That's not the point I was making at all. The only point I was making was that the Good Samaritan law only would protect someone who was underage from prosecution for underage drinking.
18 PSU frat brothers charged with manslaughter...
- Thread starter tboyer
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That's not the point I was making at all. The only point I was making was that the Good Samaritan law only would protect someone who was underage from prosecution for underage drinking.
The more info we get about what happened the more your statement seems correct. A bunch of heard animals committed crimes to save their asses.
In that same scenario the driver would still face involuntary manslaughter charges. It doesn't matter if he was a passenger or not. Secondly there was hazing so his drinking was not completely voluntary.
I'm sure it doesn't do the business it did when the drinking age was 18 in NY. That place was packed every night. When I got old enough to pass for 21 I stayed in Pa. and no one ever carded me. Mansfield was dry, so we always had to travel some. When I student taught we hung out at Hess's in Bloomsburg, some nice memories there as well.
At PSU a criminal record can prevent you from getting a seat on the BoT. Its not just like you can forget about it or something...........Nevermind
If they were underage and had been provided alcohol by someone I would bet yes.
Not everyone T the social was charged. Just those who provided him alcohol and/or was present while he was clearly in need of medical care.
Second they are charged additionally because of the fact that almost no one got him medical help despite clear injuries and stopped the one person who did voice concern for his condition from helping.
You can still say no...it's pretty easy. And I didn't say the passenger was killed, I said injured. Should the injured party or his family be able to sue in that case? I think not. Were you ever at a party where someone passed out and you knew about it? If that person died in his/her sleep should you have been prosecuted for it? You knew and did nothing about it. What if someone said they thought that person needed help and you said he's just sleeping it off and then he died. Again, should you be prosecuted?
Understood. I was never in a frat but attended a couple of parties. Begging a "brother" to get me a beer wasn't my thing. I grew up poor, put myself through college, and was way too proud to kiss anyone's ass for anything. Especially self entitled rich frat boys.
That being said, the guy knew what he was getting into, and a bunch of stupid drunk frat boys did the wrong thing by not calling 911. They didn't purposely throw him down the steps nor did they physically hold him down and make him drink in excess. If they did, throw them in jail and let Bubba take care of them.
I agree that they were supidly neglegent, but I don't think that their names should be drug through the mud or the charges should ruin their lives forever. Again, just my opinion.
I've since grown up and realized that SOME frat boys are ok.
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Again, it is important to remember that being negligent combined with knowing violations of the law puts you at risk of often severe criminal penalties. The nature of the penalties will depend on the damage caused. Here the damage was that a kid died so the penalties will be harsh.
This story is now national. They will be charged whether correctly or not more so to prove a point and set a new standard of what these events should look like moving forward. It will not just stop at Greek life as apartment parties are just as bad and they will be put under same umbrella at psu.
Maybe it's time to rethink some of the policies that have brought things to this point - like keg bans. I don't remember anyone dying from draft beer back in the day.
Yeah. Keg bans is not ever going to appear in a textbook on examples of effective public policy decisions.
As long as people feel better about themselves. That's all that matters.
Totally agree. It's all about liquor now that gets these kids wasted.
Not only that, but the keg is always a bottleneck at any party with a ton of people. Always slows the drinking down IMO.
Yeah, they were regular Florence Nightengales
To me this case has little to do with the fraternity and a lot to do with teenage kids making terrible decisions. Anyone who thinks that these incidents would be decreased by shutting down the Greek system is naive. These incidents happen all over the place. They are caused by people over-drinking and making poor decisions. Can happen at apartments, houses etc.
Its like thinking your teen won't have sex because you told them they can't have sex at your house. Cutting off a geographic location does little to curb the behavior.
The solutions should be geared towards stopping/curbing the underlying behavior - not stopping them from drinking on big houses on/off campus.
Its like thinking your teen won't have sex because you told them they can't have sex at your house. Cutting off a geographic location does little to curb the behavior.
The solutions should be geared towards stopping/curbing the underlying behavior - not stopping them from drinking on big houses on/off campus.
