18 PSU frat brothers charged with manslaughter...

[Chickenman Testa]

The property value and public opinion points are simple. If this was 25 years ago, no one would care. The stakes are much more litigious and higher now. Back then, heart strings weren't as easily plucked as they are now, and public opinion meant a letter to the editor, not countless tweets of wanting life in prison for these Beta kids (as well as some assuming they're rapists as well). The fraternities are defenseless right now. I don't know about you, but I prefer fair fights.

Fair fights like rich kids all over the place getting off because their families can afford the best lawyers, but poor ghetto kids going to jail for minor stuff because they're stuck with brain-dead public defenders?

Fraternities have more than enough financial muscle and political pull to make fights fair (e.g. The lifelong connections and networking pro-frat people are always bragging about). Just quit being rule-ignoring dumbasses and the public eye wouldn't be focused on them.

 

[WTNuke]

The property value and public opinion points are simple. If this was 25 years ago, no one would care. The stakes are much more litigious and higher now. Back then, heart strings weren't as easily plucked as they are now, and public opinion meant a letter to the editor, not countless tweets of wanting life in prison for these Beta kids (as well as some assuming they're rapists as well). The fraternities are defenseless right now. I don't know about you, but I prefer fair fights.

I think the fight has been unfair for a long time, with fraternities having more power than is warranted. People in the community haven't seen any benefit from the frats, and at this point the community has the money and ability to balance the scale. If anything I think it has become fair because they can't hide bad behavior as easily as they used to. But that's a biased opinion.

 

[MtNittany]

Fair fights like rich kids all over the place getting off because their families can afford the best lawyers, but poor ghetto kids going to jail for minor stuff because they're stuck with brain-dead public defenders?

Fraternities have more than enough financial muscle and political pull to make fights fair (e.g. The lifelong connections and networking pro-frat people are always bragging about). Just quit being rule-ignoring dumbasses and the public eye wouldn't be focused on them.

Exactly how long has the "Man" had his thumb down on you? You'd think you'd have wriggled free by now.

 

[MtNittany]

I think the fight has been unfair for a long time, with fraternities having more power than is warranted. People in the community haven't seen any benefit from the frats, and at this point the community has the money and ability to balance the scale. If anything I think it has become fair because they can't hide bad behavior as easily as they used to. But that's a biased opinion.

Nope. Nowadays, the power lies in social media and the jury is in - people hate fraternities. Everyone talks about rich kids and fraternities. While SAE, Beta, maybe KDR had that reputation back in the day, I'm sure not all those kids were rich. I lived in one of the nicest houses imaginable w/ 40 guys, and didn't know any of them to be rich. The thought never crossed my mind. The guy that was behind in his dues was as accepted as the President of the house.

 

[Bob78]

I think the fight has been unfair for a long time, with fraternities having more power than is warranted. People in the community haven't seen any benefit from the frats, and at this point the community has the money and ability to balance the scale. If anything I think it has become fair because they can't hide bad behavior as easily as they used to. But that's a biased opinion.

I don't know if the local residents in the areas where the off-campus fraternities are have seen any detriment for certain, but the perception that they have not seen any benefit is one that can be addressed by the fraternities themselves. Be of service to their communities. I don't know exactly how or what should be done, but engaging the local residents in what would be of use to them is a start. Could be things as simple as lawn care for residents who request it, for example. Keeping the streets and walkways and lawns clean and clear of trash is another example. Simple, easy-to-accomplish stuff that works toward changing the perceptions and feelings. More neighborhood involvement could make the fraternity membership think twice about screwing up and imposing negative behaviors on those neighbors.

Again, I don't know to what extent these things have been tried already. But something isn't clicking to the extent it should overall, imo. So go back and take another look at it, re-think it, re-address it with the university and the neighbors. Help the fraternities with leadership development. The national orgs do this, but the reinforcement of that education needs to be regular and frequent on-campus as well. No one wants to see the frat. chapter President be part of making these bad decisions wrt hazing and drinking, etc. Help them learn to develop the tools to address that, stand up to it, fight through the peer pressure, etc. And if that changes who decides to join fraternities and their reasons for joining or not, that is ultimately a good thing. That's how the culture ultimately changes.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Exactly how long has the "Man" had his thumb down on you? You'd think you'd have wriggled free by now.

As a white, well-educated lawyer, I am "the Man", and while I'm not a Social Justice Warrior, I have developed empathy for others and know how the system is tilted for some and against others.

I, for one, am not going to carry water for these dumbasses like you are desperately doing here. They'll be lawyered-up just fine.

