All-Star Classic Discussion Thread

WEAREPSU_LI

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Feb 15, 2019
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Wino’s got a point, but Carter barely beat him again, one fluke TD by Mekhi and things look way different.


AB on the other hand, left zero doubt. He could have taken him down 10-12 times.

Full disclosure… not sure why Keck is #2.


Edit, Clay beat me too it lol.
Keck beat Hidlay, that's why.
 
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zzs006

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Me three. Doesn’t mean I don’t think Carter or RBY aren’t capable of eventually having the greatest wrestling careers at the senior level—I think they could. But AB is the most complete wrestler today, IMO.
I agree that AB is the best wrestler in college but I also think he will probably have the best international career if he decides to go that way instead of going the mma route. His freestyle game is already so advanced. Looking at the guys he has beaten is pretty crazy. I mean he has beaten Nate Jackson multiple times I think and Jackson just took a match from J’Den at the trials. Jr. World champ as well. The issue obviously is being in the same weight as DT but after 2024 I think DT retires and 86kg opens up. He could also maybe go 92kg and challenge J’den
 

mcpat

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No disrespect to AB or anyone else whatsoever, but I think RBY is the best wrestler in college right now.

First… how good is Fix and who has beaten him? Twice?

Second… anything RBY wants to do… he does. Match to match against the best.
 

El-Jefe

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Ask Sammy Brooks


Saw the same thing and Im sitting there thinking… If he spladles that big bastard Im turning the other way.
Your instinct was correct, for a lot of reasons. Not the least of which: the heavies aren't built to absorb that move.

Thomas Haines spladled an opponent in Hershey (at 220) and sent the kid to the hospital with a torn hamstring. The poor guy let out a blood-curdling scream before he even hit the mat -- and it was loud. I don't know which happened faster: the mercy killing mat slap, or the trainers and stretcher arriving.

Either way, ugh. The video might be on Flo, and I strongly recommend not finding it. That scream is something you don't forget.

(BTW, the spladle was from established top position, not from neutral.)
 

nerfstate

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I agree that AB is the best wrestler in college but I also think he will probably have the best international career if he decides to go that way instead of going the mma route. His freestyle game is already so advanced. Looking at the guys he has beaten is pretty crazy. I mean he has beaten Nate Jackson multiple times I think and Jackson just took a match from J’Den at the trials. Jr. World champ as well. The issue obviously is being in the same weight as DT but after 2024 I think DT retires and 86kg opens up. He could also maybe go 92kg and challenge J’den
I’d agree AB is the most complete at freestyle today too—I was speaking more of the many levels at the senior level, and the possible trajectories of someone with Carter’s drive to get better (reminds me of Burroughs), or RBY’s talent focused on freestyle full time. Of course Aaron is in his own trajectory. One thing is certain, I hope we can have this debate for years to come.
 

Psugo823

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Not if he stays in the middle of the mat and wrestles
Right now he's going to have to make the final to see AB again, and then of course if that happens count on him running directly to the edge of the mat and dancing backwards for 7 minutes again.
 
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nerfstate

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Pretty sure a year ago J'den committed to 97kg and challenging Kyle Snyder for that spot. Didn't hear he was dropping back down to 92kg. Was that announced somewhere?
J’den won world silver at 92 this last September—though he has said he’ll ascend to 97 again for the Olympics in 24—not sure about 2023 or beyond.
 

STAND with PRIDE

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J’den won world silver at 92 this last September—though he has said he’ll ascend to 97 again for the Olympics in 24—not sure about 2023 or beyond.
Yes, he said he’s going UP again, only this time he will make it too scales plenty early.
 
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johnstownsteel

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Johnstown Pa
Records by school in this event:

PSU: 3-0
Missouri: 2-0
Minnesota: 1-0
Illinois: 1-0
Michigan: 1-0
Northern Colorado: 1-0
Iowa State: 1-1
Wisconsin: 1-1
Arizona State: 0-1
Northern Iowa: 0-1
Pittsburgh: 0-1
Princeton: 0-1
Ohio State: 0-1
Iowa: 0-2
Virginia Tech: 0-2
Great work but you know I have to question why you didn't put Iowa at the bottom. At least for the aesthetics...
 

