.

[Nitt1300]

I watched episode 1 last night and was stunned at the way this disaster was handled by the authorities. Even a Soviet state should have more compassion for the people they put in harms way.

governments look out for themselves- all of them do

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Awesome. I've never been to Poland but my wife visited there in the late 1990s. She told me she tipped a waiter $5 and the waiter started crying. On the fur hats, I bought three of them. My interpreter shielded us from the normal vendors and took us to some place with, like, 100 small wooden huts. At one hut, they were selling the hats. We bought three, rabbit fur, for less than $15. They had mink and others but we just wanted them for show.

Our first trip, we flew over on Aeroflot. It was a 747 out of JFK. Half of the toilets quit working so the plane smelled like woman's time-of-the-month for the second half of the trip. The USA boxing team was on the flight. (the last time I was there I ran into a guy working out in a PSU t-shirt at the Holiday Inn Moscow gym, he was a PSU Basketball player playing for a team in Turkey in Moscow for a game). Anyway, they had several old box TV's on a piece of wood and were showing black and white short clips: two russian guys always trying to get out of govt work groups. it was kind of like watching laurel and hardy. But one clip was meant to teach americans about social norms. One of these norms was the pecking order on who gets to sit. the priority went something like this: handicapped, preg women, old women, women, old men, young men. So, a week later, I am at the airport in Kaliningrad with my wife and another couple having a beer at the empty airport lounge. After a while, I feel a rapping on my chair. I look down and there is a 40-ish guy lightly tapping my chair with his foot. I look around and the place is full with no place to sit and he's standing there with his mom (by appearance). I stand up and give her my seat. The two are very gracious. In my next few visits, I see this play out several times as people are reminded to give up their seat on the bus, train, or whatever.

Finally, the last time I was there, my driver and interpreter (who was also a guide at the Kremlin museum and gave us an inside tour) stopped to let her off a few blocks from our hotel (the Kremlin Marriott Triviskya). We decided to get off and go to dinner and then walk back to the hotel (the hotel always took our passports while we were there, for some reason). We asked her for a dinner reservation. She said there was a new, upscale place that just opened nearby that was popular with americans. We said that sounded good and asked the name. "Fridays" was the answer. We ended up going to the Pushkin Cafe. We each had an appetizer, full meal, coffee, a desert and drink and the bill came to ~ $36 for the four of us. Pushkin is a famous Russian poet from pre-revolution, old-russia vintage.

Finally, we had cause to use the Russian medical system. Of course, everything is free. As a result, their medicine was more of a "prove you do not have X ailment" instead of prove that you do. So you could walk in at any time and get whatever you wanted. But they basically get you a checkup to see what is not wrong with you as opposed to looking at what is wrong with you. As such, doctors were a dime a dozen. Realizing the medical doctors had a much lower public profile than Drs. here, we asked about the pecking order of jobs. Our interpreter said this: Party Official, Military Officer, Writer/Poet/Actor/Singer, Engineer, Professor, Doctor. That was only one person's opinion but striking in how different it is from the US.

I went back to Warsaw, and our village about 10-15 miles northwest from Warsaw along the river, in 1997. Took the same bus - the H Bus from Warsaw, stopped at the main village intersection, and wandered around the village for a couple of hours. Got a lot of dirty looks because no tourist visits there. My old nursery/kinder school was the village library, but it still had the old play toys out back. Our apt house was now a plant nursery and I couldn’t enter the grounds unfortunately. I strolled around back to the woods to our hidden pond where all the village kids would come to play hockey. It was very cool. Amazing how much bigger a place looks to a child. The long walk from our apt to school was actually only about 7-8 minutes. Seemed like an eternity on short legs.

Young Polish Women are gorgeous, by the way. Long legs, Slavic cheekbones

 

[bwifan]

On a related note was just reading a news article in the local paper about TMI getting ready to close in June.

 

[Nitt1300]

In general, you are correct. But to be clear, the reactor was never out of control. The Fukushima reactor shutdown when the earthquake hit, but the reactor still produced decay heat for quite some time. Just to give the board an idea, as soon as a reactor trips, the decay heat level is ~5% (of ~2300 MW). You will be ~0.5% after 2 days. But it takes closer to 60 days to get to ~0.1%. Later when the Tsunami hit, it wiped out the diesel generators, and they lost the ability to remove the decay heat. Eventually the fuel got hot enough that it melted.

