.

[flash86]

This excerpt from a Wikipedia article on integral fast reactors illustrates your point: “ traditional once-through reactors, which extract less than 0.65% of the energy in mined uranium, and less than 5% of the enriched uranium with which they are fueled. This could greatly dampen concern about fuel supply or energy used in mining.“

The traveling wave reactor:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveling_wave_reactor

It is my understanding, and again, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, that spent nuclear fuel rods are still 98% active. They just need a breeder reactor to boost them up again so that they can continue to be used. Instead, here in the US, they get encased in concrete and left at the plant until Yucca mountain eventually gets completed.

 

[delcoLion]

+1



US is down to 98 units, with a few more closings on the horizon.

France also reprocesses it's fuel. Breeder reactors can create more fuel than they use, and it helps get rid of the nuclear waste. Jimmy Carter banned this in the US.

Nuclear is very safe, and obviously carbon free. But natural gas is so damn cheap now, that it makes building a nuclear plant hard to justify economically.

I'm not an engineer but I do follow as well as I can, so can you comment on these companies that are proposing smaller reactors that can be made in a construction plant and shipped to a site? they seem to think that this will cut the cost of construction. And is there a future for thorium reactors? Thanks.

 

[pandaczar12]

I'm not an engineer but I do follow as well as I can, so can you comment on these companies that are proposing smaller reactors that can be made in a construction plant and shipped to a site? they seem to think that this will cut the cost of construction. And is there a future for thorium reactors? Thanks.

While I probably know more about them than most, I’m definitely not an expert on either topic. The small reactors could replace large stations. They will be easy to operate and cheaper to build. They talk about building them in bundles to equal the output of a big baseload plant. The big plus is that it would be easy to turn on only the number of reactors needed to meet the power demand. The traditional nuclear plant struggles to run at anything but 100% power. The designs I have seen are also very safe.

As for Thorium, the concept is really cool and exciting, but in my opinion is not going anywhere. The concept has been around for ages, but Uranium was chosen because one of the by-products of a uranium reactor is plutonium, which was needed for bombs. I just don't see the world changing. Also the thorium fuels is really expensive to fabricate, and require uranium/plutonium to make.

 

[mrtailgate]

Not poorly trained, poorly informed. As stated above, there was no internet back then and the Soviets had total control of the flow of information (news, science, etc.).


True, and the methods they use to reinforce this thinking is quite tragic.


LOL - I had many similar experiences as you describe in the airport and above. I worked on a large aluminum plant project that was installed just outside of Ekatinburg in the early 1990s. Between 1989 and 1992, I spent one week out of six in the USSR for meetings on this project. Most of these were in Moscow and sometimes we would go to the Urals and visit the site. Occasionally, we would visit a remote region of the USSR to evaluate another potential project to convert defense plants to produce consumer goods.

Naturally, I got to know a lot of citizens on a personal level. It was crazy how they lived two lives. One behind their walls where they could speak freely and live how they chose and one where they were in public/work settings and they had to comply. I could go on forever with examples, but I am certain that the people that went into that plant truly felt that they had no choice. And, trust me, there is a very specific social status system in place among the non-elites as well.

I lived in the Urals area for nearly one year as we commissioned this plant. It was impossible to get the people to work overtime even if our company would absorb the labor cost. We learned that they had to shop and tend to their gardens after work in order to "survive". This was summer season.

When winter rolled around, I thought we could get some overtime going since gardening duty was over. It was just the opposite, they had to shop even harder to make ends meet. Your description about the shoes is spot on. None of the stores had any signage to identify them as stores and you had no idea what you would find when you went in. You simply got in line and hoped for the best. Long lines meant something good but a real possibility of them being "out" when your turn came. Medium lines (maybe good, maybe have when I get there). Imagine the frustration!!

Here is a "real life" example of what the shopping experience was like in this industrial town:
Monday:
Shop A: Moldovan Brandy (quite good but unaffordable to Soviets), Fifty pound sacks of Chinese Rice, White ladies summer dresses (in winter) in two sizes only
Shop B: Beer, Mittens, Ski Poles, Oranges from Kazakhstan, Hunting Knifes
Shop C: Girls boots (size 5 & 7), Chocolates from Finland and Alternators for a Zhiguli

I will never forget the looks on our Soviet visitors' faces when we took them to a Wine and Spirits Shop (State Store back then) and to a Giant Eagle when they visit our home offices in Pittsburgh. The elder Communist Party chiefs truly thought it was staged!

