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Baltimore State's Attorney: 'We Have Probable Cause To File Criminal Charges' Over Freddie Gray's De

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[QUOTE="daveM., post: 124095, member: 556" The facts thus far seem to point he was basically tortured in the back of that van by what the cops call a "crazy ride". .

Facts? The city of Baltimore has a population of over 600,000 and thousands of cameras, yet there isn't anyone or anything that witnessed this "crazy ride"?[/QUOTE]


Take it from me that with the condition of the city streets (they sucked before this past winter) there really doesn't have to be much of in the way of speeding to cause those kind of injuries.
 
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I'm completely confused. Last night they said on the news that the formal investigation was complete and that they found that no wrongdoing was committed by the police and that his injuries were caused by his head hitting the back of the van-one particular bolt??

Were you watching National News?
I ask because I saw nothing on the local news that said anything like that.
I don't think any media source knew what was in the report until this afternoon.
Although there could have been a leak....nahhh that never happens.:rolleyes:
 
Why don't you try sticking to the facts. They didn't drive to the station--they went and picked up another guy. I have no idea why they did this and neither do you, although it seems likely that they were dispatched. So, noting that the station was two minutes is useless at this point.
Seems like the staff of the prosecutors office, as well as the good cops of the BPD, do not find it as "useless" as you do at this point. Perhaps because the stakes are higher, and very real, for them.

You would have a better idea of what they were doing and, importantly, what they were not doing, if you would take me up on that suggestion to watch the prosecutor's PC.
 
Seems like the staff of the prosecutors office, as well as the good cops of the BPD, do not find it as "useless" as you do at this point. Perhaps because the stakes are higher, and very real, for them.

You would have a better idea of what they were doing and, importantly, what they were not doing, if you would take me up on that suggestion to watch the prosecutor's PC.

Thanks, but I like to wait for facts.
 
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Well, you would do well to remember who told you that. Good thing to know for future controversial news stories.

Actually, I did go and re-read about that report in the Wash. Post--same story that I saw on TV. Turns out that it was the police investigation that found no fault with the police. This investigation was turned over to Mosby, from the Attorney's office, who today, apparently ignored the police investigation, and pressed charges against the police.
 
Fine, no justice, no peace. But just know that will destroy the people of Baltimore. I suppose no justice, no peace is a good mantra if you intend to have nothing to do with Baltimore, its people, and their businesses. Tear it up, who benefits from that?
 
what were those two occasions? fill me in.
One time was a specific reported fact about the Mike Brown case. The other had to do with the situation in Ukraine. There, of course, might have been others. I remember those two particularly because I try not to make the same sourcing mistake twice, and it really bothers me when I do.

Edit: OOPS. Remembered another recent one....I was wrong about how the plane crash happened in France. I did not imagine the suicide possibility.

We all make mistakes. I like to work towards reducing my own.
 
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My wife does have some insight into how the BPD operates and says most of arrest like these the cops make an illegal stop and then make some stuff up about the arrest to make it seem on the up and up and the judges, etc always buy it. It is about time change comes because the police have been violating these people's constitutional rights for a long time now. These cops are bad apples and most likely will be convicted if not please before a trial. I hope it does cause some change in Baltimore and around the country on how the police operate.
Hey, don't confuse the goofballs on this thread with any first hand facts.
Too many cops are just punks who want to carry a gun and bully other people.
Like in this case.
 
JEEBUS! and now we find out it that the stated reason for the arrest was a legal weapon! I have so much respect for cops. What they do has got to be one of the most thankless and unforgiving jobs out there but wow. This is not good.

Those guy(s) had an incredibly bad day or they were not on the up and up.


Wow, massive and I mean massive group of people marching down Eager, falls way, and Chase. It looks they trying to encircle central booking.
I can see all of this from the kitchen window. Choppers everywhere.
Its peaceful but a HUGE crowd and incredibly diverse.
But man I feel sorry for anyone trying to get home.
That street that goes past Central Booking (Madison) is narrow enough.
No way cars will ever get through.
 
This is totally ridiculous.

First of all, I'm not sure, but I suspect that fleeing from the police and resisting arrest is a crime.

Second, even if it's not a crime, making an "illegal arrest" does not mean that you committed murder.

Third, not putting a seatbelt on somebody is not murder unless you knew they would die as a result, which is highly doubtful.

Fourth, 6 cops didn't "murder" the guy.

At most, I think you might have a colorable manslaughter charge against one or two cops.