Both the earthquake and the tsunami were beyond the design bases of the plant.

yeah, who could have expected an earthquake in Japan?

 

[Obliviax]

yeah, who could have expected an earthquake in Japan?

it really wasn't the earthquake. it was the quake in combo with the Tsunami. The quake was anticipated and remediated. But the tsunami flooded the generator (diesel?) . That cut all power and the core was no longer being cooled...that is what caused the explosions. LIke many disasters, the 737 MAX recently, singular events are anticipated and remediated. It is a series of unanticipated events in succession that cause disasters today, for the most part.

 

[pandaczar12]

yeah, who could have expected an earthquake in Japan?

I don't think they expected one that strong, or they would have designed the plant to withstand it. But it really wasn't the earthquake that did the plant in.

 

[pandaczar12]

But the tsunami flooded the generator (diesel?) . That cut all power and the core was no longer being cooled...that is what caused the explosions.

Yes, they use very large diesel generators.

The fuel is clad in a zirconium alloy, and when exposed to steam there is a reaction that releases hydrogen. The hydrogen ignited causing the explosion.

The lastest generation of nuclear reactors do not rely on forced cooling, and use only natural circulation to remove decay heat. So in the case of Fukushima, they would have been fine without power.

 

[Nitt1300]

I don't think they expected one that strong, or they would have designed the plant to withstand it. But it really wasn't the earthquake that did the plant in.

I know, but had the plant been designed for a more extreme event it could have survived.
Economics play too big a role when private industry runs these things- look at the Navy and it's safety record with nuclear power- because safety was the prime concern, not dollars (or yen).

 

[pandaczar12]

I know, but had the plant been designed for a more extreme event it could have survived.
Economics play too big a role when private industry runs these things- look at the Navy and it's safety record with nuclear power- because safety was the prime concern, not dollars (or yen).

The plant obviously was over-engineered, as it survived the earthquake pretty well. The problem was that it was hit with the Tsunami later. So it wasn't so much the plant design, it was the location. Had the plant been located in Kansas, there would have been no issue.

Safety is without a doubt the primary concern with commercial nuclear power. It's not really fair to compare Navy and civilian applications. The Naval reactors are 1/10 the size. And we are only talking the US navy obviously. Compare that to US commercial power, there was one incident at TMI. They ruined their plant, and essentially no radiation was released to the public. The lessons learned from TMI helped improve both the Navy and commercial plants. One could argue that TMI has helped keep the US navy's record clean.

 

[Post_ShockTherapy_MackDaddy]

I see you didn't respond to anything in my previous post... a predictable move, your only option really. You know I tried to make this easy on you, when in my first post I told you that you were completely wrong. You've done nothing but waste your time and prove me right.

1) Are you insinuating that me and BBrown are the same poster? or are you just confused?
2) You should read an entire post before attempting to respond. The original topic was Chernobyl. Someone else brought up Fukushima. It should be pretty clear why I didn't bring up USA... Unlike you, I try to stay on topic. US nuclear power was not relevant to the discussion.
3) You obviously don't understand the definition of the word "disaster". While you may not understand nuclear science, I assume you can at least use google. Search for "nuclear disasters", and right next to a picture of the Chernobyl disaster, you get TMI "Accident". Let me google that for you.
4) All three incidents were not worse than Authorities said they were. You provide no proof otherwise. In my last post, I've shown what the impact to the public was from TMI. Please try to keep up.
5) Everything I post seems odd and confusing to you because you are way out of your league on this topic. Stay in your lane bro.

When you reply, please try to stay on topic, and please take your meds beforehand.

Like I said, and I will type LOUDLY this time, the discussion was that the disasters were WORSE than the AUTHORITIES initially told us. Your defense (weak as it was), was that it was Japan and USSR.

But, but, but, but, but...MET ED lied to us, as well. TMI was MUCH MUCH worse than what the AUTHORITIES said.

Everything you said has nothing to do with the discussion, apeman.

Why did MET ED lie? Why was it worse than what they told us????

 

[Post_ShockTherapy_MackDaddy]

[QUOTE="pandaczar12, post: 4137613, The problem was that it was hit with the Tsunami later. So it wasn't so much the plant design, it was the location. Had the plant been located in Kansas, there would have been no issue.[/QUOTE]

THE problem, dipsh1t, was the BACKUP generators were on the ground floor! So, it WAS the design, mental midget.