Just from the comments of guys in fraternities that actually do put in place sensible risk management procedures - whether mandated by their schools ortheir National, or because they've got brains in their heads, it seems clear that BETA at Penn State deserves the grilling they are getting. The dipshit frat president and rush manager even predicted months before in texts that their "gauntlet" could go bad.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

I don't know if the local residents in the areas where the off-campus fraternities are have seen any detriment for certain, but the perception that they have not seen any benefit is one that can be addressed by the fraternities themselves. Be of service to their communities. I don't know exactly how or what should be done, but engaging the local residents in what would be of use to them is a start. Could be things as simple as lawn care for residents who request it, for example. Keeping the streets and walkways and lawns clean and clear of trash is another example. Simple, easy-to-accomplish stuff that works toward changing the perceptions and feelings. More neighborhood involvement could make the fraternity membership think twice about screwing up and imposing negative behaviors on those neighbors.

Again, I don't know to what extent these things have been tried already. But something isn't clicking to the extent it should overall, imo. So go back and take another look at it, re-think it, re-address it with the university and the neighbors. Help the fraternities with leadership development. The national orgs do this, but the reinforcement of that education needs to be regular and frequent on-campus as well. No one wants to see the frat. chapter President be part of making these bad decisions wrt hazing and drinking, etc. Help them learn to develop the tools to address that, stand up to it, fight through the peer pressure, etc. And if that changes who decides to join fraternities and their reasons for joining or not, that is ultimately a good thing. That's how the culture ultimately changes.

Good post.

My brother was an SAE at Penn in the 80s and they did a lot of community outreach - let's just put it this way, West Philly residents and largely white undergrads can be a very toxic brew if the undergrads just do what they want.

 

[interrobang]

Anyone notice the irony that some of the frat brothers are in trouble for not calling 911, yet Mike McQueary was given $12 million for not calling 911?

 

[MtNittany]

As a white, well-educated lawyer, I am "the Man", and while I'm not a Social Justice Warrior, I have developed empathy for others and know how the system is tilted for some and against others.

I, for one, am not going to carry water for these dumbasses like you are desperately doing here. They'll be lawyered-up just fine.

Just from the comments of guys in fraternities that actually do put in place sensible risk management procedures - whether mandated by their schools ortheir National, or because they've got brains in their heads, it seems clear that BETA at Penn State deserves the grilling they are getting. The dipshit frat president and rush manager even predicted months before in texts that their "gauntlet" could go bad.

Beta deserves whatever fate awaits them. As I have said before, I just wish the charges against the accused were tried in a courtroom, not on twitter.

 

[WTNuke]

I don't know if the local residents in the areas where the off-campus fraternities are have seen any detriment for certain, but the perception that they have not seen any benefit is one that can be addressed by the fraternities themselves. Be of service to their communities. I don't know exactly how or what should be done, but engaging the local residents in what would be of use to them is a start. Could be things as simple as lawn care for residents who request it, for example. Keeping the streets and walkways and lawns clean and clear of trash is another example. Simple, easy-to-accomplish stuff that works toward changing the perceptions and feelings. More neighborhood involvement could make the fraternity membership think twice about screwing up and imposing negative behaviors on those neighbors.

Again, I don't know to what extent these things have been tried already. But something isn't clicking to the extent it should overall, imo. So go back and take another look at it, re-think it, re-address it with the university and the neighbors. Help the fraternities with leadership development. The national orgs do this, but the reinforcement of that education needs to be regular and frequent on-campus as well. No one wants to see the frat. chapter President be part of making these bad decisions wrt hazing and drinking, etc. Help them learn to develop the tools to address that, stand up to it, fight through the peer pressure, etc. And if that changes who decides to join fraternities and their reasons for joining or not, that is ultimately a good thing. That's how the culture ultimately changes.

Noise and property damage are the primary detriment. I wouldn't classify most fraternities as consisting of good neighbors. I think the people in that neighborhood may be past the point of hoping for change and outreach and are content to watch the system slowly burn itself down.

 

[MtNittany]

Anyone notice the irony that some of the frat brothers are in trouble for not calling 911, yet Mike McQueary was given $12 million for not calling 911?

College kids/Grad Asst's see 55 year old men raping 13 y/o boys every weekend apparently. How often do they see a passed out kid who fell down the steps? Ever??!!

 

[MtNittany]

Noise and property damage are the primary detriment. I wouldn't classify most fraternities as consisting of good neighbors. I think the people in that neighborhood may be past the point of hoping for change and outreach and are content to watch the system slowly burn itself down.