It's a politicized prosecution in a poorly governed jurisdiction.
Fleeing when you have committed no crime is NOT a crime. Strike one.

Taking charge of a person, putting him in a van and causing his death can EASILY be murder in the second degree. Strike two.

You have not seen a single bit of the evidence nor talked to a single witness nor examined the medical examiners report. You are full of shit. Strike three, you're out.
 
Hey, don't confuse the goofballs on this thread with any first hand facts.
Too many cops are just punks who want to carry a gun and bully other people.
Like in this case.
Might be best to look at it as this being the day that the good cops of Baltimore began cleaning house.
 
Actually, I did go and re-read about that report in the Wash. Post--same story that I saw on TV. Turns out that it was the police investigation that found no fault with the police. This investigation was turned over to Mosby, from the Attorney's office, who today, apparently ignored the police investigation, and pressed charges against the police.

The police may well be guilty of something, I don't know. But for sure Mosby doesn't either. She's an inexperienced hack, who rushed to judgement in response to a mob. Welcome to the justice system in the age of Obama.
 
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The police may well be guilty of something, I don't know. But for sure Mosby doesn't either. She's an inexperienced hack, who rushed to judgement in response to a mob. Welcome to the justice system in the age of Obama.

I agree. It was a political decision to charge them. They may well be guilty of something but certainly not "murder" in any degree.
 
You are probably correct. With video of Gray standing on one leg prior to being place in the van, and a witness saying he was in there bouncing around trying to injure himself I don't see how murder or manslaughter charges will stick.

Seems like they are caving to media/political pressure to charge, and then if they are found not guilty of the big charges, there will be more riots with people who will be even more upset.

lol. Trying to injure himself. How many people, in all of history, have ever severed their own spinal cord???????
 
Fleeing when you have committed no crime is NOT a crime. Strike one.

Taking charge of a person, putting him in a van and causing his death can EASILY be murder in the second degree. Strike two.

You have not seen a single bit of the evidence nor talked to a single witness nor examined the medical examiners report. You are full of shit. Strike three, you're out.

I knew you'd chime in and make an ass of yourself.

Running away = reasonable cause, and fleeing a lawful stop is a crime.

No way is putting the guy in a van second degree murder in this case. This is a negligence case at best, and should result in a civil remedy except for the politicalization of the case.

I've heard enough about this case to know that it's easily explainable by a series of non-criminal screw ups, just like the case against CSS, and this always turns out to be the right answer when the alternative is a massive, evil, unlikely conspiracy.

I've also heard enough from you to know that you are a rush-to-judgment, anti-authority, knee-jerker who loves to go off half-cocked at every opportunity, yet you never have your facts or law right. Idiot.
 
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I knew you'd chime in and make an ass of yourself.

Running away = reasonable cause, and fleeing a lawful stop is a crime.

No way is putting the guy in a van second degree murder in this case. This is a negligence case at best, and should result in a civil remedy except for the politicalization of the case.

I've heard enough about this case to know that it's easily explainable by a series of non-criminal screw ups, just like the case against CSS, and this always turns out to be the right answer when the alternative is a massive, evil, unlikely conspiracy.

I've also heard enough from you to know that you are a rush-to-judgment, anti-authority, knee-jerker who loves to go off half-cocked at every opportunity, yet you never have your facts or law right. Idiot.

But all that is not what you said. You basically said they were innocent of all charges. And you are now wrong twice on running away, jackass. Thinking you know what the law is and knowing what the law is--two different things.

I guess you are going to have to wait until you hear the actual evidence before you decide, even though you decided already.
 
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I knew you'd chime in and make an ass of yourself.

Running away = reasonable cause, and fleeing a lawful stop is a crime.

No way is putting the guy in a van second degree murder in this case. This is a negligence case at best, and should result in a civil remedy except for the politicalization of the case.

I've heard enough about this case to know that it's easily explainable by a series of non-criminal screw ups, just like the case against CSS, and this always turns out to be the right answer when the alternative is a massive, evil, unlikely conspiracy.

I've also heard enough from you to know that you are a rush-to-judgment, anti-authority, knee-jerker who loves to go off half-cocked at every opportunity, yet you never have your facts or law right. Idiot.


Sorry but no way in hell is there enough information coming out for you to know thats its easily explainable by a series of non-criminal screw ups.
 
Sorry but no way in hell is there enough information coming out for you to know thats its easily explainable by a series of non-criminal screw ups.

