Unless the police detectives are lying, and I don't understand why they would be in this case, the deleted texts show the concoction of bogus alibis, awareness that this kid was in real trouble, etc. Several of these kids are screwed.
18 PSU frat brothers charged with manslaughter...
- Thread starter tboyer
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Never have been in favor of alcohol, or physical hazing...completely unnecessary
So how much money is this kid's worth? Obviously your money is more important then the kids life. I would love to know the value you placed on his life.
How do you know these guys in frat are habitual losers? Just because they are in a frat or go to Penn State doesn't mean they should be above the law.
Apparently the frat bros could not be bothered to tell him. They were to busy taking snap chats of him as he dieing instead of getting the person in the house with medical training.
Alcohol is just as deadly as a vehicle. An underage drinking is just a summary citation. Which is completely different then DUI.
Joe should have known that the entire Panhellenic system was a death machine and he didn't do enough to stop it. Joe never even thought to get this kids name before he got drunk and passed out. Joe should have done more to encourage prohibition and abstinence. Joe knew that alcohol was bad. More sanctions on the way
L. Freeh-bird
L. Freeh-bird
I read the entire GJP. It was dark and sad.
That kid was in his own private hell for about 12 hours even though help was often feet away. Even as incapacitated as he was, the pain must have been nightmarish
very sad and troubling to read...the brothers while i dont think are cold blooded murderers, did about everything you can do wrong in this situation. no risk manager, no sober brothers, no thought of driving him to the hospital or calling for help. stupidity has consequences, and these kids will and should learn the hard way.
Some of them should serve jail time - as some people do who know they have a dangerous dog for example, are negligent, and the dog gets out of the yard and rips some kid's throat out. As JerseyLion said, sometimes stupidityLife in prison would be suitable? Or death by lethal injection?
has very serious consequences - even if, like in this case, there appears to be no criminal intent.
It is. I read it wondering if when I was in college if my classmates had that bad of judgement or displayed that level of selfishness. I truly don't think they did...so either I have a biased view of what we were like or this generation is really f'ed up.
It's all about intent in my example. It has nothing to do with who's money is more important (but you know that...at least I hope you're smart enough to know that). These fraternity guys made some bad decisions and the victim contributed to it. They weren't trying to get the consequences that happened. In my situation I did nothing to contribute and the offenders fully intended the consequences. There's a huge difference. And the guys in the frat are at least going to college....that's a lot more than the habitual losers I'm talking about ever did.
Good point. People just don't understand the finer points of Greek life like you and yours.
What are your definitions of an adult and a kid? Something tells me you don't define it the same way the law does.
OK, but what about their activities that contributed to a death? Every one seems to be forgetting that.
Drunk......you know I get it. Pretty much all of us have been there. However, I like to think after such an incident that myself or ONE of my friends would have cared more about an injured person than our own futures. I couldn't care less about the future of Greek life at PSU. The only sorrow I have for those charged is that they have to go through the rest of their lives with such selfish instincts.
If you read the presentment the intent was to not make a call for help so that they could avoid trouble. They even went so far as to physically assault the member that wanted to call for help.
If you read the Sandusky presentment, McQueary witnessed anal rape. We know how that turned out.
Difference was there was a video of the whole incident for the grand jury to watch vs. 10 year old vague recollections.
So are you saying we should stop DUI enforcement because there is no intent? Are police wasting their time arresting Neilson Rizzuto who drove into the parade roue in New Orleans. He had no intention on hurting people.
Exactly. Let's throw out more than a 1000 years of the development of negligence theory in Anglo-American common law because, hey, these fraternity guys will have their lives affected.
That is strong. An experienced, adult, professional trainer, who happens to practice in an area where a knowledge of head trauma is of critical importance and is the chapter adviser, was on the premises and not consulted at any time?
The DUI example people keep bringing up doesn't wash in this instance. It's apples and oranges. The other drivers are not voluntarily participating in the drunk driver's decision. A better example would be if one drunk person got into a car and rode with his drunk buddy. If there is an accident and the passenger is injured, doesn't the passenger share in the blame? Poor choices have poor consequences and everyone should be responsible for their own choices.
Let's throw out all self responsibility and just blame the other guy. That's where we're heading as a society any way.
It's called Comparative Negligence in the civil law area and doesn't let others off the hook for their own negligence.
By the way, have any of you ever heard of backpacking as described in the GJP? They put a backpack full of textbooks on his back so he couldn't roll over on his back and choke on his vomit. Sounds like they had experience dealing with kids who passed out.
Straw man. One responsible guy is dead - other responsible guys are now on the docket as they should be
Yeah. We all have personal opinions on freedom of human action and the like, but we're talking torts here.
I never said they shouldn't be held to some degree of responsibility. The question is what degree is that? The punishment should be based on their level of responsibility not the emotion of the fact that a young person died. I was never that drunk because I never drank enough to get that drunk. It's a pretty easy thing to avoid.
But it does lessen the punishment if someone is not as much at fault. In this case, I put a huge amount of the negligence on the person who chose to drink that much. Yes, alcohol was provided to a minor which is illegal. But it's also illegal for that minor to drink it. I don't think the others should be let off the hook, but I also don't think they should fry.
I hear you and agree with the thrust of your argument.
I, myself, never joined a fraternity even though my dad and one brother did because I wanted to control how and when I partied. I did have a ton of friends and a lot of fun in them (though I look back and wonder what was in some of the grain punch I drank after hearing tales of fraternity pre-party hijinks).
Anyway, good discussion
You are focused on the drinking and not the part that most people are upset about.
