match. By dominating the neutral action especially, he forced/baited DeSanto into his weak left handed sweep single, which RBY countered for near side cradles. Even without the injuries, he probably wins it with ease.

 

[Conewago]

A Penn Stater's reaction or non-reaction to Sandusky poo flinging does not change the fact that it is poo flinging.

Some people will always resort to that poo flinging, and it says more about them than us.

That, plus most people (including PSU fans) who make comments about the Sandusky scandal don't have the faintest grasp of law and legal procedure.

 

[Psalm 1 guy]

Sorry for the length of this post, but here are some of the rules from the current NCAA wrestling rules book that address injury timeouts and the awarding of nearfall points as related to the taking of the injury timeout.

Injury Timeout — Imminent Scoring. If there was imminent scoring when an injury timeout was called, the referee shall charge an injury timeout to the injured competitor and award the applicable points.

Unethical Timeouts. Taking an injury timeout for a non-injury situation is unethical. A competitor who indicates an injury for the purpose of preventing scoring or being pinned must be charged with an injury timeout.

Second Nonbleeding Timeout. Once the second nonbleeding injury timeout is taken by a wrestler at any time, the non-injured wrestler is awarded one point.

Art. 20. Second Nonbleeding Timeout — Conclusion of Third Period or Second Tiebreaker. If the second nonbleeding injury timeout is taken at the conclusion of the third period or second tiebreaker period, the opponent shall be awarded one point at the beginning of the sudden-victory period, and the match is concluded and scored as a win in the sudden-victory period.

Art. 21. Second Nonbleeding Timeout during Sudden-Victory Period. If the second nonbleeding injury timeout is taken anytime during the sudden-victory period, the opponent shall be awarded one point and the match is concluded.

Third Nonbleeding Timeout. The first wrestler to request a third nonbleeding injury timeout will terminate the match. The non-injured wrestler shall be declared the winner by injury default.

Art. 7. Injury — Imminent Near Fall. When a pinning combination is executed legally by the offensive wrestler and a near fall is imminent, but the defensive wrestler is injured, indicates an injury or has excessive bleeding before a near-fall criterion is met, action will be stopped and a two-point near fall shall be awarded to the offensive wrestler.

Art. 8. Injury — After Two-Point Near Fall Criterion Met. When a criteria for a two-point near fall is met and the match is stopped for an injury, the defensive wrestler indicates an injury or has excessive bleeding, action will stop and a four point near fall shall be awarded to the offensive wrestler.

Art. 9. Injury — After Four-Point Near Fall Criterion Met. When a criteria for a four-point near fall are met, and a match is stopped for an injury, the defensive wrestler indicates an injury or has excessive bleeding, an additional point shall be awarded to the offensive wrestler.

 

[86PSUPaul]

.
Injury Timeout — Imminent Scoring. If there was imminent scoring when an injury timeout was called, the referee shall charge an injury timeout to the injured competitor and award the applicable points.

Art. 7. Injury — Imminent Near Fall. When a pinning combination is executed legally by the offensive wrestler and a near fall is imminent, but the defensive wrestler is injured, indicates an injury or has excessive bleeding before a near-fall criterion is met, action will be stopped and a two-point near fall shall be awarded to the offensive wrestler.

So, by the rule book, RBY should have been up 4-0 at the restart after the first "injury" time. Terrible ref!

 

[WildTurk]

Since we are talking about HR, I'm looking for suggestions on a new username there. I feel ashamed that this last one didn't produce a thread from moderator Mike "i have no balls" Zeirath calling out the Hawk fans for being are a bunch of whiny crybabies that need to grow thicker skin. My failure probably doesnt deserve your help but I will promise to do better next time..

StallCampCounselor banned already?

 

[82bordeaux]

So, by the rule book, RBY should have been up 4-0 at the restart after the first "injury" time. Terrible ref!

That one could probably be debated. In the first stoppage, one could say that when AD screamed it was prior to the cradle being locked up. The time it took to stop wrestling was the time it took to lock up the cradle. I'm not saying it is without a doubt the case, but it could be argued within reason. The second one should have resulted in points if it were not rendered moot by the match going to injury forfeit. We'll never know what would have been done there...but I have a feeling

 

[slushhead]

Thank you. I've watched this film a minimum of 20 times and slowed it down on my tv. Toes are at the end of the foot and his hand never goes there. Like you said, he grabs the side of the foot.