CJFisJoePaII

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Wow. I went to bed because I don't/won't pay for Flo and I'm just now finding out that I may have been able to watch last night. Crap. Sounds like a really entertaining night and obviously a great night for the good guys. I had presumed that all 3 PSU guys were favorites and would win, but it's gratifying to wake up and find out that I was right. It is odd that at an all-star event like this that you still have guys who stall or do nothing but push back and forth across the mat. I get that not everyone has the same wrestling style or the same abilities, but you're at an all-star event and they chose you because they expected you to go all out to entertain and to at least make an attempt to win your match. I've never understood the mentality of a guy who refuses to shoot even though he KNOWS that he'll lose when/if he refuses to do so.

Most guys that stall from Neutral are simply looking to shorten the match - Lewis being a classic example. The 1st Period is longest period in NCAA Wrestling. Additionally, Lewis stalled the entire 2nd Period as Carter got the ESC in a couple seconds. So he went into 3rd Period only down a point on bottom despite being utterly dominated in Neutral for first 5 minutes. Not sure I agree with you that he had no chance of winning without shooting during that first 5 minutes. Again, he was only down 1-0 going into 3rd. His goal was clearly to shorten the match via blatant stalling - the ref rewarded him when he should have forced him to carry 50% of the offensive action which is what he is supposed to do (IOW, by not penalizing Lewis in a manner that forced him to change his stalling behavior via mouting points and potential disqualification - the Official is actually penalizing Starocci who is wrestling according to the spirit of the rules and carrying 100% of the offensive action without reward).
 

CJFisJoePaII

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Our HS had a different name for everything, it seems. What used to be called the "banana split", we called a "can opener". I always preferred that name, cause it described the move perfectly. We called a headlock a "bullmoose". Cool name, but not descriptive.
Also, a shoulder roll was a different move from a Granby. I see a lot of people calling a shoulder roll a Granby, now.

Different regions do have different names for moves. A "can opener" and "banana split" are the same move. There are two elementary moves off of a figure-4 leg in.... reach across hip, arm inside thigh and grab leg above ankle, double bar leg with other hand reaching straight down onto ankle - either role through or back while pulling split with arms and figure-4ed leg.

Other move off of figure-4ed leg in is alternatively called a Grapevine or Guillotine -- reach across hip, grab far arm (usually by wrist), wrap behind your neck while wrapping your arm around opponent's head, lay all the way back, finish head-lock with free arm.
 
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oldcougar65

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Other move off of figure-4ed leg in is alternatively called a Grapevine or Guillotine -- reach across hip, grab far arm (usually by wrist), wrap behind your neck while wrapping your arm around opponent's head, lay all the way back, finish head-lock with free arm.
I went to college with the greatest leg man I've ever been around. Joe Bavaro and he was a 2x NCAA finalist from Gettysburg. We had daily legs drills at Gburg using a single sequence to get into all the moves you listed. Bavaro trashed guys with his legs. He was cruel. You mention 'wrapping your arm around opponent's head'. Joe accomplished that with a crossface you could hear at the back of the gym. His closest match before the NCAA finals was when he was almost DQd for unnecessary roughness. He had 3 back points in the NCAA finals against an Iowa State guy but lost on ref's decision in OT.
When I was youth coaching, I trained my kids the same way, though only a few were good at it. Is 7 too young to start throwing legs?
 

slushhead

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Mar 10, 2014
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Our HS had a different name for everything, it seems. What used to be called the "banana split", we called a "can opener". I always preferred that name, cause it described the move perfectly. We called a headlock a "bullmoose". Cool name, but not descriptive.
Also, a shoulder roll was a different move from a Granby. I see a lot of people calling a shoulder roll a Granby, now.
“Cross-body ride” and “chicken wing” are two terms I seldom see used here but were used in our room. In my description of banana split vs spladle, I normally would have said simply that the split (or can opener) is initiated from a cross-body ride position (spladle is not), but didn’t want to assume others were familiar with my terminology.