There's not much information, but with what we do have, plus my old standby (conspiracy theories are always bullshit), I know I'm right.

The cops in this case were not a coordinated unit. Two guys arrested, a different guy came by and drove the van, and some other cops observed the situation way later. The arresting cops didn't know the guy was hurt, the van driver just drove the van, and the other guys didn't know what the hell was going on. Could any of them have intervened? Yes, but that doesn't mean they're murderers.

Don't you understand? This IS the C/S/S case.
 
But all that is not what you said. You basically said they were innocent of all charges. And you are now wrong twice on running away, jackass. Thinking you know what the law is and knowing what the law is--two different things.

I guess you are going to have to wait until you hear the actual evidence before you decide, even though you decided already.
I think the problem here is that the Overton Window was shifted for this case, and some people are set on believing what was being said in the unlawful leaks coming out in support of those who have been charged. I don't know that any amount of evidence will suffice for those who fell for it.
 
I think the problem here is that the Overton Window was shifted for this case, and some people are set on believing what was being said in the unlawful leaks coming out in support of those who have been charged. I don't know that any amount of evidence will suffice for those who fell for it.

You believe Freeh, too, dontcha fella?
 
There's not much information, but with what we do have, plus my old standby (conspiracy theories are always bullshit), I know I'm right.

The cops in this case were not a coordinated unit. Two guys arrested, a different guy came by and drove the van, and some other cops observed the situation way later. The arresting cops didn't know the guy was hurt, the van driver just drove the van, and the other guys didn't know what the hell was going on. Could any of them have intervened? Yes, but that doesn't mean they're murderers.

Don't you understand? This IS the C/S/S case.[/QUOTE
You really do need to watch the prosecutor's PC before you settle on that concluding statement. I don't know how you can without doing so. There really is little similarity, if any.
 
And you are now wrong twice on running away, jackass. Thinking you know what the law is and knowing what the law is--two different things.

OK, Mr.I-Know-the-Law. Where's the law that says you get to run away from a lawful stop and nothing can happen to you? Put up or shut up.
 
There's not much information, but with what we do have, plus my old standby (conspiracy theories are always bullshit), I know I'm right.

The cops in this case were not a coordinated unit. Two guys arrested, a different guy came by and drove the van, and some other cops observed the situation way later. The arresting cops didn't know the guy was hurt, the van driver just drove the van, and the other guys didn't know what the hell was going on. Could any of them have intervened? Yes, but that doesn't mean they're murderers.

Don't you understand? This IS the C/S/S case.


This is not the C/S/S case at all.
There are no conspiracy theories, there aren't any Grand Jury leaks, or States Attorney leaks,
no tenuis emails with vague implications, Or an eye witness report 10 or is that 11 years later.
LOL, yea its just like the C/S/S case.o_O
 
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Yes, I've now seen the prosecutor's performance. She's bush league, and it's clear that this is a politicized prosecutor and prosecution.
 
This is not the C/S/S case at all.
There are no conspiracy theories, there aren't any Grand Jury leaks, or States Attorney leaks,
no tenuis emails with vague implications, Or an eye witness report 10 or is that 11 years later.
LOL, yea its just like the C/S/S case.o_O

The cops should have knew he had a broken neck and didn't do anything. They conspired to murder him for no reason.

Sounds just like C/S/S knew that Jerry was anally raping kids and conspired to cover it up, doesn't it? It's about as likely in my view.
 
Yes, I've now seen the prosecutor's performance. She's bush league, and it's clear that this is a politicized prosecutor and prosecution.


Actually she's far superior to any of the last 3 States Attorneys that PA has had.
Ok I guess thats kind of damning with faint praise.
 
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The cops should have knew he had a broken neck and didn't do anything. They conspired to murder him for no reason.

Sounds just like C/S/S knew that Jerry was anally raping kids and conspired to cover it up, doesn't it? It's about as likely in my view.


Well the fact that he was unresponsive might have been a clue.

But yea its just like the C/S/S case. Maybe if you say it enough you can even convince yourself.
 
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I knew you'd chime in and make an ass of yourself.

Running away = reasonable cause, and fleeing a lawful stop is a crime.

No way is putting the guy in a van second degree murder in this case. This is a negligence case at best, and should result in a civil remedy except for the politicalization of the case.

I've heard enough about this case to know that it's easily explainable by a series of non-criminal screw ups, just like the case against CSS, and this always turns out to be the right answer when the alternative is a massive, evil, unlikely conspiracy.

