18 PSU frat brothers charged with manslaughter...

[no1lion99]

I'm not an attorney and it's best if one chimes in here, but to this layperson not calling 911 would seem to be a link in the chain of negligence related to and following the unlawful act of furnishing alcohol to a minor and therefore part of the Involuntary manslaughter charge. Again, it's best for an attorney to clarify. It surely will be part of the Wrongful Death claim forthcoming in the civil suit.

The clearly "unlawful act" is furnishing him (a minor) alcohol "recklessly or negligently" (i.e. the gauntlet), which is the ultimate action that led to his death. Giving him that alcohol made him "stuporously" drunk (LINK: from the med examiner, see Par. 290-310) >>>him being drunk led him to falling down the stairs>>>>him falling down the stairs lead to his traumatic brain injury>>>the TBI killed him.

 

[BobPSU92]

But, drinking and partying aren't all frats do (right?).

Of course not. I wasn't clear in my previous post. That was my rationale back in college for not getting involved with frats (joining or attending parties). While they did good things in the community, I often found the emphasis to be the parties and drinking. That wasn't for me.

Frankly, I struggled in Nittany Apartments, just an apartment of four, when one of my roommates had a party on a Friday or Saturday night. The drinking, the yelling, etc. Not my thing. I would go out with friends (making sure I locked my bedroom door).

 

[mn78psu83]

The clearly "unlawful act" is furnishing him (a minor) alcohol "recklessly or negligently" (i.e. the gauntlet), which is the ultimate action that led to his death. Giving him that alcohol made him "stuporously" drunk (LINK: from the med examiner, see Par. 290-310) >>>him being drunk led him to falling down the stairs>>>>him falling down the stairs lead to his traumatic brain injury>>>the TBI killed him.

Indeed. The question pertained to not making the 911 call, i.e., since his death did not immediately occur as a result of the fall and plenty of time elapsed before they called for emergency aid, is there criminal negligence associated with that? To the layperson, in light of the primary definition of the world negligent (failing to take proper care in doing something.) it would seem that the failure to do so in a timely fashion would be an act of negligence. According to the law, however, the failure to call for help that we judge to not have been done in a timely manner might not be considered a criminally negligent inaction. I'm pretty sure in civil law that if you created the peril that would necessitate the call, you can be considered negligent if you do not call 911. Calling @demlion. We need a real attorneys opinion.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Of course not. I wasn't clear in my previous post. That was my rationale back in college for not getting involved with frats (joining or attending parties). While they did good things in the community, I often found the emphasis to be the parties and drinking. That wasn't for me.

Frankly, I struggled in Nittany Apartments, just an apartment of four, when one of my roommates had a party on a Friday or Saturday night. The drinking, the yelling, etc. Not my thing. I would go out with friends (making sure I locked my bedroom door).

I was being sort of rhetorical. I wasn't into the frat scene either but on the hierarchy of what they were good for (at least among my friends who were into that sort of thing) partying/drinking was far and away #1. Having said that, I'd put your average Marine Corps or Army barracks on a Friday night up against any frat anywhere in the country on any night. There's a reason alcohol is dirt cheap in the on-post convenience and liquor stores...

 

[Bobpsu]

It always makes me laugh to read posts like this. Some dude who was not in a fraternity, knows virtually nothing about what it is like to live in a fraternity (as if there was some uniform, monolithic "fraternity environment"), and nonetheless feels fully qualified to expound at length on the subject. Color me shocked that you "fail to see the value" Greek life provides to the University. .

You don't need to have been in a fraternity to be qualified to know dying in one is just wrong!

 

[Talpsu]

Indeed. The question pertained to not making the 911 call, i.e., since his death did not immediately occur as a result of the fall and plenty of time elapsed before they called for emergency aid, is there criminal also negligence associated with that? To the layperson, in light of the primary definition of the world negligent (failing to take proper care in doing something.) it would seem that the failure to do so in a timely fashion would be an act of negligence. According to the law, however, the failure to call for help that we judge to not have been done in a timely manner might not be considered a criminally negligent inaction. I'm pretty sure in civil law that if you created the peril that would necessitate the call, you can be considered negligent if you do not call 911.

This is what Im curious about. I get by not calling 911 it probably led to his death but is there a law that's even says I have to help someone. Morally sure. But legally? Im wondering if because it was on their property they responsible for calling 911 if someone is injured.

 

[mgkpsu]

This is what Im curious about. I get by not calling 911 it probably led to his death but is there a law that's even says I have to help someone. Morally sure. But legally? Im wondering if because it was on their property they responsible for calling 911 if someone is injured.

