Agree with everything, but 4x's in 4 weights, gonna be a while before it's duplicated.
3 time Undefeated National Champs
- Thread starter y2jriden
- Start date
I don't get the significance of winning at 4 different weights. It just shows that he kept growing in college. The one exception in my thinking (and it's a big exception) is moving up his Sr year to challenge DT. He did that to take on the best, and you've got to hand it to him--he pulled it off! I picked DT all 3 times, not believing he could continue to pull rabbits out of his hat. He made a believer of me!
Theres two ways to look at Dakes switching weights every year...
1) It was HARDER than staying at your current weight because you are now facing an entire new class of wrestlers.
2) It was EASIER than staying put because you arent wrestling the same guys over and over again who may have learned something from meeting you once or twice.
It would be a monumental task, but Id like to know how many DIFFERENT guys KD beat in college. More than most,i’m sure.
The way I look at it is, weight management was never one of the many things that KD had to worry about, and this had to have made thing easier on him.Then, you think, jeez, wasnt he in the least bit worried about how his bumping every year affected his team? You dont think Vincenzo would love to be at 197 by now? Kinda selfish IYAM.
Although I agree that the move to 165 took huge cahonees, he had beat DT at ASC before the season started... would he still have bumped had DT won?
I think it’s much harder to stay at the same weight/group of wrestlers. Guys can learn your tendencies, strengths, etc. examples: Delgado/Nico, Bo/Miles, Vincenzo/Imar, Mark Hall/Valencia, you get the idea, each of these guys won at some point in the many times they wrestled each other, Dake is good enough to beat the guys first try and most never get a second try. If that’s an advantage or not? I would think so. Is Dake is an all time great? Absolutely. Is he the second best ever? I don’t know, lots of other names come to mind before/with him/ because of their dominance or offensive output match after match, but he (Dake) is absolutely without a doubt one of the best ever.
Winning four national championships is a beyond-great accomplishment. Granted, freshmen couldn’t always wrestle, there’s only been four 4-time champs in history.
To me, the fact that Dake won without the benefit of a RS season, the only 4-time champ to do so, is more profound than winning at four different weight classes.
To me, the fact that Dake won without the benefit of a RS season, the only 4-time champ to do so, is more profound than winning at four different weight classes.
Disagree entirely with the bolded part. Putting aside the rumors of his ballooning at every NCAA Finals after weigh-ins ... there's likely a very good reason he bumped up every year. As opposed to, say, Jason Nolf staying put for 5 years.
I agree with much that you wrote. But I don't think Dake's winning his ASC match affected his moving up to 165. Dake seems to like challenges, and if he had lost the ASC match with DT I think he would have been even more motivated to take DT on again to prove that he could beat him.
I don't recall this being the question. Maybe a little less defensiveness and a little more reading.
But you're right, I'd take DT over Dake in the draft for the bonus, but that isn't what this is about.
Ok, but Cyler took 6th that year, and got dominated twice in the process (15-6 and pinned). He was a good stretch from O'Connor that year and the fact that he beat DT twice, in addition to the loss to Jenkins who wasn't even training for NCAA's that year, leads me to believe that Taylor wasn't ready to compete for a title that year. Could he have placed? Sure. But the jump he made between his true and redshirt freshman years was noticeable. He also took freestyle losses to St. John and Polz that summer too, both of whom weren't title contenders.
We can't project what DT became onto what he was at that point. There's too much data to contradict it.
Uh, you answered your own puzzle.
BTW, I don’t get why people eat. There’s no purpose to it. The one exception is that it keeps us alive. Anyhow, I don’t understand why people eat.
Lincoln McIlravey lost his 1st match out of RS and also in Big Ten finals freshman year.
Joe W lost Big Ten finals his junior year.
Excuse me, but didn't you write the following - "Sure, DT is an all-time great, but let's not act like he has even a remotely plausible argument to be on the same level as Dake, who has 2 more titles, no redshirt, 3 head to head wins, and only 1 extra loss (or the same if you count DT's loss to Jenkins unnattached). The bottom line is that titles are always what matters in sports."?
What I replied with was totally germane. One, in Dake's signature year, he scored less points at nationals than DT did and won their match by a point. To argue that Taylor isn't even plausibly "on the same level as Dake" is missing so, so much I don't know where to begin. Two, partly as a result of Taylor's scoring at nationals, Penn State won a team title that year. So, if TEAM titles "are always what matters in sports, Dake wound up 0 for 4.
