Willie's Comments on RBY and DeSanto match

[82bordeaux]

Except that the rulebook clearly states that an injury timeout cannot be used to avoid giving up points... If an Injury timeout is taken when a scoring opportunity is imminent, the points are to be awarded to the offensive wrestler.

I understand that and it is technically correct, but what's the point? The match was over as soon as Desanto waved off to the ref. I guess he could have awarded 2 points to be put on the board prior to raising his hand. Had there been injury time left for Desanto, that would have been a huge issue.

 

[El-Jefe]

According to the scoresheet on Track, the ref did award a takedown on the 2nd cradle.

https://www.trackwrestling.com/seas...4864&twSessionId=fgcfkueznh&dualId=4960136132

 

[District four]

No not me. I usually take a month or two off from HR after being banned.

So I have a question. I was banned a couple months ago. Is that for life lol. Or do they lift it after a certain amount of time. I mean I don't miss the back and forth and not being able to respond keeps me out of trouble which makes the wife happy but man some of those turds are just dumb it's hard not to respond.

 

[johnstownsteel]

So I have a question. I was banned a couple months ago. Is that for life lol. Or do they lift it after a certain amount of time. I mean I don't miss the back and forth and not being able to respond keeps me out of trouble which makes the wife happy but man some of those turds are just dumb it's hard not to respond.

I would assume its for life.... If you're a PSU fan that is. I cant remember who it was but seem to recall someone a few years ago being banned but people bitched about it so they allowed him back. Why am i thinking it was...damn I cant remember his name....popular there....wanted to fight guys on a bridge.. lol

 

[johnstownsteel]

So I have a question. I was banned a couple months ago. Is that for life lol. Or do they lift it after a certain amount of time. I mean I don't miss the back and forth and not being able to respond keeps me out of trouble which makes the wife happy but man some of those turds are just dumb it's hard not to respond.

Did they message you on why you were banned?

 

[minnhawkeye]

I would assume its for life.... If you're a PSU fan that is. I cant remember who it was but seem to recall someone a few years ago being banned but people bitched about it so they allowed him back. Why am i thinking it was...damn I cant remember his name....popular there....wanted to fight guys on a bridge.. lol

johnstownsteel ya the bridge in Waterloo was with Sans and I think the other fellow was named Gable something they where at it and it was funny as heck..

 

[johnstownsteel]

johnstownsteel ya the bridge in Waterloo was with Sans and I think the other fellow was named Gable something they where at it and it was funny as heck..

Oh it was indeed!

 

[minnhawkeye]

Well they where serious don't they really like each other very well..

 

[nitlion6]

This is false particularly on the first one. The whistle was being blown at almost exactly the same time as the cradle being locked up which means he "cried out" prior to it being locked up.

I find it particularly funny with what you take exception with. So in other words HR will soon be collectively crying that RYB's cradle is stalling.

The first cry, there is no distress until RBY is locking up the cradle. If you want to argue that he cried out prior to the cradle being locked, go ahead. However there is no stress on DeSanto to cause a scream. I mean other than the recognition of what is about to occur.

The second cradle was less stressful, other than that exact moment of recognition.

 

[1032004]

He was waiving that the match was over. Desanto was out of injury time and requested stoppage, thus forfeiting the match.
It was kind of like the Chris Weber calling timeout when Michigan had no timeouts left in the NCAA Finals.

Hmm yes you are probably right here. Good analogy haha.

 

[1032004]

I find it particularly funny with what you take exception with. So in other words HE will soon be collectively crying that RYB's cradle is stalling.

The first cry, there is no distress until RBY is locking up the cradle. If you want to argue that he cried out prior to the cradle being locked, go ahead. However there is no stress on DeSanto to cause a scream. I mean other than the recognition of what is about to occur.

The second cradle was less stressful other that moment of recognition.

I don’t think RBY did anything illegal. But I do think the way Desanto’s foot was pulled (which of course happened before the cradle) caused the injury.

Edit: for the record I also think the stall call on RBY was bad.

 

[El-Jefe]

 

[District four]

Did they message you on why you were banned?