I've also heard enough from you to know that you are a rush-to-judgment, anti-authority, knee-jerker who loves to go off half-cocked at every opportunity, yet you never have your facts or law right. Idiot.
Here are the original charging documents for Gray.

He was arrested for having a switchblade, which he didn't have. If it were illegal to run away from the cops, don't you think they'd have charged him with doing just that? The fact that all the cops said he ran away and was not charged with running away from the cops, means one thing: it's not a crime.

You think it's "easily explainable?" Really? I was watching Fox News and the medical examiner they use for cases like this was asked, "Could he have done it to himself?" "No." "Could a rough ride have caused this?" "I don't see how." (I'm paraphrasing.) I have no idea how all this happened, but "easily explainable" just doesn't fly.
 
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Well the fact that he was unresponsive might have been a clue.

But yea its just like the C/S/S case. Maybe if you say it enough you can even convince yourself.

Oh, you mean like the fact that Jerry was previously investigated for child abuse "might have been a clue"?

BTW, who was he unresponsive to? The arresting officers? No. The driver? No. The cops who looked in later and had no information about what had occurred previously? Yes.
 
Here are the original charging documents for Gray.


He was arrested for having a switchblade, which he didn't have. If it were illegal to run away from the cops, don't you think they'd have charged him with doing just that? The fact that all the cops said he ran away and was not charged with running away from the cops, means one thing: it's not a crime.

You think it's "easily explainable?" Really? I was watching Fox News and the medical examiner they use for cases like this was asked, "Could he have done it to himself?" "No." "Could a rough ride have caused this?" "I don't see how." (I'm paraphrasing.) I have no idea how all this happened, but "easily explainable" just doesn't fly.

Dude. He fled unprovoked. It's reasonable cause. I don't know about this knife thing, but expect to hear more or at least the cops will say they thought it was an illegal knife.

And yes, the case is easily explainable by a series of noncriminal screw ups: the cops injured Gray's neck when they arrested him or his neck was injured in a call that no one saw. They shouldn't have put him in without a seatbelt, but that's standard practice notwithstanding. They should have gotten him medical help, but no one realized until it was too late. It all makes a lot ore sense then some stupid conspiracy theory to the effect that 6 cops in different groups went out and murdered the guy for no good reason.
 
Oh, you mean like the fact that Jerry was previously investigated for child abuse "might have been a clue"?

BTW, who was he unresponsive to? The arresting officers? No. The driver? No. The cops who looked in later and had no information about what had occurred previously? Yes.

Here is the timeline...Pay special attention to to #4, 5 and 6.
I'm not sure where you are getting your "information" but its wrong.
I live in Balto. City and getting much more info than you are.
Also google Jayne Miller at WBAL (a PSU Alum) that has been awesome during this...
For your edification...


Mount St. and North Ave.
According to the statement of charges Mosby read at a news conference, officers Lt. Brian Rice, Garrett Miller and Edward Nero were on bike patrol at 9:15 a.m. near corner of North Avenue and Mount Street where they made eye contact with Gray.

2
1700 Block of Presbury St
Gray ran from Rice, and Rice dispatched over departmental radio he was involved in a foot pursuit. Nero and Miller also began to chase Gray. Gray surrendered to Miller and Nero in the 1700 block of Presbury Street, where they handcuffed him and moved him to a location a few feet away. Gray had his hands placed behind his back and handcuffed in a “prone position." Mosby said that at this point Gray told the officers he could not breathe and asked for an inhaler “to no avail.”

The officers placed him in a seated position when they found a knife in the inside of his pants pocket, with the blade folded into the handle, Mosby said. The knife was not a switchblade and is lawful under state law, she said.

The officers took the knife and put it on the sidewalk. Gray started to flail when Miller tried to put him in a restraining technique called a “leg lace” and “held him down against his will until the BPD wagon arrived.”

Rice, Miller and Nero failed to establish probable cause, as no crime had been committed Mosby said. They “illegally arrested Mr. Gray.”

3
Mount St. and Baker St.
The wagon driver, Goodson, along with officers Rice, Miller and Nero, loaded Gray into the wagon without securing him with a seat belt, which is a BPD general order, the statement said.

Rice then directed the wagon to stop at Baker Street.