Nothing like having backup generators on the GROUND FLOOR in a region KNOWN for tsunamis.

Guess all those PHD engineers that designed and ran the plant never thought about it, huh????

Stupid apeman @pandaczar12

 

[diontechristmas]

Not poorly trained, poorly informed. As stated above, there was no internet back then and the Soviets had total control of the flow of information (news, science, etc.).


True, and the methods they use to reinforce this thinking is quite tragic.


LOL - I had many similar experiences as you describe in the airport and above. I worked on a large aluminum plant project that was installed just outside of Ekatinburg in the early 1990s. Between 1989 and 1992, I spent one week out of six in the USSR for meetings on this project. Most of these were in Moscow and sometimes we would go to the Urals and visit the site. Occasionally, we would visit a remote region of the USSR to evaluate another potential project to convert defense plants to produce consumer goods.

Naturally, I got to know a lot of citizens on a personal level. It was crazy how they lived two lives. One behind their walls where they could speak freely and live how they chose and one where they were in public/work settings and they had to comply. I could go on forever with examples, but I am certain that the people that went into that plant truly felt that they had no choice. And, trust me, there is a very specific social status system in place among the non-elites as well.

I lived in the Urals area for nearly one year as we commissioned this plant. It was impossible to get the people to work overtime even if our company would absorb the labor cost. We learned that they had to shop and tend to their gardens after work in order to "survive". This was summer season.

When winter rolled around, I thought we could get some overtime going since gardening duty was over. It was just the opposite, they had to shop even harder to make ends meet. Your description about the shoes is spot on. None of the stores had any signage to identify them as stores and you had no idea what you would find when you went in. You simply got in line and hoped for the best. Long lines meant something good but a real possibility of them being "out" when your turn came. Medium lines (maybe good, maybe have when I get there). Imagine the frustration!!

Here is a "real life" example of what the shopping experience was like in this industrial town:
Monday:
Shop A: Moldovan Brandy (quite good but unaffordable to Soviets), Fifty pound sacks of Chinese Rice, White ladies summer dresses (in winter) in two sizes only
Shop B: Beer, Mittens, Ski Poles, Oranges from Kazakhstan, Hunting Knifes
Shop C: Girls boots (size 5 & 7), Chocolates from Finland and Alternators for a Zhiguli

I will never forget the looks on our Soviet visitors' faces when we took them to a Wine and Spirits Shop (State Store back then) and to a Giant Eagle when they visit our home offices in Pittsburgh. The elder Communist Party chiefs truly thought it was staged!

Great insight

This should be taped to the forehead of every idiotic millennial who utters phrases like “late stage capitalism” and thinks socialism is an answer to anything

 

[pandaczar12]

Oh look, more fun! Although I do implore you, please keep the racist ("apeman") and derogatory ("midget") comments out of your next reply. You don't need to discriminate against anyone. Please keep this discussion between you and the voices in your head civil.

Like I said, and I will type LOUDLY this time, the discussion was that the disasters were WORSE than the AUTHORITIES initially told us. Your defense (weak as it was), was that it was Japan and USSR.

But, but, but, but, but...MET ED lied to us, as well. TMI was MUCH MUCH worse than what the AUTHORITIES said.

Everything you said has nothing to do with the discussion, apeman.

Why did MET ED lie? Why was it worse than what they told us????

What did I tell you about taking your meds before you respond? You can type as loudly as you want... but you can't change the discussion we were having, that you weren't a part of. You can't change an accident into a disaster. You can't change the fact that TMI had little to no impact on the surrounding community. You can't change the fact that you are blatantly trying to change the subject and projecting that behavior on me. You can't change the fact that I am an expert on the topic, and you are an mentally unstable male nurse.

THE problem, dipsh1t, was the BACKUP generators were on the ground floor! So, it WAS the design, mental midget.

Nothing like having backup generators on the GROUND FLOOR in a region KNOWN for tsunamis.

Guess all those PHD engineers that designed and ran the plant never thought about it, huh????