They clearly took the approach of charging a whole bunch of (extra) people, and slapping on some "extra" charges that will be hard to prosecute, likely in order to get some to roll over, and to make sure that they get at least something to stick to some of the kids. I don't really see any of them doing a day in jail ultimately.

 

[BobPSU92]

I was being sort of rhetorical. I wasn't into the frat scene either but on the hierarchy of what they were good for (at least among my friends who were into that sort of thing) partying/drinking was far and away #1. Having said that, I'd put your average Marine Corps or Army barracks on a Friday night up against any frat anywhere in the country on any night. There's a reason alcohol is dirt cheap in the on-post convenience and liquor stores...

I remember the efforts people would go to when I was at Penn State to "get on the list" for a frat party. It seemed to be the be all to end all for many students, as if they could not have a good weekend or meet people if they didn't "get on the list". I was always "whatever" with respect to that activity.

Now, I realize that some people reading my posts probably think I'm atop a high horse here, especially given the subject of this thread. That is not my intention. I was a chemistry major in the Blue Band, so to many, I was a nerd, which was not enviable in college. We're all different. However, that's what makes a place like Penn State great. There is something for everyone (aside from the classes).

 

[Player2BNamedL8r]

Your f87cked. There is no way to have a gradient of punishment based on your brain maturation, and it's tolerance to risky behavior.

Except that in the modern world, science is telling us that previous notions of "adulthood" have shifted. With what we now know about typical brain development, do we appropriately adjust the age in which people are tried as adults?

 

[LafayetteBear]

You don't need to have been in a fraternity to be qualified to know dying in one is just wrong!

You'll get no argument from me on that. I was responding to a post in which the poster, who had in prior posts made it clear he was never in a fraternity, indicated that he "failed to see the value" Greek life provides to the University. He was commenting from ignorance. The tragedy that is the subject of this thread is quite clearly not the summation of all Greek life represents, no matter what he might think. If it were, then no one would join a Greek house.

 

[BlueBand]

Well, I hate to say it, but I think this might blow up into another pile on against the Penn State culture again. Depends on how much the lawyers and the press want to take it on.

I also wonder, is it REALLY like this everywhere, or do we have a unique problem either with the fraternities and/or the administration? Has the administration been so worried about liability that they've been unwilling to tackle this?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/08/us/penn-state-fraternities-hazing-alcohol/index.html

 

[Delco Lion]

Well, I hate to say it, but I think this might blow up into another pile on against the Penn State culture again. Depends on how much the lawyers and the press want to take it on.

I also wonder, is it REALLY like this everywhere, or do we have a unique problem either with the fraternities and/or the administration? Has the administration been so worried about liability that they've been unwilling to tackle this?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/08/us/penn-state-fraternities-hazing-alcohol/index.html

Sara Ganim checking in. I called that one.

 

[NittanyLionRoar]

You'll get no argument from me on that. I was responding to a post in which the poster, who had in prior posts made it clear he was never in a fraternity, indicated that he "failed to see the value" Greek life provides to the University. He was commenting from ignorance. The tragedy that is the subject of this thread is quite clearly not the summation of all Greek life represents, no matter what he might think. If it were, then no one would join a Greek house.

I grew up in State College. I can't remember a single time my community was made better by the frats. Like seriously...in 24 years in State College, I never remember them volunteering at my schools, never saw a fraternity of brothers cleaning trash on the side of the road, doing food drives, etc. They mostly just tangled up the emergency services with their self-induced stupidity, keeping emergency personnel from other emergencies that people hadn't brought upon themselves. I mean, I guess there was a lot of drinking FTK...and I guess they did some canning along with a lot non-frat students too. I can't think of much benefit though.

 

[mgkpsu]

I grew up in State College. I can't remember a single time my community was made better by the frats. Like seriously...in 24 years in State College, I never remember them volunteering at my schools, never saw a fraternity of brothers cleaning trash on the side of the road, doing food drives, etc. They mostly just tangled up the emergency services with their self-induced stupidity, keeping emergency personnel from other emergencies that people hadn't brought upon themselves. I mean, I guess there was a lot of drinking FTK...and I guess they did some canning along with a lot non-frat students too. I can't think of much benefit though.

In the spring there was an event called Greek Sweep to clean up trash in the neighborhood. Also, several Fraternities have sponsored Adopt-a-Highway sections.

So I guess it turns out that you don't know everything.

 

[Bobpsu]

In the spring there was an event called Greek Sweep to clean up trash in the neighborhood. Also, several Fraternities have sponsored Adopt-a-Highway sections.

So I guess it turns out that you don't know everything.

I would say they are coming up short!