Who are you kidding? You probably spent most of your time in the sack with a gaggle of Tatiana’s and Natasha’s sipping fine Russian vodka. You did more to promote detente than anyone in the gubment. Hard to believe that there were not more international incidents reported during your time there.

 

[The Spin Meister]

The plant obviously was over-engineered, as it survived the earthquake pretty well. The problem was that it was hit with the Tsunami later. So it wasn't so much the plant design, it was the location. Had the plant been located in Kansas, there would have been no issue.

Sad but if the Fukushima plants were built on ground only 50' higher, the tsunami never would have wiped out the generators and the plant would have been fine.

Think about that.....fifty feet would have saved tens(hundreds?) of billions of dollars, not ruined a large area of Japan, probably saved many lives, and not ruined an entire industry.

 

[The Spin Meister]

BTW; here is a wiki link on one of the small scale nuke design companies called NuScale Power complete with design diagram. Looks promising. Pre-designed and pre-built means set pricing with no or little over runs. You can add modules to meet demand so as a city grows, add a new module. Modules are replaced as fuel expires meaning new modules will have latest updates/safety/efficiencies built in.

One huge asset is distributed generation, meaning a small city in some remote state can use one module close by instead of a massive plant 200 miles away....less power lines to built and maintain....less line loss through transmission lines.

 

[flash86]

The Terrapower traveling wave reactor is one of these module designs.

https://terrapower.com/technologies/twr

I'm not an engineer but I do follow as well as I can, so can you comment on these companies that are proposing smaller reactors that can be made in a construction plant and shipped to a site? they seem to think that this will cut the cost of construction. And is there a future for thorium reactors? Thanks.

 

[pandaczar12]

Sad but if the Fukushima plants were built on ground only 50' higher, the tsunami never would have wiped out the generators and the plant would have been fine.

Think about that.....fifty feet would have saved tens(hundreds?) of billions of dollars, not ruined a large area of Japan, probably saved many lives, and not ruined an entire industry.

I generally agree with your post. But so far, only one person has died from radiation exposure, and even that is questionable (he died of lung cancer in his 50s). I wouldn't say the industry is ruined, but it was booming at the time of Fukushima, and it's definitely slowed a lot.

Thankfully in the US, our plants are built in better locations, our operators are much better trained, our plants have lots of safety upgrades, and we have the FLEX program.

 

[kijanalives]

My uncle was a prominent nuclear physicist back in the day. Shortly after the Chernobyl disaster he was asked to visit the site and provide clean up consultation. ( I’m not a nuclear physicist so I’m not conversant with the technical terms and what actually he was asked to perform ).
After his return I spoke with him and he remarked how shockingly inferior the technology and safety precautions were. He sadly joked that high school kids at a science fair could have built a better and safer installation. I guess the World is lucky that it wasn’t worse.
As an aside, as one poster already mentioned, the Japanese meltdown was portrayed by the press as worse than it actually was. When I called him and asked if we have another Chernobyl on our hands he said something like “ No they’ve got this one it’s under control “.
I’m not saying that he was omnipotent. The family joke always was that as a young man he helped design the nuclear shielding on the USS Threasher. That was the first US nuclear submarine ( don’t know of any others ) that sunk due to problems with it’s nuclear power plant .

Multiple young men from PA, and two from my hometown of Altoona, went down with the Threasher.

Maybe that family joke should be buried as well.

 

[flash86]

Old SNL joke during TMI period went something like “More people have died in the back of Ted Kennedy’s car thanin a nuclear accident.” Not accurate at the time

I generally agree with your post. But so far, only one person has died from radiation exposure, and even that is questionable (he died of lung cancer in his 50s). I wouldn't say the industry is ruined, but it was booming at the time of Fukushima, and it's definitely slowed a lot.

Thankfully in the US, our plants are built in better locations, our operators are much better trained, our plants have lots of safety upgrades, and we have the FLEX program.