Stupid apeman @pandaczar12

It's great how after you call me names, your second sentence proves me right when you say they put the plant "in a region KNOWN for tsunamis". You do understand (oh who am I kidding?) that the plant is designed, and that design is deployed to various locations? They don't pick a location, then design a specific plant for it.

 

[Big 0]

Oh look, more fun! Although I do implore you, please keep the racist ("apeman") and derogatory ("midget") comments out of your next reply. You don't need to discriminate against anyone. Please keep this discussion between you and the voices in your head civil.



What did I tell you about taking your meds before you respond? You can type as loudly as you want... but you can't change the discussion we were having, that you weren't a part of. You can't change an accident into a disaster. You can't change the fact that TMI had little to no impact on the surrounding community. You can't change the fact that you are blatantly trying to change the subject and projecting that behavior on me. You can't change the fact that I am an expert on the topic, and you are an mentally unstable male nurse.



It's great how after you call me names, your second sentence proves me right when you say they put the plant "in a region KNOWN for tsunamis". You do understand (oh who am I kidding?) that the plant is designed, and that design is deployed to various locations? They don't pick a location, then design a specific plant for it.

Pandaczar, something tells me you may be a NucE or something similar since you make too much sense and have great knowledge of the subject at hand. At least that is what my fairly extensive training and education in nuclear and radiation physics, radiation biology and protection tell me. The Soviets were absolutely criminal in their response with regard to public health during the Chernobyl incident. It would have been simple to supply the area population with lugols solution when meltdown was imminent or in the immediate post meltdown period and then getting them the hell out of there pronto, but they did not want to alert the world that there was a significant problem with their great technology and construction prowess.

My daughter (a PhD in nuclear engineering with concentration in nuclear forensics) and I have discussed Chernobyl now and again over the years. These discussions indicate to me you have quite a bit of knowledge in the area of nuclear power and power plants.

My daughter’s advisor was the expert CNN used during the Fukushima disaster (local resource as a faculty member in NucE at GA Tech at the time) so at least they did a few things right in their reporting then.

 

[Nittany Ziggy]

Pandaczar, something tells me you may be a NucE or something similar since you make too much sense and have great knowledge of the subject at hand. At least that is what my fairly extensive training and education in nuclear and radiation physics, radiation biology and protection tell me. The Soviets were absolutely criminal in their response with regard to public health during the Chernobyl incident. It would have been simple to supply the area population with lugols solution when meltdown was imminent or in the immediate post meltdown period and then getting them the hell out of there pronto, but they did not want to alert the world that there was a significant problem with their great technology and construction prowess.

My daughter (a PhD in nuclear engineering with concentration in nuclear forensics) and I have discussed Chernobyl now and again over the years. These discussions indicate to me you have quite a bit of knowledge in the area of nuclear power and power plants.

My daughter’s advisor was the expert CNN used during the Fukushima disaster (local resource as a faculty member in NucE at GA Tech at the time) so at least they did a few things right in their reporting then.

Nice post. You must be proud of her, and, rightfully so!

 

[Nitt1300]

The plant obviously was over-engineered, as it survived the earthquake pretty well. The problem was that it was hit with the Tsunami later. So it wasn't so much the plant design, it was the location. Had the plant been located in Kansas, there would have been no issue.

Safety is without a doubt the primary concern with commercial nuclear power. It's not really fair to compare Navy and civilian applications. The Naval reactors are 1/10 the size. And we are only talking the US navy obviously. Compare that to US commercial power, there was one incident at TMI. They ruined their plant, and essentially no radiation was released to the public. The lessons learned from TMI helped improve both the Navy and commercial plants. One could argue that TMI has helped keep the US navy's record clean.

No, profit is.

 

[Nittany Ziggy]

Young Polish Women are gorgeous, by the way. Long legs, Slavic cheekbones

This is unquestionably true. I couldn't agree more!

She nicknamed the meat market in our village the “meatless meat market” because its shelves were always near empty.

Outstanding! This reminds me of the butcher shop in my former Soviet home away from home. It was a U-shaped meat display counter with beef on the left leg, fowl in the middle and pork/lamb on the right leg. It was nearly empty at all times but, on occasion, a line would form.

My curiosity caused me to walk in one day when the place was busy. I was astounded by what I saw. There were two huge tree stumps in the center of the U-shaped area and, after receiving an order for, let's say 2kg of pork, two guys would haul a complete half pig out to the tree stump and hold it over its' center. Then another guy with a razor sharp two sided axe would wail away at the carcass and try to deliver 2 kg of meat. On his back swing, his axe would be just inches from the beef butcher's head working the other side of the counter.

