18 PSU frat brothers charged with manslaughter...
- Thread starter tboyer
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Philly.com detailing the events of the night. A few more details I have not seen elsewhere in the article. http://www.philly.com/philly/educat...heta-Pi-fraternity-charged-Centre-County.html
I think they should go away. Quite honestly, they were a joke when I was there 30 years ago and it looks like they still are.
Understood. I was never in a frat but attended a couple of parties. Begging a "brother" to get me a beer wasn't my thing. I grew up poor, put myself through college, and was way too proud to kiss anyone's ass for anything. Especially self entitled rich frat boys.
That being said, the guy knew what he was getting into, and a bunch of stupid drunk frat boys did the wrong thing by not calling 911. They didn't purposely throw him down the steps nor did they physically hold him down and make him drink in excess. If they did, throw them in jail and let Bubba take care of them.
I agree that they were supidly neglegent, but I don't think that their names should be drug through the mud or the charges should ruin their lives forever. Again, just my opinion.
I've since grown up and realized that SOME frat boys are ok.
Frats should just go away. I thought they were a joke 30 years ago, and it looks like they still are. We partied just fine without having to kiss some jerks a-ss to get accepted.
Except that you aren't. You cannot drink at 18, for example. Which is part of the issue here.
It was mostly a rehash of the presentment: he talked to a few people about calling 911, and they ignored him, and then I guess he went back to partying, and now he's apparently awesome.
I did too. This all was big, big news on all of the news outlets this morning.
The odd part about the interview (with Robin Roberts) was that he was asked how well he knew the student who died. He basically said that he didn't know him well, but that they had talked for about 20 min earlier that night and "connected". Roberts' reply was "so you knew him well, then." You cannot make this stuff up.
My opinion is that I'll wait until the trial(s). I really don't like this new prosecutorial tactic of trying cases in the media and poisoning any possible jury. If they are guilty, tho, they deserve what they get. What I have read is appalling. But again, I will not pass blanket judgement on frats (though I was not a frat member--excepting an honor frat) on the basis of this incident. Or on the accused--until they have their day in court.
BTW, I do think PSU was right to hammer this frat, based on prior issues. I'm not anywhere near as sure that they should have extended this to the entire Greek community. And I still wonder if the fact that some of these properties are very valuable doesn't play into some of the decisions here.
Awful. Just awful. There are many screw ups here, but the first one is the amount of booze that these brothers know they are going to be giving the pledges. If you know that these guys are going to have the opportunity/goal to consume that much, in that short of a time span, you need to have safety precautions in place.
Also, and I think this needs to be said, but you have to look out for your own well being. I know the game was to get hazed, drink a ton, get laid (if possible) and have a general good time, but these young men and our deceased just threw caution to the wind in the name of temporary gains. You can't do that when it comes to your health, life, or freedom. I would never let someone else determine what happens to me, as our deceased had to do when he drank way too much, and as these young men are about to find out when the state prosecutor/jurors/judges of the criminal side of the law get their claws into them.
Also, and I think this needs to be said, but you have to look out for your own well being. I know the game was to get hazed, drink a ton, get laid (if possible) and have a general good time, but these young men and our deceased just threw caution to the wind in the name of temporary gains. You can't do that when it comes to your health, life, or freedom. I would never let someone else determine what happens to me, as our deceased had to do when he drank way too much, and as these young men are about to find out when the state prosecutor/jurors/judges of the criminal side of the law get their claws into them.
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I think back to a few episodes in my college days and I'm glad I have a weak stomach and puke easily
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
It's eight members being charged with manslaughter right? Not 18 as posted in the title of this thread?
We need some OUTRAGE.
from Washington, DC and North Korea to grab the headlines. Shouldn't be long.
At the end of the day, if a subject wants to be put through hazing and an exorbitant amount of drinking and physical activity that could have harmful, or fatal effects, that's on that person. I'm sorry. Sure, no doubt, the frat members hold responsibility and culpability, but nobody made him drink like that. It's like student athletes that bitch and moan they don't get paid, well you signed up for it. If you don't like it, don't do it.
Sure, and there are laws that will come in to play regarding that, but in the bigger picture I am not so sure that was the biggest issue (it's really just an arbitrary number anyway). This wasn't someone who threw a graduation party and forgot to keep the booze away from uncle billy who sometimes gets carried away and drinks too much or the local watering hole who served one too many to a frequent patron thinking that he appeared normal. No, there was a plan here to get/make these pledges go BAC 0.40(+) hammered and everyone knew that could be very, very dangerous. It's the equivalent of having a planned gasoline fight; you can do it, but you better make darn sure it is safe to do so if you are the organizer and supplier of same because the possibility of injury is obvious.
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They all deserve the charges they've received and I'm glad this is getting the attention it is. Maybe it'll bring some far-overdue change to the culture of those fraternities.
I know. Sometimes I feel guilty about bringing up facts here. So many disregard facts. I guess I'm a tool for being so damn fussy.
And the frat brothers knew what they signed up for when they violated both the law and their own fraternity rules.....
Last I looked Piazza didn't sign up to die.
This isn't just about the kid drinking on his own. When he was discovered the next morning, he was still unresponsive, struggling with breathing and had a serious head trauma.
That's called dying.
Yet they moved his body around, tried to dress him, and finally called an ambulance 42 minutes after he was discovered.
They even admitted in text message exchanges that he looked dead but still waited to call for help.
Why?
