Can an elite program be built at Penn State?

[BrucePa]

The answer is YES. See Cael Sanderson.

Cael arrived on campus about a decade ago. Penn State had not won a national title in wrestling since the 1950s. They have now won 8 of the last 9 national titles, with a program built on elite recruiting, world-class coaching, and a relentless focus on excellence. His teams win matches late, come from behind, or just plain beat down opponents. And he only has 9.9 scholarships to work with, spread among about three dozen wrestlers.

Yes, there are a lot of differences between football and wrestling. But attracting top talent, coaching them to be champions, developing championship mindset, and cultivating hearts and backbones of steel are common characteristics. I wouldn't mind seeing Cael on the sideline to instill some motivation.

 

[Raffycorn]

I don't think it's a great comparison. Trying to build a national power in football is significantly more difficult, the competition is much higher, and it takes significantly more money than it does to build a national power in wrestling.

 

[BrucePa]

I don't think it's a great comparison. Trying to build a national power in football is significantly more difficult, the competition is much higher, and it takes significantly more money than it does to build a national power in wrestling.

I agree, it's not a direct comparison, but if it's easier to build a championship wrestling program, why didn't Penn State win a championship for 55 years? Pennsylvania high school wrestling is a national powerhouse, and it took Cael coming here to create not only a champion, but a dynasty.

 

[Sooner Lion]

Elite programs can be built anywhere. All it takes is money.

 

[Kiber]

Elite programs can be built anywhere. All it takes is money.

And it takes waaaaaaaay more money and commitment from the admin to build football than wrestling.

 

[Obliviax]

The answer is YES. See Cael Sanderson.

Cael arrived on campus about a decade ago. Penn State had not won a national title in wrestling since the 1950s. They have now won 8 of the last 9 national titles, with a program built on elite recruiting, world-class coaching, and a relentless focus on excellence. His teams win matches late, come from behind, or just plain beat down opponents. And he only has 9.9 scholarships to work with, spread among about three dozen wrestlers.

Yes, there are a lot of differences between football and wrestling. But attracting top talent, coaching them to be champions, developing championship mindset, and cultivating hearts and backbones of steel are common characteristics. I wouldn't mind seeing Cael on the sideline to instill some motivation.

 

[Texas Lion]

Please don't compare wrestling with football when it comes to building a championship team. That's like comparing apples to fainting goats.

 

[Kiber]

The answer is YES. See Cael Sanderson.

Cael arrived on campus about a decade ago. Penn State had not won a national title in wrestling since the 1950s. They have now won 8 of the last 9 national titles, with a program built on elite recruiting, world-class coaching, and a relentless focus on excellence. His teams win matches late, come from behind, or just plain beat down opponents. And he only has 9.9 scholarships to work with, spread among about three dozen wrestlers.

Yes, there are a lot of differences between football and wrestling. But attracting top talent, coaching them to be champions, developing championship mindset, and cultivating hearts and backbones of steel are common characteristics. I wouldn't mind seeing Cael on the sideline to instill some motivation.

Comparing building an elite football program with building an elite wrestling program is basically like saying if you can build a soap box racer (sorry wrestling) than surely you can build a race-car. Other than both being "sports", they are not evenly remotely close.

 

[GSL]

Hell yes. If, they get rid of Franklin.

 

[Lion8286]

The answer is YES. See Cael Sanderson.

Cael arrived on campus about a decade ago. Penn State had not won a national title in wrestling since the 1950s. They have now won 8 of the last 9 national titles, with a program built on elite recruiting, world-class coaching, and a relentless focus on excellence. His teams win matches late, come from behind, or just plain beat down opponents. And he only has 9.9 scholarships to work with, spread among about three dozen wrestlers.

Yes, there are a lot of differences between football and wrestling. But attracting top talent, coaching them to be champions, developing championship mindset, and cultivating hearts and backbones of steel are common characteristics. I wouldn't mind seeing Cael on the sideline to instill some motivation.

lol. That’s almost like saying an elite football progrram can be built at UConn because of Geno Auriemma.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

The answer is YES. See Cael Sanderson.

Cael arrived on campus about a decade ago. Penn State had not won a national title in wrestling since the 1950s. They have now won 8 of the last 9 national titles, with a program built on elite recruiting, world-class coaching, and a relentless focus on excellence. His teams win matches late, come from behind, or just plain beat down opponents. And he only has 9.9 scholarships to work with, spread among about three dozen wrestlers.