This was an extremely dangerous working environment when they were busy. No rhyme or reason was given to the type of cut (ribs, chops, tenderloin, etc.) that was produced by the "axe murderer". They would then throw the hunk of pork onto the scale with a 2 kg weight on the other side. If it was more than 2 kg, they went back to the stump for "trimming". It it was less, they whacked off a piece from the cut and imperiled the beef butcher's life again. At the same time, the other stump had the reverse situation going on imperiling the pork butcher's life. Truly bizarre stuff!

One time, we found some cheese that was outstanding. It was likely made from goat's milk and, definitely, imported. We were eating the cheese in our guest house and discussing what type of cheese it reminded us of. We were saying things like "it's a cross between a Fontina or Fontinella and good Italian Provolone". We asked my Soviet counterpart what type of cheese this was. I had known this guy for over 3 years by then and, for the first time, I detected him being disgusted by our behavior. He replied: "We live in Russia, cheese is fuc#ing cheese. We don't have the luxury to categorize it." He wasn't angry but he was totally struck himself by our behavior compared to their way of life. I was truly humbled and embarrased.

 

[PSU87]

No, profit is.

You're basing that statement on what exactly?
The fact that in the history of US nuclear power there's been one single incident that resulted in the release of negligible amounts of radiation?

 

[pandaczar12]

No, profit is.

Just because there was an incident 40 years ago at TMI doesn’t mean safety is not the priority in US nuclear power. What is the source of your opinion? How many commercial nuclear power plants have you worked at?

 

[christoph]

The safety features at tmi worked as designed. Core lost water, fuel rods melted, all was contained by the containment vessel. No one hurt

 

[Nitt1300]

Just because there was an incident 40 years ago at TMI doesn’t mean safety is not the priority in US nuclear power. What is the source of your opinion? How many commercial nuclear power plants have you worked at?

Marble Hill for Public Service Indiana, did the main steam and feedwater shutoff valves for Bechtel's plants in Korea- a few others.

 

[Nitt1300]

And if you maintain that the industry isn't driven first and foremost by profit, you are naïve, stupid, or a shill for the industry

And I don't think you are stupid.

 

[pandaczar12]

Marble Hill for Public Service Indiana, did the main steam and feedwater shutoff valves for Bechtel's plants in Korea- a few others.

Marble Hill never operated, and Korea isn't relevant to US nuclear power. I'm judging by this response that you haven't been to a NPP in quite some time? Because the culture of our NPPs has changed drastically in the last 40 years.

And if you maintain that the industry isn't driven first and foremost by profit, you are naïve, stupid, or a shill for the industry

And I don't think you are stupid.

I've done work at most of operating US nuclear power plants, and quite a few around the world. You can probably count on one hand the number people in this world who have been to more, and they likely are retired. At all the various plants run by various companies and people, I've had safety training beat into my head. I've seen decision after decision driven by a culture of safety first. During a plant outage, time is literally money. Plants lose ~ 1 million dollars a day when they aren't operating. I've seen the lowest man on the totem pole raise a concern without retaliation for holding up the schedule. I'm not saying profit isn't a concern, but it's not the priority. Especially in today's environment, everyone working there knows that one safety screw up could mothball the plant and cost them their job.

 

[pandaczar12]

The safety features at tmi worked as designed. Core lost water, fuel rods melted, all was contained by the containment vessel. No one hurt

Correct. A few barriers failed, the fuel, and the cladding. But the reactor vessel was never breached, and obviously containment was not breached. Interestingly enough, the melted fuel ended up in the bottom of the reactor vessel where there was water, and re-solidified, actually strengthening the containment vessel. So after the media caused some to flee in terror, TMI turned out to be not as bad as expected.

 

[86Engineer]

Yes, they use very large diesel generators.

The fuel is clad in a zirconium alloy, and when exposed to steam there is a reaction that releases hydrogen. The hydrogen ignited causing the explosion.

The lastest generation of nuclear reactors do not rely on forced cooling, and use only natural circulation to remove decay heat. So in the case of Fukushima, they would have been fine without power.