 

[NittanyLionRoar]

In the spring there was an event called Greek Sweep to clean up trash in the neighborhood. Also, several Fraternities have sponsored Adopt-a-Highway sections.

So I guess it turns out that you don't know everything.

Cool. I've just never seen it. I had friends that joined frats and I was invited to rush one. I still don't remember my friends talking about all of the community service they did because they joined a frat. It certainly wasn't the selling point of the frat that invited me to rush, either. I am sure there are people who could come on here and mention the 2-hour event a frat did some Saturday in a spring semester some time--but don't kid yourselves, that's not their schtick. It's a logical fallacy (cherry picking) to say that some frat guys did a good thing once, and so they're good overall. We know what they do every weekend.

 

[mn78psu83]

Well, I hate to say it, but I think this might blow up into another pile on against the Penn State culture again. Depends on how much the lawyers and the press want to take it on.

I also wonder, is it REALLY like this everywhere, or do we have a unique problem either with the fraternities and/or the administration? Has the administration been so worried about liability that they've been unwilling to tackle this?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/08/us/penn-state-fraternities-hazing-alcohol/index.html

Now you've done it. You've invoked she who shall not be named.

 

[no1lion99]

They clearly took the approach of charging a whole bunch of (extra) people, and slapping on some "extra" charges that will be hard to prosecute, likely in order to get some to roll over, and to make sure that they get at least something to stick to some of the kids. I don't really see any of them doing a day in jail ultimately.

Have you read the charging document? They have zero need to have anyone "roll over" on someone else. They have the texts about buying the alcohol along with receipts, they have video of the gauntlet and the things they were doing with Piazza after the first fall, and they have the communications after the fact about destroying evidence.

What's truly stunning is how obviously stupid the brothers behaved knowing they were on video most of the time.

 

[manatree]

What's truly stunning is how obviously stupid the brothers behaved knowing they were on video most of the time.

Or texting, emailing, etc. and leaving electronic evidence of their efforts to delete other electronic evidence.

 

[jerseylion109]

this story has really really blown up...another sad day for penn state....we gotta get over this stuff...its killing me

 

[mn78psu83]

Have you read the charging document? They have zero need to have anyone "roll over" on someone else. They have the texts about buying the alcohol along with receipts, they have video of the gauntlet and the things they were doing with Piazza after the first fall, and they have the communications after the fact about destroying evidence.

What's truly stunning is how obviously stupid the brothers behaved knowing they were on video most of the time.

This is no fishing expedition. I can't imagine how there won't be a whole series of plea deals.

 

[mgkpsu]

Have you read the charging document? They have zero need to have anyone "roll over" on someone else. They have the texts about buying the alcohol along with receipts, they have video of the gauntlet and the things they were doing with Piazza after the first fall, and they have the communications after the fact about destroying evidence.

What's truly stunning is how obviously stupid the brothers behaved knowing they were on video most of the time.

So then you are saying that someone with 200 individual charges will be convicted of every single one. Cool, I'll save this post for future reference.

PS What was your screen name before this one?

 

[no1lion99]

So then you are saying that someone with 200 individual charges will be convicted of every single one. Cool, I'll save this post for future reference.

PS What was your screen name before this one?

Now you are making a different argument altogether.

 

[L.T. Young]

Now you've done it. You've invoked she who shall not be named.

 

[mgkpsu]

Now you are making a different argument altogether.

No, I've been quite consistent, actually. I believe many kids did wrong, but the deceased is also not totally without blame, and then there was also a heaping pile of bad luck for all. But I don't believe any of them will, nor deserve, to go to prison. You are clearly on some crusade for whatever reason.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

 

[L.T. Young]

 

[AWS1022]

I remember the efforts people would go to when I was at Penn State to "get on the list" for a frat party. It seemed to be the be all to end all for many students, as if they could not have a good weekend or meet people if they didn't "get on the list". I was always "whatever" with respect to that activity.

Now, I realize that some people reading my posts probably think I'm atop a high horse here, especially given the subject of this thread. That is not my intention. I was a chemistry major in the Blue Band, so to many, I was a nerd, which was not enviable in college. We're all different. However, that's what makes a place like Penn State great. There is something for everyone (aside from the classes).

A chemistry major? No wonder you couldn't get on the list.

 

[BobPSU92]

A chemistry major? No wonder you couldn't get on the list.

But I was in the Blue Band! (Yeah, that didn't help either.)

 

[AWS1022]

But I was in the Blue Band! (Yeah, that didn't help either.)

You just didn't find the Blue Band groupies.

 

[BobPSU92]

You just didn't find the Blue Band groupies.

That could have been scary.