Yes, there are a lot of differences between football and wrestling. But attracting top talent, coaching them to be champions, developing championship mindset, and cultivating hearts and backbones of steel are common characteristics. I wouldn't mind seeing Cael on the sideline to instill some motivation.

Absolutely. And Franklin can do it. But, he needs to be a better game day coach and he needs to land a STAR QB. Franklin is following Mark Richt's trajectory at Georgia - multiple 10 win seasons, good bowl games, win a lot more than lose - but, that wasn't enough for their fans and administration. They gave him 15 years and he went 145-51, 9-5 in Bowl Games (didn't coach his final year, which was a win against Penn State), won more than 10 games in a season nine times, and the nail in the coffin, two SEC Championships. Kirby Smart won a conference Championship and made the CFP in his second year.

 

[Kiber]

Let's start with competing programs. Right now there are approximately 80 (I believe exact number is 79) D1 Wrestling programs. Sounds like a good number. In football the number is about 120, so 79 is not that far below. But take a closer look at the 79 D1 Wrestling programs, and you see many "small" schools. You see many schools such as Clarion, Bloomsberg, SUNY, Shippensburg, Campbell. Not taking anything away from Cael. He's a fantastic coach. But for Cael to lure top rated wrestling talent to Penn State is a whole lot different than Franklin luring top notch football talent to Penn State.

 

[KnightWhoSaysNit]

Building an elite program with Franklin will require elite coordinators. They do not need to be known commodities, but coaches that become elite. Once a team becomes playoff known, or even NC, then the school can justify more money and the salaries that will be required to retain those coaches, or attract those of similar standing.

I don't know about KC yet for the offense, but I don't see Pry as that guy for the defense. Just too many WTF blitzing schemes and blown coverages for me to believe he can direct a national champion caliber defense. Too many blown games in the 4th quarter when we had leads, sometimes big leads.

Franklin clearly is what gets termed a "player's coach," and in our case, a CEO and nice face for the program. But his help in strategies and game management is subpar. In fact I think he gets in the way of making the offense great. We will be good, but not NC-team good.

 

[Kiber]

Absolutely. And Franklin can do it. But, he needs to be a better game day coach and he needs to land a STAR QB. Franklin is following Mark Richt's trajectory at Georgia - multiple 10 win seasons, good bowl games, win a lot more than lose - but, that wasn't enough for their fans and administration. They gave him 15 years and he went 145-51, 9-5 in Bowl Games (didn't coach his final year, which was a win against Penn State), won more than 10 games in a season nine times, and the nail in the coffin, two SEC Championships. Kirby Smart won a conference Championship and made the CFP in his second year.

If you are using Kirby Smart as an example to point out Franklin's poor game-day coaching, then you are definitely using a poor example. Trust me. I live in Atlanta. Majority of Bulldog fans love Kirny because he's an ex-dawg and he bleeds black & red. But they all question his game-day coaching..... Remember the infamous fake punt call vs. Bama in the SEC Champ Game? Remember being up 13-0 vs. Bama in the National Champ Game and then being out-coached by Saban... Ironically, the exact same thing we all accuse of Franklin (poor game-day coaching) is the exact same thing 99% of UGA fans accuse of Kirby.

 

[PSUoh90]

I don't think it's a great comparison. Trying to build a national power in football is significantly more difficult, the competition is much higher, and it takes significantly more money than it does to build a national power in wrestling.

Additionally, PA produces the best wrestlers. PSU wrestling was a sleeping giant for a long time. It probably says a lot about Cael's predecessors tbh.

 

[Obliviax]

Absolutely. And Franklin can do it. But, he needs to be a better game day coach and he needs to land a STAR QB. Franklin is following Mark Richt's trajectory at Georgia - multiple 10 win seasons, good bowl games, win a lot more than lose - but, that wasn't enough for their fans and administration. They gave him 15 years and he went 145-51, 9-5 in Bowl Games (didn't coach his final year, which was a win against Penn State), and the nail in the coffin, two SEC Championships. Kirby Smart won a conference Championship and made the CFP in his second year.