Power is still needed to operate the pumps necessary to circulate water thru the reactor and spent fuel pools to the heat exchangers.

 

[pandaczar12]

Power is still needed to operate the pumps necessary to circulate water thru the reactor and spent fuel pools to the heat exchangers.

http://www.westinghousenuclear.com/new-plants/ap1000-pwr/safety/passive-safety-systems

The AP1000 plant’s passive safety systems require no operator actions to mitigate design-basis accidents. These systems use only natural forces such as gravity, natural circulation and compressed gas to achieve their safety function. No pumps, fans, diesels, chillers or other active machinery are used, except for a few simple valves that automatically align and actuate the passive safety systems.

 

[NedFromYork]

When is the next episode?

 

[razpsu]

Pandaczar, something tells me you may be a NucE or something similar since you make too much sense and have great knowledge of the subject at hand. At least that is what my fairly extensive training and education in nuclear and radiation physics, radiation biology and protection tell me. The Soviets were absolutely criminal in their response with regard to public health during the Chernobyl incident. It would have been simple to supply the area population with lugols solution when meltdown was imminent or in the immediate post meltdown period and then getting them the hell out of there pronto, but they did not want to alert the world that there was a significant problem with their great technology and construction prowess.

My daughter (a PhD in nuclear engineering with concentration in nuclear forensics) and I have discussed Chernobyl now and again over the years. These discussions indicate to me you have quite a bit of knowledge in the area of nuclear power and power plants.

My daughter’s advisor was the expert CNN used during the Fukushima disaster (local resource as a faculty member in NucE at GA Tech at the time) so at least they did a few things right in their reporting then.

Why were they baffled when they heard the core exploded. Why did they say that isn’t possible. What did cause it do explode.

Haven’t read up on it yet.

 

[ras5051]

Why were they baffled when they heard the core exploded. Why did they say that isn’t possible. What did cause it do explode.

Haven’t read up on it yet.

I’m not a nuclear engineer, but I recommend listening to the pod cast. One of the plant managers (can’t remember which guy in the show) had a background working in energy, but apparently wasn’t a nuclear engineer. Some pretty fascinating stuff in the podcast

 

[tboyer]

Very impressed with the HBO Chernobyl series, first rate writing and acting, and what happened was awful and terrifying.

But for being the worst nuke accident in history, the total number of direct deaths is less than 50, and indirect deaths from thyroid cancer is estimated at maybe another 20. (which is MUCH less than was originally estimated, by the way)

 

[86Engineer]

I was

http://www.westinghousenuclear.com/new-plants/ap1000-pwr/safety/passive-safety-systems

The AP1000 plant’s passive safety systems require no operator actions to mitigate design-basis accidents. These systems use only natural forces such as gravity, natural circulation and compressed gas to achieve their safety function. No pumps, fans, diesels, chillers or other active machinery are used, except for a few simple valves that automatically align and actuate the passive safety systems.

I was responding to the part of your post where you stated.....

The latest generation of nuclear reactors do not rely on forced cooling, and use only natural circulation to remove decay heat. So in the case of Fukushima, they would have been fine without power.

…...and took that to mean that the Fukushima reactors were the latest generation. They were not.

All 6 Fukushima Daiichi reactors are GE BWR's built before 1980, and they most certainly need auxiliary power to operate the recirc pumps necessary to cool the reactor water.

Apologies if I misread your post.

 

[Obliviax]

Just a cautionary tale: Remember, this is the company that produced "Paterno" and several other shows that stretched the truth (to be kind).

 

[pandaczar12]

I was


I was responding to the part of your post where you stated.....

The latest generation of nuclear reactors do not rely on forced cooling, and use only natural circulation to remove decay heat. So in the case of Fukushima, they would have been fine without power.

…...and took that to mean that the Fukushima reactors were the latest generation. They were not.

All 6 Fukushima Daiichi reactors are GE BWR's built before 1980, and they most certainly need auxiliary power to operate the recirc pumps necessary to cool the reactor water.

Apologies if I misread your post.

Yes, you misread the post. Fukushima had VERY old GE boilers. I was saying that if the latest generation of reactor would have been fine with without power.

 

[pandaczar12]

the world should be building nuclear plants as fast as it can so it can stop burning stuff for fuel.