 

[flash86]

Thresher accident was less reactor accident than overall engineering and reactor process problem, per Wikipedia. Certainly not a Widowmaker kind of reactor failure.

My uncle was a prominent nuclear physicist back in the day. Shortly after the Chernobyl disaster he was asked to visit the site and provide clean up consultation. ( I’m not a nuclear physicist so I’m not conversant with the technical terms and what actually he was asked to perform ).
After his return I spoke with him and he remarked how shockingly inferior the technology and safety precautions were. He sadly joked that high school kids at a science fair could have built a better and safer installation. I guess the World is lucky that it wasn’t worse.
As an aside, as one poster already mentioned, the Japanese meltdown was portrayed by the press as worse than it actually was. When I called him and asked if we have another Chernobyl on our hands he said something like “ No they’ve got this one it’s under control “.
I’m not saying that he was omnipotent. The family joke always was that as a young man he helped design the nuclear shielding on the USS Threasher. That was the first US nuclear submarine ( don’t know of any others ) that sunk due to problems with it’s nuclear power plant .

 

[tboyer]

If you believe the Russians, that's how many people died. Of course many don't believe the Russians and estimate that many, many more actually died.

No I think it's pretty much a scientific consensus that the actual death toll from Chernobyl, in terms of additional cancers, turned out to be an order of magnitude less than the most optimistic predictions.

Not that it wasn't a horrific accident, not that nuclear power isn't very dangerous, but people are way more fearful than they should be. Nuclear has risks and dangers and costs, but so does every other method of electrical generation.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

Wild ending to the 2nd episode.

 

[NittanyLionRoar]

This is the best show I’ve seen in a long, long time and now I can’t sleep after episode 2. HBO is nailing this one.

 

[Nittany_93]

You're basing that statement on what exactly?
The fact that in the history of US nuclear power there's been one single incident that resulted in the release of negligible amounts of radiation?

Perhaps if you exclude Hanford....or rephrase as "commercial incident"...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanford_Site

 

[pandaczar12]

Perhaps if you exclude Hanford....or rephrase as "commercial incident"...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanford_Site

He said "US nuclear power", I think it's clear. Hanford's main purpose was for weapons production.

 

[olelion]

(Let's not forget that some researchers believe that low doses of radiation might actually be beneficial to ones health.) When there is essentially no radiation release, it's easier to tell ignorant nut jobs like you that there was none.
[/QUOTE]

Your point on low levels of radiation being beneficial caught my eye. You are no doubt aware of the "linear non-threshold" (LNT) assumptiion in radiation exposure. All data used are from high exposure events such as Hiroshima/Nagasaki, Chernobyl, the accident in Idaho some years ago, and a few others. The exposure/lethality curve is projected to zero thereby implying an imputed effect of exposure at low levels of radiation exposure. Living in Colorado should result in radiation sickness based on LNT but guess what.......it's just not happening!

 

[olelion]

I will never forget the looks on our Soviet visitors' faces when we took them to a Wine and Spirits Shop (State Store back then) and to a Giant Eagle when they visit our home offices in Pittsburgh. The elder Communist Party chiefs truly thought it was staged![/QUOTE]

Had a similar experience when hosting a bunch of Russians to a coal mine in northeast Wyoming. We were on our way to the pit as we passed the employees parking lot and the motorcycle rack, loaded with Harleys. Most of our guests never made it to the pit. Just stayed near the bikes posing and taking photographs. Those that made it to the pit refused to believe that the large draglines used hydraulic walkers. "...impossible, they are electric!". We paused the machine, took them onboard. They left as skeptics. Amazing

 

[Obliviax]

I will never forget the looks on our Soviet visitors' faces when we took them to a Wine and Spirits Shop (State Store back then) and to a Giant Eagle when they visit our home offices in Pittsburgh. The elder Communist Party chiefs truly thought it was staged!