Nope when I tried to get on it said "you have been banned for trolling". I shit you not. Lol. And I was being confrontational but I was not trolling or picking fights. Sticking up for myself. In any event I got banned. Which I thought was ridiculous. They are thin skinned over there and a bunch of pansies good thing I didn't run I to them on a bridge lmfao

 

[Tom McAndrew]

As I've indicated in the past, I am friends with a few college refs. I happened to see one of them this past Monday, just a few days after the PSU - Iowa dual. This ref will be on the mat at NCAAs this year, so he does know his stuff.

I asked him about the RBY - DeSanto match, to get his views on the calls. He indicated that he was as confused as most fans by the 1st sequence. He indicated that he thought that 2 for the TD being awarded would have been valid, or 2 + 2 (TD and 2 NF) being awarded would have been valid.

He did stress that the key component is when did the ref notice something that concerned him regarding DeSanto. If the ref noticed something that he thought might be an injury, or heard something from DeSanto indicating a possible injury, it would be appropriate to take a few seconds to examine the situation, and then stop the match when the concern was verified. If the ref noticed something before control for a TD was established, but didn't stop action until just after control was established, due to checking on their concerns, it would be valid to award no points.

 

[CJFisJoePaII]

As I've indicated in the past, I am friends with a few college refs. I happened to see one of them this past Monday, just a few days after the PSU - Iowa dual. This ref will be on the mat at NCAAs this year, so he does know his stuff.

I asked him about the RBY - DeSanto match, to get his views on the calls. He indicated that he was as confused as most fans by the 1st sequence. He indicated that he thought that 2 for the TD being awarded would have been valid, or 2 + 2 (TD and 2 NF) being awarded would have been valid.

He did stress that the key component is when did the ref notice something that concerned him regarding DeSanto. If the ref noticed something that he thought might be an injury, or heard something from DeSanto indicating a possible injury, it would be appropriate to take a few seconds to examine the situation, and then stop the match when the concern was verified. If the ref noticed something before control for a TD was established, but didn't stop action until just after control was established, due to checking on their concerns, it would be valid to award no points.

Agree and disagree to some extent. Agree that a Ref could investigate for a "potentially dangerous" hold based on a wrestler crying out to him; however, this does not match what transpired in the RBY v AD match in two important regards imho: 1) the Ref would indicate a PD hold at the same time he stopped the match for injury time, and 2) AD does not indicate injury, nor does the Ref react to AD's scream, until after RBY is in the process of cradling him [i.e., AD does not indicate he is injured until after it is very clear that RBY has him cradled - he does not call out in pain while RBY is moving his leg legally by the ankle and does not do so until RBY has wrapped his arm behind his bent knee and it is extremely clear to AD that RBY is going to cradle him and there is absolutely nothing he can do about it].

Given the timing of AD's "distress call" and the lack of any concern from the Ref regarding what RBY was doing (i.e., no indication whatsoever by Ref that he thought anything RBY was doing was "Potentially Dangerous"), there is no way on earth the match should have been stopped without awarding 2 + 2 to RBY - the way it was called merely rewarded AD's actions which the rulebook clearly says is not to be done when there is zero basis for the injury (i.e., no "potentially dangerous" hold/situation to justify the call).

 

[1032004]

Agree and disagree to some extent. Agree that a Ref could investigate for a "potentially dangerous" hold based on a wrestler crying out to him; however, this does not match what transpired in the RBY v AD match in two important regards imho: 1) the Ref would indicate a PD hold at the same time he stopped the match for injury time, and 2) AD does not indicate injury, nor does the Ref react to AD's scream, until after RBY is in the process of cradling him [i.e., AD does not indicate he is injured until after it is very clear that RBY has him cradled - he does not call out in pain while RBY is moving his leg legally by the ankle and does not do so until RBY has wrapped his arm behind his bent knee and it is extremely clear to AD that RBY is going to cradle him and there is absolutely nothing he can do about it].

Given the timing of AD's "distress call" and the lack of any concern from the Ref regarding what RBY was doing (i.e., no indication whatsoever by Ref that he thought anything RBY was doing was "Potentially Dangerous"), there is no way on earth the match should have been stopped without awarding 2 + 2 to RBY - the way it was called merely rewarded AD's actions which the rulebook clearly says is not to be done when there is zero basis for the injury (i.e., no "potentially dangerous" hold/situation to justify the call).