We're seeing the same thing but describing it differently. I rewatched one of the rear angles from the BTN broadcast, and once RBY secures the ankle with both hands, he reaches down for the foot with his left hand, his palm to the ball of the foot, wraps the fingers over the side of the foot, and pulls. Now, in that wrapping of the fingers, at least his pinky and ring fingers cover/grasp the corresponding toes, while the others are over the metatarsals.

Based on a review of the latest rule
book, I'm not seeing anything about grabbing of toes in and of itself that can be construed as illegal. The applicable question in RBY's pulling of the foot (with some toes included) is as Askren described it -- i.e., whether he elevated the foot while doing so to force the limb (knee joint) beyond its normal limits of movement (see pg. 51, paragraph 1; and pg. 84, illustration 31 for twisting knee lock). It was pulled laterally, which one might argue allows the opponent the option of shifting his hips to accomodate the pressure, and it was therefore not called illegal.

Now, I'm not doubting that DeSanto felt pain, thought he was injured, and/or was indeed injured, but I just can't see an argument for an illegal move based on examples provided in the rule book.

 

[slushhead]

Since we are talking about HR, I'm looking for suggestions on a new username there. I feel ashamed that this last one didn't produce a thread from moderator Mike "i have no balls" Zeirath calling out the Hawk fans for being are a bunch of whiny crybabies that need to grow thicker skin. My failure probably doesnt deserve your help but I will promise to do better next time..

Are you able to take credit for the "DingleKringle" handle that showed up there this afternoon? I don't normally like these things, but that one admittedly cracked me up.

 

[Hotshoe]

We're seeing the same thing but describing it differently. I rewatched one of the rear angles from the BTN broadcast, and once RBY secures the ankle with both hands, he reaches down for the foot with his left hand, his palm to the ball of the foot, wraps the fingers over the side of the foot, and pulls. Now, in that wrapping of the fingers, at least his pinky and ring fingers cover/grasp the corresponding toes, while the others are over the metatarsals.

Based on a review of the latest rule
book, I'm not seeing anything about grabbing of toes in and of itself that can be construed as illegal. The applicable question in RBY's pulling of the foot (with some toes included) is as Askren described it -- i.e., whether he elevated the foot while doing so to force the limb (knee joint) beyond its normal limits of movement (see pg. 51, paragraph 1; and pg. 84, illustration 31 for twisting knee lock). It was pulled laterally, which one might argue allows the opponent the option of shifting his hips to accomodate the pressure, and it was therefore not called illegal.

Now, I'm not doubting that DeSanto felt pain, thought he was injured, and/or was indeed injured, but I just can't see an argument for an illegal move based on examples provided in the rule book.

Yeah, I'm with you. RBY gave two tugs and the foot was on the mat, he was not lifting it up in the air. He only did that once the foot and leg were free. I don't ever go after a athlete, particularly regarding an injury. Ben is just way off base and irresponsible making absolute statements when he couldn't see it. Now of course he's an idiot on HR once again because he changed his opinion.

 

[Crusher1950]

Tell it like it is, DeSanto was about to get pinned and the only way out was to cry about it. There it is hook, line and sinker!!

 

[slushhead]

Tell it like it is, DeSanto was about to get pinned and the only way out was to cry about it. There it is hook, line and sinker!!

I have every confidence it was more complex than that.

 

[Hotshoe]

Tell it like it is, DeSanto was about to get pinned and the only way out was to cry about it. There it is hook, line and sinker!!

That's just a bush league comment. Desanto is a damn good, tuff wrestler.

 

[Crusher1950]

He was going down Hotshoe and everyone knew it

 

[Hotshoe]

Yeah, he was going down, doesn't mean he wasn't injured.

 

[Kale_yeah]

Here's what Askren now has to say about RBY-AD

View embedded media

Wow ammiting your wrong, would never make it as a internet poster. This was sarcasm

 

[1032004]

That one could probably be debated. In the first stoppage, one could say that when AD screamed it was prior to the cradle being locked up. The time it took to stop wrestling was the time it took to lock up the cradle. I'm not saying it is without a doubt the case, but it could be argued within reason. The second one should have resulted in points if it were not rendered moot by the match going to injury forfeit. We'll never know what would have been done there...but I have a feeling

Agree with this. However the ref does appear to be signaling “still neutral” when stopping it the second time.

 

[82bordeaux]

Agree with this. However the ref does appear to be signaling “still neutral” when stopping it the second time.

