165

[PSUisawesome]

After watching Chance the Logan Massa kick off there seasons in fist class form I started wondering if there was a weight class that can compete with 165 this year. 141 for example has:
Heil-Jack-Meredith-McKenna off the top of my head plus maybe Nick Lee that's at least four potential NCs. 125 maybe? Any suggestions?

 

[matter7172]

I think the overall quality at 141 is a lot less than that at 165. 165 is a loaded class.

 

[jschrantz]

After watching Chance the Logan Massa kick off there seasons in fist class form I started wondering if there was a weight class that can compete with 165 this year. 141 for example has:
Heil-Jack-Meredith-McKenna off the top of my head plus maybe Nick Lee that's at least four potential NCs. 125 maybe? Any suggestions?

Eierman, Yianni, Red. Ashnault at some point

 

[RoarLions1]

I think there's intrigue at every weight. Doesn't matter, to me anyway, which weight class is thought to be the toughest, or contain the most talent...much of it gets blown up at Nationals anyway.

 

[El-Jefe]

HWT -- obviously Snyder, but after him: Coon, Nevills, Ssquatch, Dhesi, Kasper.

174 -- Hall, Zahid, Jordan ... don't sleep on Lewis.

About Marsteller: encouraged by his results, not nearly ready to put him in the title contender list. Need to see him against better competition -- Wentzel was by far his toughest opponent at Clarion. Hopefully he'll get a better test this upcoming weekend at Journeyman.

 

[PSUisawesome]

HWT -- obviously Snyder, but after him: Coon, Nevills, Ssquatch, Dhesi, Kasper.

174 -- Hall, Zahid, Jordan ... don't sleep on Lewis.

About Marsteller: encouraged by his results, not nearly ready to put him in the title contender list. Need to see him against better competition -- Wentzel was by far his toughest opponent at Clarion. Hopefully he'll get a better test this upcoming weekend at Journeyman.

Hadn't thought of HwT because of Snyder but point taken. It's pretty fun to see depth at that weight. Lewis is a perfect wild card for 174. He looked like he was cutting a lot of weight at 165 I think his already painful top game will be that much more of a threat with ten more pounds of muscle. As far as Chance goes I think it could be really fun to watch him make a run after all he's been through. What's happening with 184?

 

[El-Jefe]

Hadn't thought of HwT because of Snyder but point taken. It's pretty fun to see depth at that weight. Lewis is a perfect wild card for 174. He looked like he was cutting a lot of weight at 165 I think his already painful top game will be that much more of a threat with ten more pounds of muscle. As far as Chance goes I think it could be really fun to watch him make a run after all he's been through. What's happening with 184?

PD3 pins his way through nationals.

 

[PSUisawesome]

PD3 pins his way through nationals.

Bold

 

[El-Jefe]

Bold

Then he pins his way thru 197 and 285 for good measure.

 

[PSUisawesome]

Then he pins his way thru 197 and 285 for good measure.

It would be an historic performance

 

[nitlion6]

Every weight has exceptionally talented kids. The HWT example was perfect. After the one in a billion Snyder, there are 5 or 6 extemely talented kids.
149 is like HWT. After Zain there are a handful of kids who without Zain's presence would be legitimate threats.
141 has probably the most disrespected 2-time champion followed by a long list of talented kids who many believe are threats to take that third championship away.
What it is about 165 is there are two champions in the bracket, same as 184, but 165 has Massa and now Chance.
Logan is perceived as the equal to Cenzo due to freestyle history and last year's semi-final battle and Chance is a kid all of us have imagined at one time or another as the world beater.

Every weight has exceptional talent, 165 just appears to have a little more cream at the top.

Looking forward to Thursday.

 

[nitlion6]

Then he pins his way thru 197 and 285 for good measure.

Has the Hodge committee held their vote on whether to give PD3 the Hodge whether he competes or not. I understand there was some confusion last year. Apparently PD2 and 3 thought the trophy was PD3's no matter what. They should get that straightened out before the season is in full bloom.