Because they were more concerned about the consequences of their own actions than the kid's life.
People shouldn't be making excuses for the brothers. By the next morning it wasn't a question anymore if he was okay. They knew damn well his horrible condition, and tried convince themselves out of calling for help when his life was clearly on the line.
Who knows if 40 minutes would have saved his life. But it sure shows how the brothers were thinking during the situation and it's not that of empathy or genuine care about his life.
Yes I agree with you and the frat deserves most of the blame b/c they knew the rules and someone should have been more self aware. But, even a young man, 18 years old knows that you are risking your life drinking to that extent....had they called 911 immediately after the fall and when he hit his head, had he survived, who knows what damage he still would have sustained...I mean the lack of accountability is typical in today's society. So change the hazing game...instead of drinking, let's say a ritual was to juggle and throw knives in the air and you have to catch them without dropping any. If Piazza took a knife to the chest and died, how is he not to blame as well for tempting fate, for playing with your life. It's bad all around.
There is a whole laundry list of charges.
Here is a link to the Grand Jury Presentment - Charges on the first several pages.
Eight were charged with Involuntary manslaughter. According to PA Law:
§ 2504. Involuntary manslaughter.
(a) General rule.--A person is guilty of involuntary manslaughter when as a direct result of the doing of an unlawful act in a reckless or grossly negligent manner, or the doing of a lawful act in a reckless or grossly negligent manner, he causes the death of another person.
(b) Grading.--Involuntary manslaughter is a misdemeanor of the first degree. Where the victim is under 12 years of age and is in the care, custody or control of the person who caused the death, involuntary manslaughter is a felony of the second degree.
(July 6, 1995, P.L.251, No.31, eff. 60 days)
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Just burn down Penn State already. The entire university community is guilty. It's our culture.
He is to blame. His punishment was death. Other people are to blame as well (stand judgement) We shall see what their punishment will be. Not death. So they have that going for them.
Assuming they all drank roughly the same amount, and he didn't appear to be a small guy, how come he was so much more intoxicated than the other 13 pledges? If there had been any testimony about others getting injured, passing out, puking, etc., I am sure they would have included it in the presentment. Not that it matters ultimately, but just another oddity in this sad case.
When I was in a Fraternity we always had (at least) one stone cold sober Executive Board member at any event, and in addition we were lucky to have some members who just plain didn't drink. Moreover, we had a rule that if you puked/passed out at an event, in addition to being drawn on and topped like a sandwich, you weren't allowed to drink, and instead had to work door/bar/etc. for the entire next event. And in extreme cases we actually didn't allow some of the consistently sloppy individuals to drink for weeks at a time. It's really "Fraternity Risk Management 101", and the basics have been in place for decades. Stupid, stupid kids!
I guess my question wasn't stated correctly. Is the manslaughter charge in reference to getting him hammered or for not calling 911
It was noted that the pledges were having a hard time walking after the gauntlet. Pledges were drinking as many as 5 drinks, in two minutes at a station. Also noted that video showed somebody else falling down the stairs.
So this wasn't a completely freakish accident with these types of conditions.
I'm not an attorney and it's best if one chimes in here, but to this layperson not calling 911 would seem to be a link in the chain of negligence related to and following the unlawful act of furnishing alcohol to a minor and therefore part of the Involuntary manslaughter charge. Again, it's best for an attorney to clarify. It surely will be part of the Wrongful Death claim forthcoming in the civil suit. @Chickenman Testa - help us out here esquire Testa.
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
We need some OUTRAGE.
Don't worry - I booked and paid for only two airline tickets (wife and me) but plan on taking my toddler and infant on board as well (I will demand they each get a seat and free WiFi). Hope someone has a phone handy because I'm going to put on a show when they try to force me off the plane or deny my boarding!
It always makes me laugh to read posts like this. Some dude who was not in a fraternity, knows virtually nothing about what it is like to live in a fraternity (as if there was some uniform, monolithic "fraternity environment"), and nonetheless feels fully qualified to expound at length on the subject. Color me shocked that you "fail to see the value" Greek life provides to the University. .
Just burn down Penn State already. The entire university community is guilty. It's our culture.
I have read/heard that reaction in several places over the last couple of days.
I wasn't into the frat scene. I knew several guys who were, and posters here who were, and enjoyed their experience, so there must be some positives to frats but if they disappeared, I don't think the overall PSU experience would be lacking. Just my opinion.
The usual OUTRAGE.
and passing judgment from people to make themselves feel better. While tragic, it's ridiculous for people to take the position of moral superiority towards Penn State as if this couldn't happen and hasn't happened elsewhere. That doesn't excuse what happened at Penn State, but it is not a unique problem sadly.Like you, I wasn't into the frat scene. I also wasn't a drinker in college and still am not. Outside of the rare sip or two of wine, I never touch the stuff. I also was more of a nerd and not much of a party type in college.
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
The usual OUTRAGE.
Like you, I wasn't into the frat scene. I also wasn't a drinker in college and still am not. Outside of the rare sip or two of wine, I never touch the stuff. I also was more of a nerd and not much of party type in college.
But, drinking and partying aren't all frats do (right?).
my initial impression hasn't changed- these guys acted irresponsibly -and maybe criminally- and they ought to be held responsible
but the idea that anybody else should be impacted is just another sign of what a ninny society this country has turned into
but the idea that anybody else should be impacted is just another sign of what a ninny society this country has turned into
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