The poor kid fell face-first down a flight of stairs. He was unconscious for hours. He fell multiple times after the initial fall. He would not wake up. He had a massive bruise on the side of his body from internal bleeding. And yet it took them 12 hours to call an ambulance.
Nice to see a fellow frater in here. I was in TKE down in Tennessee-Chattanooga. I rushed as a 23 year old freshman after I got out of the military.
I was the president my last year and as an older brother I focused on grades, test files, IM sports, and relationships with other fraternities (because we did not have a house). A lot of brothers resented me because our goals were not aligned because I wasn't focused on the foolishness and "pranks" on other fraternities and encouraging massive consumption of alcohol. Two years later my VP at the time became the president and the chapter was kicked off campus for hazing, banned for five years, and to this day have never gained the support to return.
I talk to a few brothers, but for the most part I left that nonsense behind because of how it all ended and they way they conducted themselves. I joined with one goal in mind, but left campus completely disappointed with this brotherhood and the Greek organization.
I think it's appropriate that the people responsible are held accountable. What I don't get is why the university thinks it should go after frats that had nothing to do with it.
If I rob a bank, should my friends and neighbors be charged too?
If I rob a bank, should my friends and neighbors be charged too?
Debauchery is a good word for most colleges today. The animals are running the show. You don't like something, just riot and get your way. Then put on a black mask and black clothes and burn your school down. Schools have become jungles being led by liberals that hate America or pansies that give in to their demandshttp://www.philly.com/philly/education/Students-charged-with-manslaughter-in-PSU-frat-death.html
BELLEFONTE, Pa. – Eighteen Penn State students and their fraternity were charged Friday in one of the largest hazing prosecutions in the nation’s history.
SLIDESHOW
Students charged with manslaughter in Penn State frat death
Eight of the students face involuntary manslaughter charges in connection with the death of 19-year-old Tim Piazza, who suffered fatal injuries when he fell down a set of stairs during a Beta Theta Pi fraternity pledge party earlier this year.
Centre County District Attorney Stacy Parks Miller announced the sweeping case at a press conference in Bellefonte. Flanked by Piazza’s parents and blown-up portrait of the sophomore engineering major, she accused fraternity members of putting Piazza through a dangerous booze-fueled hazing ritual and failing to call for help once he had injured himself.
“It’s heart-breaking all around,” she said. “There are no winners here.”
With his arm wrapped around his wife, Piazza’s father, Jim, choked back tears.
“This did not have to happen,” he said.
The charges unveiled Friday was the result of a months-long grand jury investigation. The panel’s blistering presentment described a ritual known as “the gauntlet” in which pledges were required to stop at various alcohol stations, where they guzzled vodka, shotgunned beers, drank from wine bags and played multiple rounds of beer pong.
One fraternity member told the grand jury that pledges drank four to five alcoholic beverages within a two-minute time span.
Those charged with misdemeanor counts of involuntary manslaughter included Brendan Young, president of the Beta Theta Pi chapter at Penn State, as well as fellow fraternity members Daniel Casey, Jonah Neuman, Nick Kubera, Michael Bonatucci, Gary Dibileo, Luke Visser and Joe Sala.
Each also faces felony charges of aggravated assault which could result in prison terms if they are convicted. They are expected to be arraigned later Friday in Centre County Court
In addition, ten other student members of the Beta Theta Pi fraternity face lesser charges including hazing and furnishing alcohol to minors.
Piazza, a sophomore engineering major from Lebanon, N.J., was intoxicated at the Feb. 2 pledge party when he fell multiple times and was knocked unconscious, the district attorney said.
Members of the fraternity moved him to a couch but did not call for emergency help until the next morning, about 12 hours later. Piazza died the next day at Hershey Medical Center, having suffered a non-recoverable head injury, ruptured spleen and collapsed lung.
Defense attorneys for the students have said previously that fraternity members did not know Piazza was in danger but rather thought he was just drunk and would sleep it off.
But Parks Miller lambasted that argument Friday, saying that video taken from the fraternity house’s extensive security system disproved those claims. For in
“It’s unusual to have a crime captured from beginning to end,” she said.
The charges were announced hours before Penn State's board of trustees were scheduled to meet and as commencement festivities were getting underway at the 46,000-student University Park campus.
The university, having conducted its own investigation, permanently banned Beta Theta Pi earlier this spring, citing evidence of forced drinking, hazing and other illegal activity. The university also instituted new rules for the rest of its 83 fraternities and sororities, whose members represent about 18 percent of the student body.
In a statement Friday, the university’s Interfraternity Council pledged it was committed to reforms that would prevent similar deaths in the future.
“Our thoughts continue to lie with the Piazza family as the justice process moves forward,” the statement read. “The best way to shift culture is for students, alumni, and the university to work together.”
No charges were filed against Tim Bream, 56, a Penn State assistant athletic director and head trainer for the football team who also lived in the Beta Theta Pi house. Bream was employed by the fraternity as an adviser.
Parks Miller said Friday that Bream was in his room at the fraternity house on the night of Piazza’s death, but the investigation did not reveal any evidence that would result in charges.
Hazing and excessive drinking at fraternities and sororities has long plagued colleges and universities, at times resulting in similar prosecutions.
Five years ago, a fraternity pledge ritual involving alcohol resulted in the death of a student at Northern Illinois University. Prosecutors charged 22 fraternity members, including five Pi Kappa Alpha leaders who pleaded guilty to reckless conduct and were sentenced to various terms of probation and community service.
Two years ago, prosecutors charged 37 members of the Pi Delta Psi fraternity at Baruch College in New York in the hazing death of 19-year-old freshman Chun Hsien "Michael" Deng. The case included third-degree murder charges against five current and former members.
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