He did start lunging in when RBY pulled the ankle, which could “indicate” that he may have thought that’s when DeSanto was injured (not even necessarily that anything was illegal or potentially dangerous). And if that’s the case then he was correct to award no imminent points. But no one really knows unless you ask the ref.

 

[El-Jefe]

He did start lunging in when RBY pulled the ankle, which could “indicate” that he may have thought that’s when DeSanto was injured (not even necessarily that anything was illegal or potentially dangerous). And if that’s the case then he was correct to award no imminent points. But no one really knows unless you ask the ref.

Except that's not what happened. The ref took two normal steps in when RBY pulled the foot -- indicative of wanting a closer look or being in position to stop if the foot pull continued. He didn't start lunging in until RBY had released the foot and hooked up the cradle.

if the ref determined an injury, when you say he did, then he was slow to move to stop it.

 

[1032004]

if the ref determined an injury, when you say he did, then he was slow to move to stop it.

It was like a second. He's not superman.

 

[RoarLions1]

In my half century of watching wrestling, I've seen some wrestlers knees get bent more than 90 degrees sideways. In comparison, I did not see anything even close to that in this bout, and nothing worth calling until DeSanto screamed (not quite a scream, really).

I'm not doubting for a second DeSanto was hurt, I believe he was. I also don't believe, for a second, that RBY would EVER do anything to intentionally hurt his opponent.

There are two ideas I have, one is speculation, one is related to the rules. First, the way this played out, is it possible there was something pre-existing? Could DeSanto's knee have been tweaked in the room, or prior bout, and this was aggravating a pre-existing minor injury?

Second, I feel for the referees. The whole range-of-motion language in the rulebook doesn't help when each and every wrestler is different. We've all seen body parts moved in directions that suggest double-jointedness, while others have joints that don't have close to that flexibility. I know there are guidelines, but I believe this wrestler-to-wrestler difference can be a bit problematic.

 

[TangSoo]

It was like a second. He's not superman.

As evidenced by his slow reaction to Nick Lee having Happel decked 3 times.

 

[Lyons212]

As Norman Dale would say "I know a home town referee when I see one." I was getting ready for the ref to call stalling on PSU for taking too long to get on the mat for the start of the match.

 

[1032004]

As evidenced by his slow reaction to Nick Lee having Happel decked 3 times.

Lol actually agree with you there. I think I only saw 2 though.

 

[NoVaLion2]

In my half century of watching wrestling, I've seen some wrestlers knees get bent more than 90 degrees sideways. In comparison, I did not see anything even close to that in this bout, and nothing worth calling until DeSanto screamed (not quite a scream, really).

I'm not doubting for a second DeSanto was hurt, I believe he was. I also don't believe, for a second, that RBY would EVER do anything to intentionally hurt his opponent.

There are two ideas I have, one is speculation, one is related to the rules. First, the way this played out, is it possible there was something pre-existing? Could DeSanto's knee have been tweaked in the room, or prior bout, and this was aggravating a pre-existing minor injury?

Second, I feel for the referees. The whole range-of-motion language in the rulebook doesn't help when each and every wrestler is different. We've all seen body parts moved in directions that suggest double-jointedness, while others have joints that don't have close to that flexibility. I know there are guidelines, but I believe this wrestler-to-wrestler difference can be a bit problematic.

Earlier in the match RBY knee was turned quite a bit further. Which leads me to conclude that your speculation about a prior tweak is probably correct.

 

[CJFisJoePaII]

He did start lunging in when RBY pulled the ankle, which could “indicate” that he may have thought that’s when DeSanto was injured (not even necessarily that anything was illegal or potentially dangerous). And if that’s the case then he was correct to award no imminent points. But no one really knows unless you ask the ref.