Watching the Browns against the bengals yesterday and this occurred to me:

• tOSU last year Burrow and Fields (Burrow xfers and wins the Heisman and national championship), Haskins
• Oklahoma: Mayfield and Murray, both playing well in the NFL
• Alabama: who doesn't have an Alabama QB on their roster? Tua, Hurts...
• Clemson: Lawrence, Watson
• GA: Jake Fromm

 

[fastlax16]

If we are defining elite as playoff appearances then yes. A few unlucky results over the past few years from potentially already being there more than once. Franklin needs to come to terms with some of his shortcomings and correct them though.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Watching the Browns against the bengals yesterday and this occurred to me:

• tOSU last year Burrow and Fields (Burrow xfers and wins the Heisman and national championship), Haskins
• Oklahoma: Mayfield and Murray, both playing well in the NFL
• Alabama: who doesn't have an Alabama QB on their roster? Tua, Hurts...
• Clemson: Lawrence, Watson
• GA: Jake Fromm

It's probably the single biggest difference maker in college football. Franklin had but lost Fields, and missed on Caleb Williams (those are the two highest ranked QBs I recall CJF recruiting).

 

[PSUoh90]

Franklin needs to come to terms with some of his shortcomings and correct them though.

I think it's a lot more than this. Requires elite assistants and major facility upgrades.

Clemson has been winning with Dabo for a while now, but their recruiting didn't reach the elite-tier until the major upgrades over the past several years.

 

[fastlax16]

I think it's a lot more than this. Requires elite assistants and major facility upgrades.

Clemson has been winning with Dabo for a while now, but their recruiting didn't reach the elite-tier until the major upgrades over the past several years.

Stepping back from this past weekend, the program has been right there.

Just looking at last season, if the big ten sends competent officials to Minneapolis and/or the NCAA doesn't approve Fields bs waiver to not sit then the team is almost certainly undefeated in the regular season and going to the playoff.

 

[Obliviax]

Stepping back from this past weekend, the program has been right there.

Just looking at last season, if the big ten sends competent officials to Minneapolis and/or the NCAA doesn't approve Fields bs waiver to not sit then the team is almost certainly undefeated in the regular season and going to the playoff.

yes...and no. When we are talking about entering elite by being able to beat Minny and Indy, I have to say I am "out". Second, if the NCAA didn't give Fields permission to xfer to tOSU, tOSU would have started this guy named Burrows. I am not sure who he is but he looked a lot like the kid who won the Heisman, a national championship, was the #1 overall pick in the NFL and is the odds on favorite to win rookie of the year.

 

[fastlax16]

Second, if the NCAA didn't give Fields permission to xfer to tOSU, tOSU would have started this guy named Burrows. I am not sure who he is but he looked a lot like the kid who won the Heisman, a national championship, was the #1 overall pick in the NFL and is the odds on favorite to win rookie of the year.

Really? Burrow transferred before the 2018 season (and sat out because thats what transfers do for a season). OSU would have started this guy named Tate...

Tate Martell - UNLV Rebels Quarterback - ESPN

View the profile of UNLV Rebels Quarterback Tate Martell on ESPN. Get the latest news, live stats and game highlights.

www.espn.com

 

[PSUoh90]

Stepping back from this past weekend, the program has been right there.

Just looking at last season, if the big ten sends competent officials to Minneapolis and/or the NCAA doesn't approve Fields bs waiver to not sit then the team is almost certainly undefeated in the regular season and going to the playoff.

There's some truth to that, but 3 of the last 4 OSU meetings weren't as close as the score indicates.

2016 Win: PSU outgained by 137 yards
2017 1-point loss: PSU outgained by 246 yards
2018 1-point loss: OSU was outgained by 100 yards and was a total collapse by PSU
2019 11-point loss: PSU outgained by 190 yards

Additionally, PSU finished outside the top-10 in this year's recruiting rankings and certainly will for the class of 2021. This doesn't happen with elite programs.

 

[PS4814]

Yes, but it would take several things happening that are out of Franklin's control

Just a few thoughts:
1. Demographics would have to change in the region. Pennsylvania is in the bottom 10 as far as growth over the last decade and surrounding states like NJ, NY, Maryland are in the same boat. Smaller pond to fish from means you can't miss on the few big fish - and we haven't been that good at reeling in the big ones lately.

2. The college has to commit the money and resources to compete with other football factories. I know we're not getting a lazy river anytime soon but facilities matter and if the school isn't willing to put up the $$$ to attract the best 'croots then there's not much Franklin can do about that.