 

[Superpup]

NBC News‏
18 Penn State frat brothers charged after ignoring dying pledge for 12 hours http://nbcnews.to/2qMpUJd


This just isnt true...i hate the media

Yea the media is to blame...you are a disgrace.
Guess Penn State will have to pay out more millions when they get sued again.

 

[no1lion99]

No, I've been quite consistent, actually. I believe many kids did wrong, but the deceased is also not totally without blame, and then there was also a heaping pile of bad luck for all. But I don't believe any of them will, nor deserve, to go to prison. You are clearly on some crusade for whatever reason.

You first argued that they were overcharged to "roll over" on the others. I noted this was not necessary since they had documented evidence against most of the charges in the forms of text, messaging, and video. They also already had direct testimony from most of the brothers about what they did. There was nothing to roll anyone on. Then you changed to "will they be convicted on every single charge?" That isn't what you argued in the first instance and it isn't what I argued either. Will they be convicted on every single charge? I doubt it, but that is because I think most of them will try to plead out on lesser charges to avoid jail, as I suspect most are first time offenders. I have no idea how strong of a legal case this is because I am not a lawyer and i don't know the case law around involuntary manslaughter, but they have several brothers dead to rights on furnishing alcohol to a minor. No crusade here other than to note that this case is way beyond the usual "hey man we got drunk and stupid". The irony here is that they would all be in way less trouble had they simply called 911 after the first fall, and of course Timothy might be alive.

As a point of reference, when I was a freshman I was drinking in east halls with my girlfriend and some other friends and I got horrible stomach pains. My girlfriend and her friends called 911, despite the fact that everyone was under age and we were in clear violation of school policy. They didn't freak out because we were all under age, or because they might get slapped by the RA. They got me the medical help I needed. In the end no one got cited by the cops, or even written up by the RA. That's how you do it.

Yes I think frats are stupid, and I don't see them being net positives in the community. However from the testimonials in these boards it seems some frats try at least to be safe by having rules where some brothers have to stay sober during events to keep stuff like this from getting out of hand. This frat seemed to blatantly flout the rules, and then compounded that affirmative choice by proactively keeping Piazza from getting help he needed.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Question: does PSU have an amnesty policy in place for reporting students who are in need of emergency medical treatment for drug and alcohol abuse?

I ask because my daughter just relayed an incident from last night where a young woman on her dorm floor woke everyone up because she was flipping out after taking too much of a halucinagin. The kids called 911 immediately and she got treatment right away. My daughter said it was a pretty horrific scene.

I'm curious if PSU has something similar?

This problem isn't new and it's not isolated to PSU. I used to live in Princeton in the late 80's and believe me, they had big issues.

Wasn't it the 2 incidents at Princeton and Rutgers in the mid-late 80s that triggered the first major alcohol crackdowns on college campuses? I was an undergrad then and I remember Penn instituting a keg ban (several fraternities had a protest march in opposition) late in my tenure.

Edit - just easily found this:

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/04/nyregion/15-indicted-in-rutgers-hazing-death.html

 

[jerseylion109]

well they didnt "ignore" him. Ive said many times they were dumb, wreckless, ignorant, potentially criminal and they should be held accountable. but go ahead keep calling me a disgrace

 

[AvgUser]

My two cents on this topic.

Some floated it in another thread, I think, But, the Davis frat brother who has been spouting his story off on news shows and newspapers really is irritating to me. I only saw one interview over the weekend and I'm sure the rest were similar. I think it is just as bad that he is being regarded as some sort of heroic figure for exclaiming the other brothers/house to get Piazza help. Evidently, this guy didn't do nearly enough and his heroic actions ought to be condemned just the same.

To me, Davis' story line goes like this: "I saw that Piazza was quite intoxicated and hurting. I told everyone that he needed medical help from trained doctors and emergency care specialists, but nobody listened to me. So, I walked away and am quite content in my actions of letting him die."

 

[PearlSUJam]

Not that it really matters in the end, but during the interview on GMA it was stated as a fact that the deceased had a .40 BAC.

There was no mention that it was an estimation based on his body size and time that elapsed since his last drink. Just another example of irresponsible journalism by our friends at Disney.

 

[Delco Lion]

New arraignments this afternoon:

http://www.philly.com/philly/educat...others-to-be-arraigned-Tuesday-afternoon.html

 

[jerseylion109]

that kid should really stop giving interviews before he gets charged like the rest of them.

 

[MtNittany]

To me, Davis' story line goes like this: "I saw that Piazza was quite intoxicated and hurting. I told everyone that he needed medical help from trained doctors and emergency care specialists, but nobody listened to me. So, I walked away and am quite content in my actions of letting him die."

So what you're saying is that another PA prosecutor's office has a flawed star witness? Like that matters.