On the other hand, Taylor's wrestling style was tremendously influential and Dake's was, frankly, not influential at all.
In summary, one guy lost two times in the finals and won twice - and won four team titles. The other won all four finals and won zero team titles. To say there is no plausible argument that Taylor is on the same level as Dake is just extreme reductionism.
It's not about maxing NCAA tournament points. This is about ranking careers. Just because one wrestler pins and techs a bunch of people, doesn't mean he's better than another champ that wins close matches. We saw this when these two actually wrestled 3 time in folkstyle, and Dake won every time because he's better. Dake has twice as many titles as Taylor. Taylor is still an all-time great, precisely because of the bonus point domination you bring up, but he doesn't have a serious argument to be next to or above Dake on any sort of all-timer list. He has 2 titles with a redshirt. Dake has 4 without one, the only wrestler to accomplish that feat. The only reason that DT gets any sort of mention among the greats is because of his style. There have been plenty of 2x champs, but not many like Taylor. However, it's not enough to account for his shortage of titles compared to guys like Cael and Dake. Ask DT who he thinks had the better career.
Team titles count for literally nothing for this kind of ranking, but I get why you want to go there because you don't have much else. If anything, it makes Dake's superiority more impressive because he did it at a "lesser" program without the partners DT had. That's not a fruitful path for your argument.
Was Dake the product of a lesser program during his first two years?
Or did Cornell become the lesser program during his college career?
I guess what I was saying was that if Dake had won at 157 3x and then moved up to beat DT at 165 that would have been as big of a feat as winning at 141, 149, 157 and 165.Uh, you answered your own puzzle.
BTW, I don’t get why people eat. There’s no purpose to it. The one exception is that it keeps us alive. Anyhow, I don’t understand why people eat.
I presume you were being intentionally ironic when you use reductionist arguments to counter my assertion that you are engaging in reductionist arguments.
Dake was cutting a massive amount of weight by the end of his freshman year and with some natural growth, that even carried over to the next season where is was a really big 149. So many times he looked like he was dead out there in the third but he would always come up with enough to win. This was a major reason why I thought DT could beat him, but by the time Dake was at 165 the cut wasn't an issue and his gas tank troubles were long gone.
I always thought it was more difficult to change weights every year because he was consistently facing a different pool of wresters and that exposed him to a variety of styles, one of which may of been his kryptonite. I think he got a taste of that in his loss to LeValley. However, it's also a valid counter point that the more you wrestle someone, the more time they have to adjust and by moving up, Dake never had to deal with that. Of course that never helped DT.
The one thing that stands out to me is that in the process of moving up, Dake's finals opponent would go on to win the weight the next season 3 years in row (Molinaro, St. John & Taylor). When you get in these discussions, I think strength of schedule is important. Not saying he was better than Cael, but I think there is a credible argument for Dake fans.
I always thought it was more difficult to change weights every year because he was consistently facing a different pool of wresters and that exposed him to a variety of styles, one of which may of been his kryptonite. I think he got a taste of that in his loss to LeValley. However, it's also a valid counter point that the more you wrestle someone, the more time they have to adjust and by moving up, Dake never had to deal with that. Of course that never helped DT.
The one thing that stands out to me is that in the process of moving up, Dake's finals opponent would go on to win the weight the next season 3 years in row (Molinaro, St. John & Taylor). When you get in these discussions, I think strength of schedule is important. Not saying he was better than Cael, but I think there is a credible argument for Dake fans.
Last edited:
Both guys had fabulous careers, and I'm sure their fans bases would be split by the party line on who was better.
Dake >DT simply by results.
Cael > Dake is so many ways. Better record,better style,better guy,better name,better singlet,better fans....just better. I can't image anyone who watched these two guys compete during college would really argue that Dake is better than Cael. It is almost as hard as arguing that DT is better than Dake.
Cael > Dake is so many ways. Better record,better style,better guy,better name,better singlet,better fans....just better. I can't image anyone who watched these two guys compete during college would really argue that Dake is better than Cael. It is almost as hard as arguing that DT is better than Dake.
Dake gained 24 pounds over the years over the 4 weight classes. Who thinks Cael doesn’t mollywhop people weighing 209 (185+24)?
As someone said above, the lack of a redshirt is far more impressive - at least imho.