But no...we're doing the opposite. We're shutting down nuke plants all over the world and replacing them gas turbines, just so we can bring about that 20 foot rise in sea level as soon as possible.

+1

According to a 5 year old business insider article I just looked at, France has 58 and generates about 75% (top ranked percentage) of its electricity that way. The US has 100 (most of any country) plants and only gets 19% (yeah, we are much larger, so makes sense).

You would think with the amount of technology we have today combined with everything we've learned from TMI, Chernobyl and Japan, nuclear would have to be darn near the safest (overall) form of energy we can currently produce.

US is down to 98 units, with a few more closings on the horizon.

France also reprocesses it's fuel. Breeder reactors can create more fuel than they use, and it helps get rid of the nuclear waste. Jimmy Carter banned this in the US.

Nuclear is very safe, and obviously carbon free. But natural gas is so damn cheap now, that it makes building a nuclear plant hard to justify economically.

 

[Nitt1300]

If you believe the Russians, that's how many people died. Of course many don't believe the Russians and estimate that many, many more actually died.

nobody believes the Russians about anything, do they?

well, maybe that one guy

 

[lj4heisman1]

I was


I was responding to the part of your post where you stated.....

The latest generation of nuclear reactors do not rely on forced cooling, and use only natural circulation to remove decay heat. So in the case of Fukushima, they would have been fine without power.

…...and took that to mean that the Fukushima reactors were the latest generation. They were not.

All 6 Fukushima Daiichi reactors are GE BWR's built before 1980, and they most certainly need auxiliary power to operate the recirc pumps necessary to cool the reactor water.

Apologies if I misread your post.

you did not, but pls be aware that he has been in more nuclear power plants than anyone in the world, except for 3-4 retired folks, maybe

 

[91Joe95]

Why were they baffled when they heard the core exploded. Why did they say that isn’t possible. What did cause it do explode.

Haven’t read up on it yet.

If I remember correctly, they were running their test and had a lot of safety interlocks disabled. The test was designed to produce more power to see if they could generate more power in the future. They got an unexpectedly large power spike. They lowered the control rods, which is what they would normally do to lower the reaction. Except, with this test, the power output was already too high, and lowering the control rods so suddenly actually increases the power output of the reactor. Boom.

No one else in the world uses this type of reactor for energy generation as it is inherently harder to control and not nearly as safe as western designs. It is my understanding, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, that this type of reactor on a smaller scale is used to generate plutonium for weapons.

 

[91Joe95]

No one on this board would be downplaying this incident - no matter their experience - if it happened in, say, Frederick, Md.

All of a sudden people are taking Soviet body counts as gospel. Get out of here

I don't think anyone is taking the soviet's body counts as gospel. I certainly am not, especially after learning what actually happened and how they responded. That said, their reactor design is so fundamentally different from western designs that saying they are both nuclear reactors and carry similar risks is either born of ignorance, or dishonesty. The argument that tree huggers should be giving (western) nuclear reactors a proverbial big hug is absolutely correct, and yet for the most part the opposite has occurred. Even a Soviet design with increased safety equipment, containment, and operated properly, while not ideal should still be preferable to co2 emitting plants from an environmental aspect.

 

[flash86]

Need reactors that actually consume the long lasting nuclides so that Yucca Mtn doesn’t need to exist: molten salt reactors with uranium/thorium, traveling wave reactors, etc.. The science is there, the engineering isn’t, but the market forces and wrongheaded ecosystem worries (and I’ll put my tree hugging up against anybody!) are going to inappropriately lose a generation of nuclear science/engineering, losing the opportunity to make these next steps in a timely fashion; or worse, allowing others to make them.

 

[91Joe95]

Need reactors that actually consume the long lasting nuclides so that Yucca Mtn doesn’t need to exist: molten salt reactors with uranium/thorium, traveling wave reactors, etc.. The science is there, the engineering isn’t, but the market forces and wrongheaded ecosystem worries (and I’ll put my tree hugging up against anybody!) are going to inappropriately lose a generation of nuclear science/engineering, losing the opportunity to make these next steps in a timely fashion; or worse, allowing others to make them.

It is my understanding, and again, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, that spent nuclear fuel rods are still 98% active. They just need a breeder reactor to boost them up again so that they can continue to be used. Instead, here in the US, they get encased in concrete and left at the plant until Yucca mountain eventually gets completed.