He awarded the 2 for the second cradle. The score was 5-1 at the time it was stopped.

 

[johnstownsteel]

Are you able to take credit for the "DingleKringle" handle that showed up there this afternoon? I don't normally like these things, but that one admittedly cracked me up.

No not me. I usually take a month or two off from HR after being banned.

 

[1032004]

He awarded the 2 for the second cradle. The score was 5-1 at the time it was stopped.

Ah you’re right. But he was still waving so seemed to be saying no nearfall at least

 

[dicemen99]

Or perhaps the handspring kick to the head attempt at NCAA’s. Hard to erase that image and subsequent departure from Drexel.

I’d say it’s less of a dirty wrestler and more of the struggle to deal with adversity and sometimes success.

On the rest of this topic of toes and ankles and illegal or potentially dangerous. At no point did RBY execute an illegal move. In addition, at no point did RBY execute a potentially dangerous move. And exactly what was the injury? Gibbons and Johnson failed to find one, at one point thinking there was an eye poke or head thing. There was no limp exactly 2 steps after the end of match handshake.

The other question about points awarded is somewhat tricky. The ref would have had to decide NF points were imminent to award the points. It appears he did not. Otherwise 2 would be awarded. In HS a tap out injury used to result in an additional point past the number of counts made in the NF position. So a NF 2 would be a 3 and NF 3 would be 4. With the rule changes to NF 2 and NF4 I do not know if that would make 3 and 5 but I suspect the tap out would still apply.

I saw you got some grief before, but not sure what over.

I suspect it is because you stated what is obvious to anyone who has seen ADS wrestle throughout his career - MS, HS, College - and is also understand by Tom Brands based on his comments.

Bottom line is that ADS "loses his mind" at times for various reasons. It pops up occasionally, definitely more than rarely and I guess you could say it has been consistent for going on at least 10 years now. It's no different at Iowa for the last 2 years, than it's been for the previous 8 that I've seen him (and I've seen an awful lot of him as my guy was always either one or two weight classes above him at all the tourneys growing up and in HS. In fact, my guys state finals was probably the least paid attention to match ever at Hershey, because it immediately followed Austin's incredible performance in 2017. Even I was caught up in it, lol). For the most part it has not bothered me - at least until the Micic thing - as, for the most part, it doesn't manifest into something that is going to injure anyone.

And it's not because he's "super intense." That's just the good manifestation of it. It is what it is. It's just something that you have to deal with if you want him on your squad. The Exeter coaches, who are good guys, did a great job of it, Brands & Co. seem to as well. The Drexel coaches just didn't want the hassle and it was causing team problems with the older guys because of some practice room issues. At Iowa, you've got a strong enough group to not let them derail them.

It's really not that big of a deal, just mostly the kind of thing you shrug your shoulders at. But call a spade a spade. The RBY match wasn't simply that he was seriously injured and RBY's cradle was exacerbated it. That's pretty much a joke.

The biggest joke of it all is the mental gymnastics that some practice trying to come up with explanations of it. Fortunately, that rarely ever happened in PA, really at any point in his career here. Everyone pretty much knew the deal.

And, no WT, this isn't because he wears an Iowa singlet. I've got more than one post on this subject here, BEFORE he transferred to Iowa.

 

[82bordeaux]

Ah you’re right. But he was still waving so seemed to be saying no nearfall at least

He was waiving that the match was over. Desanto was out of injury time and requested stoppage, thus forfeiting the match.
It was kind of like the Chris Weber calling timeout when Michigan had no timeouts left in the NCAA Finals.

 

[johnstownsteel]

It was kind of like the Chris Weber calling timeout when Michigan had no timeouts left in the NCAA Finals.

Something I never thought would be mentioned on a wrestling message board.

If Chris Weber has illusions that his blunder will one day be forgotten, I think its now safe to say that it wont..

 

[CJFisJoePaII]

That one could probably be debated. In the first stoppage, one could say that when AD screamed it was prior to the cradle being locked up. The time it took to stop wrestling was the time it took to lock up the cradle. I'm not saying it is without a doubt the case, but it could be argued within reason. The second one should have resulted in points if it were not rendered moot by the match going to injury forfeit. We'll never know what would have been done there...but I have a feeling

Except that the rulebook clearly states that an injury timeout cannot be used to avoid giving up points... If an Injury timeout is taken when a scoring opportunity is imminent, the points are to be awarded to the offensive wrestler.