You're full of it - if the Ref stepped in for a closer look at what RBY was doing with AD's leg/ankle, and thought RBY's actions were causing a potential injury to AD warranting a stoppage, the Ref would have come in signalling "Potentially Dangerous" at the same time he blew his whistle calling for the stoppage. You don't know what you're talking about. If the Ref thought that RBY wasn't doing anything that would cause an injury (i.e., it was not a "Potentially Dangerous" situation), he would not have stopped the wrestling at that point without awarding RBY 2 + 2 as the rulebook CLEARLY states that the defensive wrestler is not permitted to use a claim of injury in a "non-potentially dangerous" situation as a means to avoid giving up points and stop his opponents imminent pinning combination (IOW, the rulebook clearly states that a defensive wrestler is NOT TO BE REWARDED for a claim of injury that prevents points when the other wrestler is executing a perfectly legal move and there is no existence of a "Potentially Dangerous" situation). If the official investigated what RBY was doing and found no basis for a stoppage (i.e., a "Potentially Dangerous" situation) as you claim, then the official would have been obligated under the rulebook to award RBY all potential imminent points resulting from AD's request for an injury stoppage in a "non-potentially dangerous" situation which served to stop action and thwart the points that AD was going to give up imminently. The Ref REWARDED AD's actions - the direct opposite of the way the rulebook says the Ref was supposed to rule in that situation! (i.e., when he has "no basis" for stopping the match for an "injury timeout").

 

[1032004]

You're full of it - if the Ref stepped in for a closer look at what RBY was doing with AD's leg/ankle, and thought RBY's actions were causing a potential injury to AD warranting a stoppage, the Ref would have come in signalling "Potentially Dangerous" at the same time he blew his whistle calling for the stoppage. You don't know what you're talking about. If the Ref thought that RBY wasn't doing anything that would cause an injury (i.e., it was not a "Potentially Dangerous" situation), he would not have stopped the wrestling at that point without awarding RBY 2 + 2 as the rulebook CLEARLY states that the defensive wrestler is not permitted to use a claim of injury in a "non-potentially dangerous" situation as a means to avoid giving up points and stop his opponents imminent pinning combination (IOW, the rulebook clearly states that a defensive wrestler is NOT TO BE REWARDED for a claim of injury that prevents points when the other wrestler is executing a perfectly legal move and there is no existence of a "Potentially Dangerous" situation). If the official investigated what RBY was doing and found no basis for a stoppage (i.e., a "Potentially Dangerous" situation) as you claim, then the official would have been obligated under the rulebook to award RBY all potential imminent points resulting from AD's request for an injury stoppage in a "non-potentially dangerous" situation which served to stop action and thwart the points that AD was going to give up imminently. The Ref REWARDED AD's actions - the direct opposite of the way the rulebook says the Ref was supposed to rule in that situation! (i.e., when he has "no basis" for stopping the match for an "injury timeout").

Umm, you don't know what you're talking about. It doesn't have to be a potentially dangerous hold for someone to get injured. Guys get injured in non-potentially dangerous holds all the time. And I never said this ref thought the situation was potentially dangerous. He only stopped it because Desanto was indicating an injury. If he felt that Desanto was injured before the cradle was locked up, then he was correct to not award any points. The ref certainly didn't think Desanto was faking as he immediately called for Iowa's trainer.

I could certainly see some refs awarding points there though (maybe just 2 for the TD, maybe an additional 2 for potential NF), I don't think either way would be wrong.

 

[papa_ed]

My immediate reaction was that AD screamed to avoid getting packed.......twice. IDK if I've ever seen RBY that aggressive, he was really going after it. Roar has a good point though regarding a possible prior injury and perhaps AD panicked, who knows other than DeSanto??

 

[82bordeaux]

My immediate reaction was that AD screamed to avoid getting packed.......twice. IDK if I've ever seen RBY that aggressive, he was really going after it. Roar has a good point though regarding a possible prior injury and perhaps AD panicked, who knows other than DeSanto??

I’d love to see him that aggressive tonight.

 

[AgSurfer]

Just curious. Has the ref said anything about what was going through his mind during that match? After duals or tournaments were finished and everyone was calmed down, I've asked refs about their reasons for making calls that I didn't like and they have usually been pretty open about it as long as I didn't ask them in a confrontational manner.

 

[Dwayne_Johnson33]

Just curious. Has the ref said anything about what was going through his mind during that match? After duals or tournaments were finished and everyone was calmed down, I've asked refs about their reasons for making calls that I didn't like and they have usually been pretty open about it as long as I didn't ask them in a confrontational manner.

I don't know how to timestamp a youtube video on my phone, but it starts at 8:15.