 

[purescurve]

Then he pins his way thru 197 and 285 for good measure.

then he wakes up

 

[jrd23psu]

I think 141 is probably the most interesting outside of 165 this year. Dean Heil is definitely the most disrespected 2x national champ in the country. He is such a defensive/scrambler that it will be interesting to see what happens with the new rule this year regarding NF points. He exposes his back a lot while scrambling. With how close he wins matches he is going to have to be able to either be offensive and finish his shots cleanly or find a way to scramble without exposing his back.

 

[nitlion6]

I think 141 is probably the most interesting outside of 165 this year. Dean Heil is definitely the most disrespected 2x national champ in the country. He is such a defensive/scrambler that it will be interesting to see what happens with the new rule this year regarding NF points. He exposes his back a lot while scrambling. With how close he wins matches he is going to have to be able to either be offensive and finish his shots cleanly or find a way to scramble without exposing his back.

Heil must adust to a new rule that will impact his past strategy.
Zain also will need to adjust to the new interpretation of who is stalling when top man has boots in and bottom man gets to his feet.
We are all certain Zain adjusts easily. I am uncertain why it appears difficult to imagine Heil adjusts rather easily also.

 

[nerfstate]

new interpretation of who is stalling when top man has boots in and bottom man gets to his feet.

Is there clear word on this then? I must've missed it.

 

[NittanyChris]

Heil must adust to a new rule that will impact his past strategy.
Zain also will need to adjust to the new interpretation of who is stalling when top man has boots in and bottom man gets to his feet.
We are all certain Zain adjusts easily. I am uncertain why it appears difficult to imagine Heil adjusts rather easily also.

The difference in expectations of each wrestler to adjust seems fairly easily explained.

IMO, Zain merely has to adjust to one specific situation. OTOH, Heil practically has to change his entire wrestling style. Not impossible, but not quite as easy an adjustment, to say the least.

 

[matter7172]

Zain also will need to adjust to the new interpretation of who is stalling when top man has boots in and bottom man gets to his feet.

I thought if the legs are in and the bottom man goes to his feet, it's stalling on bottom. If the top man puts in legs when the bottom man is already off his knees, it's stalling on the top man. Am I wrong about that?

Also, there was an application of the "Heil rule" at the NWCA event on Sunday, which was good to see. The offending party released his hold before the count expired, but the count was started.

 

[nitlion6]

The difference in expectations of each wrestler to adjust seems fairly easily explained.

IMO, Zain merely has to adjust to one specific situation. OTOH, Heil practically has to change his entire wrestling style. Not impossible, but not quite as easy an adjustment, to say the least.

I could be mistaken, but I don't recall Heil scrambling around on his back very much during nationals. Of course he spent nearly 7 minutes squirming around in that position during the match against Jimmy.

Rolling around on his back has not been something Heil has been dependent upon to succeed in a manner similar to Delgado's ankle leeching being quite necessary for his success.

I believe Heil moves through this season with few obstacles.

 

[nerfstate]

I thought if the legs are in and the bottom man goes to his feet, it's stalling on bottom. If the top man puts in legs when the bottom man is already off his knees, it's stalling on the top man. Am I wrong about that?

Well, we know how it gets interpreted at Gallagher-Iba, I guess the question is, will it be consistently that way now?

 

[nitlion6]

I thought if the legs are in and the bottom man goes to his feet, it's stalling on bottom. If the top man puts in legs when the bottom man is already off his knees, it's stalling on the top man. Am I wrong about that?

Also, there was an application of the "Heil rule" at the NWCA event on Sunday, which was good to see. The offending party released his hold before the count expired, but the count was started.

The leg rule was changed this year. When the bottom man gets to his feet, the top man is now always responsible for bringing (or at least attempting) the bottom wrestler to the mat.