Speaking in the past again, but we were great neighbors. Pledges mowed neighbor's lawns and trimmed hedges when we knew they needed help. I think our house (being the furthest away from campus) was in a different neighborhood, but the neighbor's opinions of us was always on our minds. We knew we had a great thing and didn't want to f**k it up in other words.

 

[MtNittany]

Speaking in the past again, but we were great neighbors. Pledges mowed neighbor's lawns and trimmed hedges when we knew they needed help. I think our house (being the furthest away from campus) was in a different neighborhood, but the neighbor's opinions of us was always on our minds. We knew we had a great thing and didn't want to f**k it up in other words.

In fact, we had a Neighbor's Party (jacket and tie) every fall and invited them all. We would get 25 or 30 to come out. The Hickey's living across the street had nothing to do w/ this, and this had no effect on our keg prices, btw. Once they left it turned into the usual, but...

 

[christoph]

At 18 you are an adult. As an adult, if you in any way aid a reckless act, or don't try mitigate one you witness, and it results in a death or serious injury , you are liable for your action or inaction. You didn't do what a reasonable person would do i.e. You are negligent. I see nothing wrong with that and all of us are held to that principal every day of our lives.

 

[WTNuke]

Speaking in the past again, but we were great neighbors. Pledges mowed neighbor's lawns and trimmed hedges when we knew they needed help. I think our house (being the furthest away from campus) was in a different neighborhood, but the neighbor's opinions of us was always on our minds. We knew we had a great thing and didn't want to f**k it up in other words.

Yeah that's about as in the past as you can get at this point. Especially for the houses back in the Highland neighborhood. That reputation might be damaged way beyond repair.

 

[lj4heisman1]

In an alternate world, the school would allow kegs on every other floor in every dorm on Friday nights + Big kegger at the HUB/Lawn on Saturdays w/ campus bands.

I wonder...

yes we had those dorm parties in the common room when I was a frosh, good times

 

[manatree]

The fraternities are defenseless right now. I don't know about you, but I prefer fair fights.

The fraternities are not defenseless. As long as they control their membership, they have the power to control the behaviour of their members. It's a matter of them deciding what their priorities are. Adapt, change and survive or continue to ignore warnings and second (third, fourth, etc.) chances and get shut down. There have been many wake up call events in the past (KDR Facebook scandal, the death of Joe Dado, etc.) that the Greek community ignored. Even the wake up call event of Piazza's death has been ignored by some in the Greek community. Not only have some been caught violating the restrictions that they agreed to, an IFC official sent around an email listing ways to skirt the rules.

I have worked with many students over the years that were members of the Greek community. Their experiences have run the gamut from very positive to very negative. Do I want to see the social fraternities and sororities shut down? No. However it is up to them to assess or values and decide if they want to change and survive or hold out and die.

 

[mgkpsu]

According to testimony and video it's worse than this. At least one brother thought they should call 911. He was assaulted and told he didn't know what he was talking about by other brothers and the house VP.

He got pushed by the little wiener-looking kid who is probably a buck forty soaking wet, and could have called himself. He's no hero to me.

 

[mgkpsu]

I think the fight has been unfair for a long time, with fraternities having more power than is warranted. People in the community haven't seen any benefit from the frats, and at this point the community has the money and ability to balance the scale. If anything I think it has become fair because they can't hide bad behavior as easily as they used to. But that's a biased opinion.

Did you ever hear of Greek Sweep?
Have you ever seen the houses decorated with lights?
Do you know the roots of THON?
Do you think apartment/house parties are any safer, or that a kid's friends care about his/her grades?

You made a very ignorant, stupid blanket statement.

 

[OldTiredLion]

ABC's World News Tonight just did a segment on this story.

Blood in the water and the media is gonna pounce, just like November 2011.

 

[jerseylion109]

no paterno=this story dies down in about 3 days

 

[mal106]

Its a new day and age here boys., I know a person charged here and no way a ~rich~ kid..., They did bad. terrible for all involved, alot of lives potentially ruined over this.

 

[First Last]

Anyone notice the irony that some of the frat brothers are in trouble for not calling 911, yet Mike McQueary was given $12 million for not calling 911?

It seems one of the brothers or pledges was smart enough to realize that they needed to call 911, but dumb enough not to do so. Has he been charged as well, or is he being rewarded like McQueary?

 

[mn78psu83]

It seems one of the brothers or pledges was smart enough to realize that they needed to call 911, but dumb enough not to do so. Has he been charged as well, or is he being rewarded like McQueary?

No. He is not one of the 18 charged.

 

[redbyrds]

No. He is not one of the 18 charged.