Based on what I know, these kids should have been charged. That is how the law is equipped to handle this situation, which to be clear, could happen anywhere and probably has happened elsewhere. The bigger question is, what is the lasting effect of this case? How is this prevented?
I don't see that this case in and of itself will change behavior. Underage kids will continue to drink heavily, thinking something terrible won't happen to them or their friends or that they will be able to handle it if it does. Hazing likely will continue in one way or another. Sadly, I think that this case will have little impact on the problems of underage drinking and hazing.
I don't see that this case in and of itself will change behavior. Underage kids will continue to drink heavily, thinking something terrible won't happen to them or their friends or that they will be able to handle it if it does. Hazing likely will continue in one way or another. Sadly, I think that this case will have little impact on the problems of underage drinking and hazing.
So what's the argument for keeping Greek life and fraternities? People will have the same opportunities without them.
Im not sure how you equate binge drinking being the sole reason for fraternities?
The argument for keeping Greek life has nothing to do with alchohol. Without Greek Life PSU would not have the Dance Marathon. Greek Organizations do a decent amount of philanthropy.
They also provide social opportunities for students. Many people who went to PSU or other universities with Greek systems, who were a part of the Greek system, met many of their best lifelong friends there.
Should we get rid of cars because some less responsible people choose to drink and drive? We could literally end drinking and driving if we got rid of cars. But do cars cause people to act irresponsibly? No. The underlying behavior is what needs to be corrected.
The argument for keeping Greek life has nothing to do with alchohol. Without Greek Life PSU would not have the Dance Marathon. Greek Organizations do a decent amount of philanthropy.
They also provide social opportunities for students. Many people who went to PSU or other universities with Greek systems, who were a part of the Greek system, met many of their best lifelong friends there.
Should we get rid of cars because some less responsible people choose to drink and drive? We could literally end drinking and driving if we got rid of cars. But do cars cause people to act irresponsibly? No. The underlying behavior is what needs to be corrected.
Ah yes, the "But THON" argument. Except that even now THON is run and supported by non-Greek organizations. It would continue because the people who are committed to it would see past the lack of the IFC label and continue to contribute their time and effort. If anything decoupling THON from fraternity culture would probably improve THON itself.
My question isn't about ending drinking. It's about ending fraternity culture and it's influence on the University. I'm still waiting for a compelling argument for what they add that students at UP would lose without them. 85% of the student body doesn't belong to those organizations and are suitably able to join clubs and organizations. We all make lifelong friends. So what's the argument that the University should continue to expose themselves to risk by associating with these social clubs?
well this thing is the new penn state scandal...front page of ABC news. Tragic and horrible incident but if this happened at any other 1000 schools, i bet this wouldnt be front page news. people read penn state and it gets clicks
LINK: ABC Good Morning America segment on the incident earlier this morning
Kordel Davis is interviewed.
Kordel Davis is interviewed.
I think the argument for Greek Life is that it provides an option for students.
Im not exactly sure what "fraternity culture" means. Or what it is? To paint the entire Greek system with a broad brush due to this one incident seems unfair.
Do I think PSU will cease to exist or it will fall apart if the Greek system is shut down. Nope. Do I think that it will lose a bit of the flavor of what has shaped PSU over the last 50 years. Ya, I think it will.
But my question is why shut it down? What will it fix? What will it make better?
Im not exactly sure what "fraternity culture" means. Or what it is? To paint the entire Greek system with a broad brush due to this one incident seems unfair.
Do I think PSU will cease to exist or it will fall apart if the Greek system is shut down. Nope. Do I think that it will lose a bit of the flavor of what has shaped PSU over the last 50 years. Ya, I think it will.
But my question is why shut it down? What will it fix? What will it make better?
It happened again just last night. On another campus somewhere. But you won't hear about it.
Shutting it down releases the University from liability that it's exposed to when students die. It's a system they sanction and that isn't in control of itself. That's the primary reason.