Had a similar experience when hosting a bunch of Russians to a coal mine in northeast Wyoming. We were on our way to the pit as we passed the employees parking lot and the motorcycle rack, loaded with Harleys. Most of our guests never made it to the pit. Just stayed near the bikes posing and taking photographs. Those that made it to the pit refused to believe that the large draglines used hydraulic walkers. "...impossible, they are electric!". We paused the machine, took them onboard. They left as skeptics. Amazing[/QUOTE]

Ive posted this before so apologies. An acquaintance works for the CIA and he works to verify compliance with nuclear missiles between the former USSR and the USA. At one point, in FL, they had a hole in the schedule so my acquaintance scheduled a trip to Kennedy Space Center. During the tour, the manager of the space center was showing the assembly area, the tracks to the launch pad and the launch pad. A soviet asked why the space shuttle rotates after launch and proceeds at a 180 degree from launch. the answer, sheepishly, was that the contractor for the pad was different from the contractor for the assembly area and they screwed up: They built them launch pad 180 degrees from what it should have been. After much investigation, it was cheaper to launch and turn the shuttle than to retrofit the launch pad or assembly area. The soviet official laughed so hard they had to wait for him to calm down. When he calmed, they asked what was so funny. He said that he helped manage the program when the soviets emulated the US Shuttle program. They could figure everything out but they simply could not understand why the shuttle turned. So, thinking that the US team knew what they were doing, they emulated it.

 

[Obliviax]

Are you addressing why the shuttle rolls into a head down position after launch?

As the story was related to me, why the fuel tank is below, then on top of, the shuttle after launch. But I may have misunderstood. 1:45 in the video below

 

[razpsu]

Good episode 2 last night. I almost died when the commander was told they both will die in 5 years.

 

[pandaczar12]

In an effort to get back on topic... I liked the first episode better, but the second episode was really good.

All the helicopter scenes were great. When Shcherbina/Legasov were in the helicopter, and when the helicopters were dropping Boron on the reactor. The entire part about the 3 divers, from the board room to the end of the episode was very compelling. I really liked how at Shcherbina's treatment of Legasov changed throughout the episode.

 

[LionJim]

In an effort to get back on topic... I liked the first episode better, but the second episode was really good.

All the helicopter scenes were great. When Shcherbina/Legasov were in the helicopter, and when the helicopters were dropping Boron on the reactor. The entire part about the 3 divers, from the board room to the end of the episode was very compelling. I really liked how at Shcherbina's treatment of Legasov changed throughout the episode.

Thanks. Let’s try to stay on topic. Nobody’s minds are going to be changed here.

 

[GreatBasinNit]

In an effort to get back on topic... I liked the first episode better, but the second episode was really good.

All the helicopter scenes were great. When Shcherbina/Legasov were in the helicopter, and when the helicopters were dropping Boron on the reactor. The entire part about the 3 divers, from the board room to the end of the episode was very compelling. I really liked how at Shcherbina's treatment of Legasov changed throughout the episode.

I think HBO has done a tremendous job through the first two episodes. They’ve really focused on the individuals who sacrificed so much to save others. When they sent the 3 plant workers below to drain the water I was thinking to myself, “would I be willing to do that knowing I’ll die an excruciatingly painful death tomorrow?”

 

[pandaczar12]

I think HBO has done a tremendous job through the first two episodes. They’ve really focused on the individuals who sacrificed so much to save others. When they sent the 3 plant workers below to drain the water I was thinking to myself, “would I be willing to do that knowing I’ll die an excruciatingly painful death tomorrow?”

It's certainly good TV, but they are over-dramatizing it. My understanding is that the 3 plant workers weren't in as much danger as the show portrays, and that they live long lives afterwards. The one thing that really bothered me about the episode is that they are really exaggerating what the secondary explosion would be like. They should have just said that it would be very bad and lots of radiation would be spread. They made it seem like it would be a small nuclear blast.

 

[bwifan]

It's certainly good TV, but they are over-dramatizing it. My understanding is that the 3 plant workers weren't in as much danger as the show portrays, and that they live long lives afterwards. The one thing that really bothered me about the episode is that they are really exaggerating what the secondary explosion would be like. They should have just said that it would be very bad and lots of radiation would be spread. They made it seem like it would be a small nuclear blast.

Pandaczar... You are up on much of the latest research and information regarding nuclear. Question for you, what advances are coming or have been made to get rid of spent fuel? I know you touched on it a bit yesterday in a post. That always seemed to be most people's concern on how to handle the waste, and not just store it in the ground.