At Baker street, Rice, Nero and Miller removed Gray from the wagon and placed flex cuffs on his wrists and leg shackles on his ankles and completed proper paperwork. Nero, Rice and Miller moved Gray back into the wagon, placing him on the floor head first and on his stomach. Again, Gray was not secured with a seat belt.

Rice told Goodson to drive the wagon to Central Booking.

4
N. Fremont Ave. and Mosher St.
After leaving Baker Street, Gray “suffered a severe and critical neck injury as a result of being handcuffed, shackled by his feet and unrestrained inside the BPD wagon.”

From Baker Street, Goodson drove to Mosher Street and Fremont Avenue, where he parked, and checked on Gray.

“At no point did he seek, nor did he render any medical assistance,” she said.

5
Druid Hill Ave. and Dolphin St.
Goodson drove to Central Booking, and a several blocks later he called into dispatch that he needed to check on the status of a prisoner and requested additional units at Dolphin Street and Druid Hill Avenue.

Officer William Porter arrived at the intersection, where he and Goodson went to the back of the wagon to check on Gray. “At that time, Mr. Gray requested help and indicated he could not breathe,” Mosby read from the statement.

Porter asked if he needed medical assistance. Gray said two times he needed a medic but Porter then helped him from the floor to the bench and “at no point did either of them restrain Mr. Gray per BPD general orders, nor did the render of request medical assistance.”

While discussing what to do with Gray, the officers received a request for additional units for an arrest at 1600 W. North Avenue, and Porter left the intersection.

“Despite Mr. Gary’s obvious and recognized need for medical assistance, officer Goodson in a grossly negligent manner chose to respond to the 1600 block of W. North Avenue with Mr. Gray still unsecured” and without aid, Mosby said.

6
1600 North Ave.
Goodson arrived to pick up another individual at W. North Ave. and Pennsylvania Ave., where Nero, Rice and Miller had also responded. At that point, Goodson opened the back of the wagon, where Porter and White saw Gray “unresponsive” on the floor of the wagon.

White, who Mosby said is responsible for investigating two citizen complaints against Gray’s illegal arrest, tried speaking with Gray. “When he did not respond, she did nothing further despite the fact she needed a medic,” Mosby said.

White made not effort to assess his condition, help or call anyone.

Officers then loaded a second prisoner into the opposite side of the wagon and went to the Western District station, where Goodson “for at least the fifth time” did not restrain him, Mosby said.

7
1000 block of N. Mount St., Western District station
At the station, the defendant from the North Avenue arrest was unloaded, and taken inside before officers attended to Gray.

By the time officer Zachary Novak, White, and an unknown officer unloaded Gray, he was “no longer breathing at all."

A medic was called and determined he was in cardiac arrest, and that he was “critically and severely injured."

Gray was rushed to Shock Trauma where he underwent surgery. He died on April 19. The medical examiner ruled his death a homicide and “believed to be the result of a fatal injury that occurred when Mr. Gray was unrestrained by a seat belt while in the custody of the Baltimore Police Department wagon.”
 
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Dude. He fled unprovoked. It's reasonable cause. I don't know about this knife thing, but expect to hear more or at least the cops will say they thought it was an illegal knife.

And yes, the case is easily explainable by a series of noncriminal screw ups: the cops injured Gray's neck when they arrested him or his neck was injured in a call that no one saw. They shouldn't have put him in without a seatbelt, but that's standard practice notwithstanding. They should have gotten him medical help, but no one realized until it was too late. It all makes a lot ore sense then some stupid conspiracy theory to the effect that 6 cops in different groups went out and murdered the guy for no good reason.
Yes, they can stop him for running away, but that by itself is not an arrestable offense. Maybe they originally thought he had a switchblade, but by the time they wrote him up they would have known it wasn't a switchblade, but they put it down as a switchblade anyway; apparently they knew it wasn't true and lied about it.. Another medical examiner / doctor (I can't recall if it's the Fox News guy, I don't think it was) said that you don't see injuries like Gray got outside of a car wreck. Was there a conscious decision on anyone's part to kill Freddy Gray, I don't think so, but so far I've seen no satisfactory explanation as to how his neck could have been damaged the way it was. People in Baltimore have been paralyzed from rough rides in the past, look it up, but the medical examiner Fox News was interviewing said, if I got him correctly, that the damage was worse than what you'd expect to see in a rough ride.. If, as you speculate, the cops hurt his neck when they first arrested him, there is no way, given the extent of his injuries, that they would not have known that they'd hurt him badly.
 
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