 

[nitlion6]

Anybody that is interested the open mat has a nice read with accompanying video on the new rules for this year.

 

[RoarLions1]

Is there clear word on this then? I must've missed it.

Yes, showed up several times here when the new Interpretations Rulebook was released. The rulebook states;

"In all rear-standing situations, it is the offensive wrestler's responsibility to make an effort to return the defensive wrestler to the mat."

No longer matters when legs were in.

 

[matter7172]

Yes, showed up several times here when the new Interpretations Rulebook was released. The rulebook states;

"In all rear-standing situations, it is the offensive wrestler's responsibility to make an effort to return the defensive wrestler to the mat."

No longer matters when legs were in.

Not a good rule then. The bottom guy can force a stalling call by standing up when legs are in? It's like intentionally pushing an opponent out of bounds.

 

[PSUisawesome]

It turns out Michigan is having fun
http://www.flowrestling.org/video/1265497-massa-opens-up-about-the-cenzo-loss#.WgHR2YY77YU

 

[nitlion6]

Not a good rule then. The bottom guy can force a stalling call by standing up when legs are in? It's like intentionally pushing an opponent out of bounds.

I disagree. I like the rule change. I hate rules exceptions. It always seemed silly as goose shyt to me that the top man was always responsible for bringing the bottom man back to the mat, except in this one particular situation.

The argument that having legs in is offensive and this rule change gives the defensive wrestler an out in my opinion is somewhat weak. If the top man has a bar and half in, but the bottom man somehow gets to his feet there is no exception. The rule applies and to avoid a stall call the top guy better put the bottom guy back on the mat or release him.

 

[RoarLions1]

Not a good rule then. The bottom guy can force a stalling call by standing up when legs are in? It's like intentionally pushing an opponent out of bounds.

I disagree, completely. If the offensive wrestler continues to allow the defensive wrestler to stand, how is that control?

1st time, warning, 2nd time, point awarded, so they even get a pass on the first call. Plus it eliminates all confusion with the previous rule, which was beat to death here and other places as confusing, and I'm all for making the rules clearer.

Lastly, apples and oranges re. the out-of-bounds reference. In your example, the wrestler doing the pushing should, by rule, be issued a stall call.

 

[pawrestlersintn]

It turns out Michigan is having fun
http://www.flowrestling.org/video/1265497-massa-opens-up-about-the-cenzo-loss#.WgHR2YY77YU

We better watch out. Iowa will catch on to this eventually.

 

[Dogwelder]

It turns out Michigan is having fun
http://www.flowrestling.org/video/1265497-massa-opens-up-about-the-cenzo-loss#.WgHR2YY77YU

Massa says exactly what the PSU guys say! Fun. Relaxed. We are all best friends. Wrestle through positions ...

 

[matter7172]

I disagree, completely. If the offensive wrestler continues to allow the defensive wrestler to stand, how is that control?

1st time, warning, 2nd time, point awarded, so they even get a pass on the first call. Plus it eliminates all confusion with the previous rule, which was beat to death here and other places as confusing, and I'm all for making the rules clearer.

Lastly, apples and oranges re. the out-of-bounds reference. In your example, the wrestler doing the pushing should, by rule, be issued a stall call.

That's the point. The bottom wrestler is trying to initiate a stall call, not trying to get out. So it's precisely like the out of bounds reference. You're not going to get out in the situation you are initiating. You are not trying to further the action. You are cynically using the rule.

 

[PSUisawesome]

Massa says exactly what the PSU guys say! Fun. Relaxed. We are all best friends. Wrestle through positions ...

I guess when you have the kind of success Cael inc are having. The rest of your field is going to follow suit or explain to their AD why they aren't. Still it f**g embarrassing that the other major programs are becoming mini me's.

 

[nitlion6]

That's the point. The bottom wrestler is trying to initiate a stall call, not trying to get out. So it's precisely like the out of bounds reference. You're not going to get out in the situation you are initiating. You are not trying to further the action. You are cynically using the rule.