3. The media in the state has to start supporting and championing the team instead of trying to get clicks and make names for themselves through negative articles. Look at Ohio - even kids who don't get into OSU support the program and the cult is strong. In Pennsylvania there are many PSU alums and fans, but the culture just isn't there where kids know that if they're good at football they're going to Penn State. I can understand the Pitt media not being on our side, but it'd be nice for the rest of the state to get on board.

 

[fastlax16]

There's some truth to that, but 3 of the last 4 OSU meetings weren't as close as the score indicates.

2016 Win: PSU outgained by 137 yards
2017 1-point loss: PSU outgained by 246 yards
2018 1-point loss: OSU was outgained by 100 yards and was a total collapse by PSU
2019 11-point loss: PSU outgained by 190 yards

Additionally, PSU finished outside the top-10 in this year's recruiting rankings and certainly will for the class of 2021. This doesn't happen with elite programs.

I said looking back, not forward. The last few years the team was close. If a few things go their way and they make 1 or 2 playoffs, I'd imagine recruiting doesn't fall off but that's obviously an assumption. Regardless, there is no obvious sure fire upgrade from Franklin out there unless you think we are hiring Urban. Anyone else is just as likely, probably more likely actually, to come up short of where the program has been since 2016.

 

[Obliviax]

Really? Burrow transferred before the 2018 season (and sat out because thats what transfers do for a season). OSU would have started this guy named Tate...

Tate Martell - UNLV Rebels Quarterback - ESPN

View the profile of UNLV Rebels Quarterback Tate Martell on ESPN. Get the latest news, live stats and game highlights.

www.espn.com

right....I was wrong but my point still stands. Had Burrow not transferred because the staff selected a different QB to start, they would have had Burrow starting. I believe tOSU wants a more run-capable QB and that is why Burrow left. Even at that, my larger point is that elite teams have elite QBs. tOSU had several in the last ten yeas

 

[danvillenit]

I think it's a lot more than this. Requires elite assistants and major facility upgrades.

Clemson has been winning with Dabo for a while now, but their recruiting didn't reach the elite-tier until the major upgrades over the past several years.

Before they were stockpiling 5* recruits Clemson got over the hump with recruiting similar to PSU but had an elite QB, Deshaun Watson. PSU would have been in the playoffs by now if they had first round draft pick at QB.

Despite all the handwringing about clock management, QB recruiting has separated PSU from the playoff teams. For years LSU had top talent but mediocre QB play. They get an elite QB and they win a national championship

 

[PSUoh90]

I said looking back, not forward. The last few years the team was close. If a few things go their way and they make 1 or 2 playoffs, I'd imagine recruiting doesn't fall off but that's obviously an assumption. Regardless, there is no obvious sure fire upgrade from Franklin out there unless you think we are hiring Urban. Anyone else is just as likely, probably more likely actually, to come up short of where the program has been since 2016.

I'm not suggesting we should move on from Franklin because I don't think we should and it isn't happening anyway. I'm saying it would take major assistant/facility upgrades to consistently compete with Ohio State.

The only D1 coach who I'd without a doubt rather have than JF who I think would have been realistically obtainable is Dan Mullen, but the timing was bad.

 

[fastlax16]

right....I was wrong but my point still stands. Had Burrow not transferred because the staff selected a different QB to start, they would have had Burrow starting. I believe tOSU wants a more run-capable QB and that is why Burrow left. Even at that, my larger point is that elite teams have elite QBs. tOSU had several in the last ten yeas

Your point doesn't still stand. Burrow wasn't on the roster and hadn't been for 9 months. They would have been undoubtedly starting decidedly un-elite qb Tate Martell for Day's first season, leading to multiple losses. If Day loses 3-4 games last year the shine is off reaaaal quick.

Its like stating if Fields doesn't decommit from PSU he's our starter the last two seasons and we make the playoffs.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Watching the Browns against the bengals yesterday and this occurred to me:

• tOSU last year Burrow and Fields (Burrow xfers and wins the Heisman and national championship), Haskins
• Oklahoma: Mayfield and Murray, both playing well in the NFL
• Alabama: who doesn't have an Alabama QB on their roster? Tua, Hurts...
• Clemson: Lawrence, Watson
• GA: Jake Fromm

And which schools have the top QB recruits for 2021? Oklahoma, Georgia, Ohio State, Washington, Oregon, Notre Dame, LSU, USC, Alabama, and Michigan.