He just seems to be just beginning his personal media tour with his version of the story.

 

[mn78psu83]

He just seems to be just beginning his personal media tour with his version of the story.

I saw one of his interviews this morning on ABC Good Morning America.

 

[AWS1022]

No. He is not one of the 18 charged.

Give him $12 million!

 

[katchthis]

Was there a conspiracy to do nothing?

It seems like more or less yes. Multiple brothers discussed the kids situation. And instead of calling 911, they punched him in the gut, insulted him, and laughed at him. There seemed to be a group of the elder brothers saying do nothing. There was a collective effort to expunge texts etc.

 

[katchthis]

These are tough situations to judge. On one hand the law says that we are adults on our 18th birthdays, while recent medical research suggests that our brains (and particularly the part which rationalizes the sort of behavior that goes on in frat houses) aren't fully developed until our early-mid twenties. How do we properly hand out punishment in the face of new scientific evidence?

Your f87cked. There is no way to have a gradient of punishment based on your brain maturation, and it's tolerance to risky behavior.

 

[katchthis]

no paterno=this story dies down in about 3 days

Media will be hot on it on the National Scene until a new big story hits, and they move on.

 

[mn78psu83]

Your f87cked. There is no way to have a gradient of punishment based on your brain maturation, and it's tolerance to risky behavior.

Caleb Fairley attempted to get a new trial on the basis of this. No merit.

 

[Pinkhippo PeanutButter]

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_9617fc2f-4f35-5b63-b9c9-c529cc330bf0.html

This all started long long ago. The frats do some lip service, and then find workarounds.

 

[chrisrn1965]

Yeah, they were regular Florence Nightengales

What a punch in the stomach, pouring cold water, and slapping the face are not evidenced-based interventions for traumatic brain injury and a ruptured spleen?

 

[no1lion99]

Anyone notice the irony that some of the frat brothers are in trouble for not calling 911, yet Mike McQueary was given $12 million for not calling 911?

Posts like this demonstrate you have no idea what Mike's case was about.

 

[no1lion99]

He got pushed by the little wiener-looking kid who is probably a buck forty soaking wet, and could have called himself. He's no hero to me.

I didn't say he was a hero. I said he was apparently the only thing remotely close to a human being in that house that night.

 

[jerseylion109]

why does this brother keep going on ABC to do interviews? Yes he recognized that Tim needed help but he STILL did nothing to help. He could have called the police, taken him himself, or wathced him all night but he didnt do any of that.

 

[no1lion99]

That being said, the guy knew what he was getting into, and a bunch of stupid drunk frat boys did the wrong thing by not calling 911. They didn't purposely throw him down the steps nor did they physically hold him down and make him drink in excess. If they did, throw them in jail and let Bubba take care of them.

I agree that they were supidly neglegent, but I don't think that their names should be drug through the mud or the charges should ruin their lives forever. Again, just my opinion.

I've since grown up and realized that SOME frat boys are ok.

Some people in every large group are ok and some aren't. I too avoided frats because in my head, drinking old stale food mushed in a blender, or being publicly humiliated isn't any kind of bonding mechanism, but rather childish behavior. The world is moving past this.

No they didn't throw him down the stairs but they actively chose not to get a seriously injured person medical assistance, and may have even made it worse by shaking and hitting him, according to medical experts. I don't think anyone is arguing that many many people partake in behavior like the binge drinking and general partying, but the man had an obvious abdomen wound, an obvious head wound, and then was clearly in serious jeopardy at 10am when they found him and they STILL waited to call medical help.

Someone died, in large part due to their actions. I could care less about their names being dragged through the mud, or what it does to their later lives, because they still have a chance to live them. Piazza wasn't given that chance. As you said, just my opinion, but they are dead to rights on several criminal violations.

 

[Delco Lion]

why does this brother keep going on ABC to do interviews? Yes he recognized that Tim needed help but he STILL did nothing to help. He could have called the police, taken him himself, or wathced him all night but he didnt do any of that.

He was on Fox news this AM. They called it the worst case of its kind ever.

 

[BobPSU92]

He was on Fox news this AM. They called it the worst case of its kind ever.

WORST. CASE. EVER.

SOCIAL. MEDIA. OUTRAGE.

 

[BobPSU92]

why does this brother keep going on ABC to do interviews? Yes he recognized that Tim needed help but he STILL did nothing to help. He could have called the police, taken him himself, or wathced him all night but he didnt do any of that.

He was on Fox news this AM. They called it the worst case of its kind ever.

I missed these interviews. Is there a link? What did the kid say?