 

[91Joe95]

It's certainly good TV, but they are over-dramatizing it. My understanding is that the 3 plant workers weren't in as much danger as the show portrays, and that they live long lives afterwards. The one thing that really bothered me about the episode is that they are really exaggerating what the secondary explosion would be like. They should have just said that it would be very bad and lots of radiation would be spread. They made it seem like it would be a small nuclear blast.

If that is the way they understood/anticipated the danger at the time, I can understand the portrayal. It is definitely an intense show.

 

[MJG-90]

If that is the way they understood/anticipated the danger at the time, I can understand the portrayal. It is definitely an intense show.

I think they were in uncharted territory and trying to prevent the worst by stating what they thought. I watched the short "after show" thing too. The lady scientist is fictional. She's a representation of the nuclear science community at the time. That might explain some of the overreaction.

 

[pandaczar12]

If that is the way they understood/anticipated the danger at the time, I can understand the portrayal. It is definitely an intense show.

That’s a good point, at the time they didn’t know what was going to happen. I just hope they don’t show them all dying in the next episode.

 

[91Joe95]

That’s a good point, at the time they didn’t know what was going to happen. I just hope they don’t show them all dying in the next episode.

I completely agree as I cannot stand shows that claim to be historically accurate and then deliberately change things. It's not like this event needs any extra drama.

 

[pandaczar12]

Pandaczar... You are up on much of the latest research and information regarding nuclear. Question for you, what advances are coming or have been made to get rid of spent fuel? I know you touched on it a bit yesterday in a post. That always seemed to be most people's concern on how to handle the waste, and not just store it in the ground.

I haven't heard of any real advances in the field. There are lots of bad ideas (shoot it into the sun, sink it to the bottom of the ocean) out there. Today it's stored all over the country in the spent fuel pits, or dry cask storage. Eventually something is going to have to be done, it just can't sit where it is infidelity. Having it stored in an over-engineered repository under a mountain, on land that is government owned and is uninhabited because used to be a nuclear test site... is much better than our current situation. It would be cool if someone found a way to change the long-lived radioactive materials to short-lived ones.

Now France has the right idea, they reprocess their fuel, and turn it into more fuel. This also reduces the volume of waste that will eventually need to be stored. I really hope this is where the US eventually gets to.

 

[razpsu]

In an effort to get back on topic... I liked the first episode better, but the second episode was really good.

All the helicopter scenes were great. When Shcherbina/Legasov were in the helicopter, and when the helicopters were dropping Boron on the reactor. The entire part about the 3 divers, from the board room to the end of the episode was very compelling. I really liked how at Shcherbina's treatment of Legasov changed throughout the episode.

I’m shocked that Gorbachev listened to him when he said the meeting was over. I’m sure everyone besides me was saying, go to the damn site and see what is happening. Those two scientists on site were still saying that there was nothing wrong.

They stood by their previous statements that it is impossible that it exploded

 

[91Joe95]

I’m shocked that Gorbachev listened to him when he said the meeting was over. I’m sure everyone besides me was saying, go to the damn site and see what is happening. Those two scientists on site were still saying that there was nothing wrong.

They stood by their previous statements that it is impossible that it exploded

Gorbachev was interesting to watch. At the beginning, he seemed to understand the structural problems of the communist government, and at the end he showed little empathy for what was about to happen to certain people. I also found it slightly amusing how everyone threatened with imprisonment or a bullet seemed to understand the person making them may have been saying it for effect, but if they really wanted to they could make it happen.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

I tried to find out if Shcherbina (sp) actually did die within 5 years, but can't find that info. We know that Legasov committed suicide two years later.

 

[ras5051]

I completely agree as I cannot stand shows that claim to be historically accurate and then deliberately change things. It's not like this event needs any extra drama.

The writer fully admits that he adds drama. This show might not suit your interests..

 

[MJG-90]

At the beginning, he seemed to understand the structural problems of the communist government, and at the end he showed little empathy for what was about to happen to certain people.

I think it would be easy enough, given the circumstances, to allow a few volunteers to die in order to save 60 million others. For me, I'd have to make sure those guys got properly recognized after the fact. But it's a decision that needed to be made.