The point Roar added that I agree with is if the bottom man can get to his feet, how much control did top man have. If the rule is applicable for every other instance it seems nonsensical to have one exact exception.

Another consideration is the bottom man is not wrestling to a stall. He is wrestling to improve his position. That is what he is suppose to do. The same as a bottom man wrestling to his feet while the top man is trying to run a half.

 

[Dogwelder]

... if the bottom man can get to his feet, how much control did top man have. If the rule is applicable for every other instance it seems nonsensical to have one exact exception...

We can make the exception make logical sense if we change the name of the sport from Wrestling into "Legride Promotion Sport".

 

[RoarLions1]

That's the point. The bottom wrestler is trying to initiate a stall call, not trying to get out. So it's precisely like the out of bounds reference. You're not going to get out in the situation you are initiating. You are not trying to further the action. You are cynically using the rule.

And you missed everything said, not just me...nothing to add.

 

[dunkej01]

And you missed everything said, not just me...nothing to add.

Hey Roar.....are you able to throw together a thread for records that could be achieved or pursued this year?

 

[MDAlum]

Then he should return him to the mat and establish control again. Great rule change. Jimmy G agrees.

 

[NoVa Lion]

Then he should return him to the mat and establish control again. Great rule change. Jimmy G agrees.

Ditto. I agree. Great rule change simply because it makes the rule clear.

 

[RoarLions1]

Hey Roar.....are you able to throw together a thread for records that could be achieved or pursued this year?

Already done, if I can find it. The document is on a thumb drive somewhere in my house .

First things first though, we are stuffing envelopes tonight...for those that are club members...you'll be getting something soon (sorry for being a little cryptic here).

 

[matter7172]

Then he should return him to the mat and establish control again. Great rule change. Jimmy G agrees.

You've done this? It's not easy to do. You have to disengage the legs while on the opponent's back (not easy to do at all because of the leverage issues), get your feet under you with balance and then do all the things someone does when they are behind a wrestler in the standup position. The old rule where they stopped the action immediately and restarted worked fine. The new rule is basically saying if you stand with legs in, you get a point without doing anything else.

I absolutely disagree that the person who stands with legs in on him is trying to improve his position. That's not the way you improve your position. It used to be the way you got a restart. It's never been a way to get out. Until now. I wrestled in high school, college and for another 7 or so years after college. No one ever stood with legs in on them to get out.

 

[nitlion6]

You've done this? It's not easy to do. You have to disengage the legs while on the opponent's back (not easy to do at all because of the leverage issues), get your feet under you with balance and then do all the things someone does when they are behind a wrestler in the standup position. The old rule where they stopped the action immediately and restarted worked fine. The new rule is basically saying if you stand with legs in, you get a point without doing anything else.

I absolutely disagree that the person who stands with legs in on him is trying to improve his position. That's not the way you improve your position. It used to be the way you got a restart. It's never been a way to get out. Until now. I wrestled in high school, college and for another 7 or so years after college. No one ever stood with legs in on them to get out.

If the rule says bring them back down, and knowing the rule you cling instead of disengaging on the way up - who is wrestling to a stall?

If I weigh 150 pounds and I have the choice of lying on the mat under Zain or standing with Zain behind me. I am not lying underneath, and if I have mustered enough skill, strength and energy to get to my feet then I sure as hell do not want a ref telling me to get back down there.

Why should a bottom man be told he must disengage himself from a particular attack by a top man prior to trying to wrestle off the bottom? There is no other top attack position that by rule a bottom wrestler must disengage himself from prior to wrestling to his feet.

Generally speaking, the use of the word "fair" is almost always a subjective term that is misapplied as a measuring unit of equality.

If a rule dictates a singular exception to another rule that is applicable for every other similar situation - by definition the exception rule grants an advantage and therefore is unequal and allows for the use of "fair" or in this case "unfair" as an objective measuring unit of not equal.