 

[CJFisJoePaII]

Umm, you don't know what you're talking about. It doesn't have to be a potentially dangerous hold for someone to get injured. Guys get injured in non-potentially dangerous holds all the time. And I never said this ref thought the situation was potentially dangerous. He only stopped it because Desanto was indicating an injury. If he felt that Desanto was injured before the cradle was locked up, then he was correct to not award any points. The ref certainly didn't think Desanto was faking as he immediately called for Iowa's trainer.

I could certainly see some refs awarding points there though (maybe just 2 for the TD, maybe an additional 2 for potential NF), I don't think either way would be wrong.

BS, now you're just making shit up to suit your needs! You first claimed that the Ref was concerned about what he saw when he stepped closer to the wrestlers several seconds prior to stopping the action (the Ref stepped forward and closer to the wrestlers BEFORE Desanto called out in pain). The Ref stepped closer when RBY grabbed AD's ankle - AD did not claim injury and call out in pain until RBY wrapped his arm behind his right knee as he locked-in the cradle. If, as you first claimed, the Ref was concerned about something he saw when he first stepped forward (which, again, was BEFORE Desanto claimed injury and called out to Ref) and that what he saw caused AD's subsequent call of pain & injury, the Ref absolutely would have indicated that the "Injury Timeout" resulted from a "Potentially Dangerous" situation as he stopped the action.

You're now trying to claim that AD was calling out in pain and signalling to the Ref that he was injured when RBY grabbed his ankle and the Ref first stepped closer to the wrestlers, which is complete triple and made-up bullshit.

 

[1032004]

BS, now you're just making shit up to suit your needs! You first claimed that the Ref was concerned about what he saw when he stepped closer to the wrestlers several seconds prior to stopping the action (the Ref stepped forward and closer to the wrestlers BEFORE Desanto called out in pain). The Ref stepped closer when RBY grabbed AD's ankle - AD did not claim injury and call out in pain until RBY wrapped his arm behind his right knee as he locked-in the cradle. If, as you first claimed, the Ref was concerned about something he saw when he first stepped forward (which, again, was BEFORE Desanto claimed injury and called out to Ref) and that what he saw caused AD's subsequent call of pain & injury, the Ref absolutely would have indicated that the "Injury Timeout" resulted from a "Potentially Dangerous" situation as he stopped the action.

You're now trying to claim that AD was calling out in pain and signalling to the Ref that he was injured when RBY grabbed his ankle and the Ref first stepped closer to the wrestlers, which is complete triple and made-up bullshit.

How do you know when Desanto called out in pain? Nothing is audible on the video, there may have been something that the ref saw/heard that no one else did, indicating that Desanto was injured. For example, Desanto seems to let go of RBY's leg immediately after the ankle pull, a possible indication of that's when he was injured. But the ref might not have stopped it immediately until he was sure that he was actually injured. And please don't say "then he's a horrible ref because he didn't have the safety of the wrestlers as the first priority," because kids make all kinds of weird noises in wrestling matches, and sometimes it's hard to determine when they're actually injured or not.

 

[CJFisJoePaII]

How do you know when Desanto called out in pain? Nothing is audible on the video, there may have been something that the ref saw/heard that no one else did, indicating that Desanto was injured. For example, Desanto seems to let go of RBY's leg immediately after the ankle pull, a possible indication of that's when he was injured. But the ref might not have stopped it immediately until he was sure that he was actually injured. And please don't say "then he's a horrible ref because he didn't have the safety of the wrestlers as the first priority," because kids make all kinds of weird noises in wrestling matches, and sometimes it's hard to determine when they're actually injured or not.

You've now gone back to your original claim - if the Ref saw something that RBY was doing when he first moved closer that he (the Ref) thought was related to AD's subsequent requests for an injury timeout, he would have indicated that the "Injury Stopage" was related to, and a result of, the "Potentially Dangerous" situation he was concerned about prior to his stoppage for a "Injury Timeout". The fact that the Ref never remotely showed any such concern dictates that he should have penalized AD for requesting the "Injury Timeout" while being put in a pinning combination (i.e., awarded RBY 2+2), instead the Ref did the diametric opposite of what the rulebook prescribes and rewarded AD for asking for injury time in that position.