 

[tboyer]

I think HBO has done a tremendous job through the first two episodes. They’ve really focused on the individuals who sacrificed so much to save others. When they sent the 3 plant workers below to drain the water I was thinking to myself, “would I be willing to do that knowing I’ll die an excruciatingly painful death tomorrow?”

I think the level of heroism and sacrifice is the most gripping part of the show. The whole thing was a terrible mess but so many people (Scherbina is a great example), once they realized a million people could die, they did the right thing or tried to do the right thing.

The three guys who volunteered to sacrifice their own lives to open the sluice gates -- contrary to what everyone expected, they actually survived. Two were still alive in 2016 according to Wikipedia, and the third had died of heart failure in 2005. Andrew Leatherbarrow's book sounds like a great read.

From Wikipedia:

The bubbler pool could be drained by opening its sluice gates. However, the valves controlling it were underwater, located in a flooded corridor in the basement. So volunteers in wetsuits and respirators (for protection against radioactive aerosols) and equipped with dosimeters, entered the knee-deep radioactive water and managed to open the valves.[86][87] These were the engineers Alexei Ananenko and Valeri Bezpalov (who knew where the valves were), accompanied by the shift supervisor Boris Baranov.[88][89][90] Upon succeeding and emerging from the water, according to many English language news articles, books and the prominent BBCdocudramaSurviving Disaster – Chernobyl Nuclear, the three knew it was a suicide-mission and began suffering from radiation sickness and died soon after.[91] Some sources also incorrectly claimed that they died there in the plant.[90] However, research by Andrew Leatherbarrow, author of the 2016 book Chernobyl 01:23:40,[86] determined that the frequently recounted story is a gross exaggeration. Alexei Ananenko continues to work in the nuclear energy industry, and rebuffs the growth of the Chernobyl media sensationalism surrounding him.[92] While Valeri Bezpalov was found to still be alive by Leatherbarrow, the 65-year-old Baranov had lived until 2005 and had died of heart failure.[93]

 

[Obliviax]

Finally watched S 1 E 2 last night: (spoiler alert)

• Gorbachev is the hero IMHO. He sees the conflict and knows how the system works to give him bad info. So he sends them both. Kudos to the soviet party member for changing his tune once the obvious is shown
  
• The post QA session said the woman scientist never existed. She is an amalgamation of the 100s of scientists that worked to remediate the problem
• what happened to the flashlights? did they not anticipate the effect the radiation would have on the lights?
• Can you imagine having to tell, or having to hear, that unless you can remediate in 48 hours 60 million people will be killed?
• I agree killing three is a no-brainer. Don't think about it, make the decision and don't look back. Reminds me of Ike shaking hands of paratroopers the day before the D-Day drop. They estimated 70% fatalities, IIRC. Tough to look those bastards in the eye. But, we all die. Great to go out as a hero. I always wonder why they don't find some guy with terminal cancer that is temporarily in remission.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Finally watched S 1 E 2 last night: (spoiler alert)

• Gorbachev is the hero IMHO. He sees the conflict and knows how the system works to give him bad info. So he sends them both. Kudos to the soviet party member for changing his tune once the obvious is shown
  
• The post QA session said the woman scientist never existed. She is an amalgamation of the 100s of scientists that worked to remediate the problem
• what happened to the flashlights? did they not anticipate the effect the radiation would have on the lights?
• Can you imagine having to tell, or having to hear, that unless you can remediate in 48 hours 60 million people will be killed?
• I agree killing three is a no-brainer. Don't think about it, make the decision and don't look back. Reminds me of Ike shaking hands of paratroopers the day before the D-Day drop. They estimated 70% fatalities, IIRC. Tough to look those bastards in the eye. But, we all die. Great to go out as a hero. I always wonder why they don't find some guy with terminal cancer that is temporarily in remission.

Exactly. I’ve often thought of this. Like a guy in early stages of ALS or diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. Let me go out a hero - just either allow someone to do a Dr. Kevorkian on me or give me something painless to do it myself - like a syringe of Fentanyl.

 

[flash86]

Midnight in Chernobyl hardcore on sale/#1 in Nuclear Physics on Amazon. And use smile.amazon.com and choose the PSU Women’s Volleyball Booster Club as your charity!