I don't actually think that. I was pointing out that you can use that argument for whichever answer you want to, and therefore it's meaningless. If you're pro-DT, his greatness elevated his team to 4 titles. If you're pro-Dake, he won 4 titles despite not being surrounded by as much talent as Taylor over the course of the career. If you can use it to justify two completely opposite positions, it's not really that useful, which is why we should stick to what these two legends actually accomplished on the mat, not what their teammates accomplished
Also, Cornell only outpaced PSU Dake's freshman year, not his first two years.
My argument isn't reductionist. You're adding irrelevant things to try to bolster an argument you can't actually make on the relevant facts. This is about individual careers. The bulk of your argument was about how great Penn State was as a team during DT's tenure. That's great, but not relevant to a career ranking list of individual careers.
I'll take it point by point for you:
1) One, in Dake's signature year, he scored less points at nationals than DT did and won their match by a point. To argue that Taylor isn't even plausibly "on the same level as Dake" is missing so, so much I don't know where to begin.
So, in other words, Taylor is on the same level as Dake because...he lost close? You know who else lost close to Dake that same weekend? Mark Martin and Tyler Caldwell. Are they on Dake's level too? But Taylor pinning Pete Yates makes up for him being 0-3 against Dake that year, sure. Would I take Taylor in a fantasy draft over Dake because of his style and bonus potential? Sure. But that doesn't mean his wrestling career is on the same level. I'd take Seth Gross over Hall too for the same reasons despite me thinking Hall is a better wrestler with a better career.
2) Two, partly as a result of Taylor's scoring at nationals, Penn State won a team title that year. So, if TEAM titles "are always what matters in sports, Dake wound up 0 for 4.
Nobody said anything about TEAM titles mattering at all in an INDIVIDUAL ranking. What matters in the INDIVIDUAL ranking are INDIVIDUAL titles. By this logic, Logan Stieber outranks Dake too because tOSU won a team title during his tenure, but I don't think anybody would seriously put Stieber ahead of Dake.
3) On the other hand, Taylor's wrestling style was tremendously influential and Dake's was, frankly, not influential at all.
Citation? Far more college wrestlers wrestle like Dake than they do Taylor. This is completely subjective.
4) In summary, one guy lost two times in the finals and won twice - and won four team titles. The other won all four finals and won zero team titles. To say there is no plausible argument that Taylor is on the same level as Dake is just extreme reductionism.
"One guy won twice as many INDIVIDUAL titles as the other guy, but that doesn't mean that the guy with half as many titles isn't on the same tier in an INDIVIDUAL ranking because that guy's teammates are better than the other guy's teammates, and team success should count in an INDIVIDUAL ranking because...uh...because I'm a fan of the guy with half as many titles and I need to find a reason to support my indefensible position that he's on the same level as the guy with twice as many titles who my guy hasn't beaten since junior high."
If the roles were reversed, you would be calling anybody saying Dake was on Taylor's level a moron, and rightly so.
That's progress because now you are elucidating your reductionism.
Your position is that individual finishes is the only thing that matters. It's both simplistic and reductionist. I don't agree. It's like your saying the only thing that matters in basketball is scoring so Bill Russell isn't the best player in NBA history.
These things are all about splitting hairs and creating arbitrary distinctions - there is no one correct answer. If you really think it's black and white and not fine shades of grey, it says more about you than anything else.
Last edited:
The only reason you're saying individual finishes aren't the only thing that matters is your guy's individual finishes are (relatively) bad compared to where he is typically, and should be imo, ranked on these lists. DT is already ranked well above what a typical 2x champ "should" be ranked precisely because of some of the attributes you listed, and rightly so. So, obviously individual finishes aren't the *only* thing that matters, but they are the most important. DT's bonus rate and style isn't enough to make up for his lack of titles compared to Dake, not to mention the 3 head to head losses, which is why he shouldn't be considered on that tier. I do think DT is near the top of the "best of the rest" though.
Obviously, it's not black and white, but the tier separation at the top is pretty clear to me:
1) Cael
2) Dake
Everybody else
I could maybe be persuaded to put Taylor above someone like Stieber or Pat Smith, but I would never consider putting him above Dake, nor would any non-PSU fan.
So you know elucidating and reductionism but not the difference between "your" and "you're"?
Get a room, you guys ...
Last edited:
I didn't even offer an opinion on the topic, not sure why you quoted me. I'm not sure why my making fun of it was any different than yours