Everytime something happens at a fraternity we hear that people are generalizing based on one incident. This isn't the first time a kid has been hazed or died as a result of alcohol poisoning. It's not the only time they've furnished alcohol to people under 21. The culture that is embraced by fraternities and sororities revolves around unhealthy alcohol consumption and sexual behavior. It revolves around pressuring people to fit in and excluding and shaming those who don't. Don't be so naive to think that this fraternity and it's behavior isn't representative of what goes on weekly on and off-campus. In a system that values women for their bodies and men for how much they're willing to drink I fail to see the value it provides to the University. And you're going to tell me "well that will happen at apartment parties too", which just proves my point that they're not providing anything unique. They're just exposing the University to risk.
I hate drinking culture and that actually sounds like it would be fun. At least the HUB lawn part.
They have to stop the hard liquor consumption - and give alternatives to it. Fill their bellies and exhaust them, but do it w/ beer (is 3.2 beer still around?), not vodka and 151.
You're also using the wrong analogy, and you're focused on the wrong problem. To prevent deaths from a car crash you require the use of seatbelts. People can choose whether or not to wear one and put themselves at risk. But automakers can't decide whether or not to install them. The ones who don't play by the rules don't get to sell their product. Think of Greek life as one big automaker - if they can't comply with the rules then they won't be in business. They're not going lose their charters because kids get drunk, they're going to lose their charters because the rules they are bound by to protect people aren't being followed.
No. They're going to lose their charters because of public opinion and property values. The "rules" have been set up to fail, and keep the REAL drinking underground from day one - whether intentionally or unintentionally. Time to bring it back in the open because it isn't going away.
Shutting it down will be an option, but as you say, won't solve the larger problem of binge and excessive drinking.
I think the fraternities need to be a big part of the solution to keeping them. Be proactive and propose measures that will keep them relevant, keep them 'in line', address what they want the perception of their culture to be (via actions and promotion), etc. Get in front of this and go to the University and indicate that they want to help and lead and collaborate about this and any other issues that hinder their stated, but often overlooked, purposes as fraternal organizations. That often includes providing various positive services to the university community and beyond the campus boundaries as well. Make that have a real meaning and purpose and results.
My guess is that this has been attempted before, but has not stuck or has been ineffective enough to see the problem persist. So they need to come together and figure out how to make it different from this point. The university admin has all the reasons they need to come down hard at this point. If the fraternity system wants to stay in place in University Park and elsewhere in the PSU system, they need to go beyond being merely contrite, and prove their maturity and common sense in addressing the issue and finding common ground allowing them to stay in place.
It's a little like the parenting technique of taking all the toys away from a young child who does something 'bad' (relatively!). Take them all away, and allow the child to earn back one at a time for good behaviors. Incentivize the behaviors wanted. There is some young adult equivalency to be found somewhere in there, I'm sure.
I happen to think the beyond-Greek drinking issue needs to be approached differently, too. Beer legal at 18 may sound like a bad idea on the surface, and maybe it ultimately is, but deserves some thought and study. Alcohol prohibition isn't coming back, so how is it all best controlled? An argument can be made that it isn't being controlled all that well as is all across the country.
They're bound by rules set up by Penn State and the IFC. Penn State doesn't want students drinking to such excess, I'm sure you'll agree. The fraternities, fair or not, will lose their charters because the rules imposed upon them in order to exist aren't being followed. Definitely public pressure as well. But in exchange for status with Penn State they have expectations put upon them that many of them have been unwilling to follow.
The problem isn't really alcohol, it's with authority. As in Penn State needs to end the system because frats don't respect their authority. Then kids can do whatever they want.
The property value and public opinion points are simple. If this was 25 years ago, no one would care. The stakes are much more litigious and higher now. Back then, heart strings weren't as easily plucked as they are now, and public opinion meant a letter to the editor, not countless tweets of wanting life in prison for these Beta kids (as well as some assuming they're rapists as well). The fraternities are defenseless right now. I don't know about you, but I prefer fair fights.