Regional, or even room-to-room differences in terminology can be barriers to effective communication . . . but I think we can all agree that The Brunson is universally understood. 😉
 

oldcougar65

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Cross body ride is what we called it in high school. And chicken wing was a standard pin back then. We had a really strong kid who used what we called a "CBC". When his opponent stood up, he put one hand between the guy's legs and lifted him up and threw him down. CBC stood for cross-ball carry.
 

slushhead

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Cross body ride is what we called it in high school. And chicken wing was a standard pin back then. We had a really strong kid who used what we called a "CBC". When his opponent stood up, he put one hand between the guy's legs and lifted him up and threw him down. CBC stood for cross-ball carry.
That was one of my favorite mat returns — we just called it a standing ball & chain. I like your CBC better, though. 🤣

We called CBC a 5 on 2.
“5 on 2” is The Brunson!
 
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CJFisJoePaII

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“Cross-body ride” and “chicken wing” are two terms I seldom see used here but were used in our room. In my description of banana split vs spladle, I normally would have said simply that the split (or can opener) is initiated from a cross-body ride position (spladle is not), but didn’t want to assume others were familiar with my terminology.

Regional, or even room-to-room differences in terminology can be barriers to effective communication . . . but I think we can all agree that The Brunson is universally understood. 😉

Chicken wing or even double chicken wing to immobilize arm(s). Chicken wing + arm bar is a very good turning combination (just keep turning toward the flatten wrestler's head on the side you have arm-bar on.). The problem is that as you go up in skill level, the wrestlers become much stronger and it is harder to gain these positions..... very hard to control an arm of a D1 wrestler with a simple arm bar. It's why you see a lot of cradles for pins (if a wrestler can catch them with head and knee too close to one another.... and get cradle locked, it is very difficult to escape from).
 
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CJFisJoePaII

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That was one of my favorite mat returns — we just called it a standing ball & chain. I like your CBC better, though. 🤣


“5 on 2” is The Brunson!

There is another lift you can execute from standing, or kneeling/tripod position where you gain control of one of opponents arms via the wrist though their legs with one hand.... you lift them using that arm and circle toward head usually using a half-nelson to turn them and put them on their back (continuing to control their arm through their leg so it's like a half-cradle on lower half). Forget what move was called, but opponent can be very quickly put on their back if you can gain the position.
 

mhs103

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Jan 26, 2020
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Cross body ride is what we called it in high school. And chicken wing was a standard pin back then. We had a really strong kid who used what we called a "CBC". When his opponent stood up, he put one hand between the guy's legs and lifted him up and threw him down. CBC stood for cross-ball carry.
In my high school, the CBC was known as the Indiana Hook. In other schools in my locale, I heard it called the Ohio Snag. I don't know the origin of either term.

The Can Opener and Banana Split were known collectively as the "Saturday Night Ride." The move rarely resulted in a pin but usually yielded in a 3 point near fall, or under different circumstances, third base.
 

CJFisJoePaII

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In my high school, the CBC was known as the Indiana Hook. In other schools in my locale, I heard it called the Ohio Snag. I don't know the origin of either term.

The Can Opener and Banana Split were known collectively as the "Saturday Night Ride." The move rarely resulted in a pin but usually yielded in a 3 point near fall, or under different circumstances, third base.

An extremely painful move as well - if somebody is caught early in the period on the move it can result in a pin as the pain is exhausting in itself and sometimes people just can't continue to fight it - it really depends on the length of the wrestler who has the move in relative to the wrestler in near fall position. If they have a significant length advantage, the move can be extremely painful. In general, the best leg-riders have significant length relative to their weight-class.
 

oldcougar65

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The "Saturday Night Ride" is what we called a double grapevine. I decked a guy from Elizabethtown College with it. I slipped it in while throwing a hip toss. As he realized what I had, I heard him say, "Oh, no!"
Just a tip: I've seen lots of wrestlers who throw this move spread their legs to tighten it up. The way to tighten it up is to arch your back as you touch your heels together and lift your feet.
 

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