 

[WestSideLion]

Absolutely. And Franklin can do it. But, he needs to be a better game day coach and he needs to land a STAR QB. Franklin is following Mark Richt's trajectory at Georgia - multiple 10 win seasons, good bowl games, win a lot more than lose - but, that wasn't enough for their fans and administration. They gave him 15 years and he went 145-51, 9-5 in Bowl Games (didn't coach his final year, which was a win against Penn State), won more than 10 games in a season nine times, and the nail in the coffin, two SEC Championships. Kirby Smart won a conference Championship and made the CFP in his second year.

Agree. QB play is the single biggest improvement between 9-10 wins a year and the CFP level. But it’s never that simple. Those pointing to top coordinators and better schemes also call out part of the problem. For whatever reason, James is loyal to the guys who got him from Vandy to PSU. That won’t often be the same ability needed to take the jump at PSU.

We’ll see about KC. I think that move was made with this in mind.

 

[Obliviax]

Your point doesn't still stand. Burrow wasn't on the roster and hadn't been for 9 months.

Its like stating if Fields doesn't decommit from PSU he's our starter the last two seasons and we make the playoffs.

no, it stands. tOSU had two guys on their roster that would have competed in a national championship in the most recent year. My point is that tOSU, along with the other elite programs, are bringing in elite quarterbacks. I don't care about the pedantic details.

 

[PS4814]

right....I was wrong but my point still stands. Had Burrow not transferred because the staff selected a different QB to start, they would have had Burrow starting. I believe tOSU wants a more run-capable QB and that is why Burrow left. Even at that, my larger point is that elite teams have elite QBs. tOSU had several in the last ten yeas

And it seems that many of their QB's over the last decade have been deemed generational talents - regardless if it made sense or not.

Terrelle Pryor - generational talent
Dwayne Haskins - generational talent
Justin Fields - generational talent
and heck even Joe Burrow was at OSU and has been called a generational talent

 

[Obliviax]

And it seems that many of their QB's over the last decade have been deemed generational talents - regardless if it made sense or not.

Terrelle Pryor - generational talent
Dwayne Haskins - generational talent
Justin Fields - generational talent
and heck even Joe Burrow was at OSU and has been called a generational talent

maybe....in terms of sheer talent and contribution to the football team, I'd take each and everyone of those before any of the kids we had. This is not a cut on McGloin, Clifford or McSorley but, and I hate to be blunt, if you don't recognize the differences in talent level between that list of tOSU QB's and ours then we aren't watching the same game.

I guess we miss a five star recruit in Hackenberg who was unreal as a true freshmen but was never the athlete of that list of tOSU QBs.

I've spent a lifetime rooting for underdogs like the Cavs and Browns and Pirates and Indians.....so I've loved rooting for McGloin and McSorely.

 

[Art]

Starts and ends with the guy at the top. He's the guy who identifies the staff and recruits needed. Of course the money has to be there to pay the staff, but PSU is either there or close.

 

[Noffinater]

Elite programs can be built anywhere. All it takes is money.

Money and the school administration committed to spending whatever it takes. Then you need to luck into the right coach.
Alabama and Clemson are great examples.

 

[fastlax16]

no, it stands. tOSU had two guys on their roster that would have competed in a national championship in the most recent year. My point is that tOSU, along with the other elite programs, are bringing in elite quarterbacks. I don't care about the pedantic details.

No it doesn't. Burrow wasn't on their 2019 roster, he wasn't even on their 2018 roster!

If Fields doesn't get the waiver who are their options? Joe Burrow is not one of them.

You have Martell who wasn't good enough to start at Miami and then a bunch of scrubs.

JP Andrade, Ohio State Buckeyes, Quarterback

JP Andrade is a 6-3, 205-pound Pro-Style Quarterback from San Dimas, CA.

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Gunnar Hoak, Ohio State Buckeyes, Quarterback

Gunnar Hoak is a 6-4, 190-pound Pro-Style Quarterback from Dublin, OH.

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Danny Vanatsky's Career Home

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Sidenote- Chugunov apparently went to my high school, we didn't even have a varsity football team when I was a freshman. Good for them.

 

[Obliviax]

No it doesn't. Burrow wasn't on their 2019 roster, he wasn't even on their 2018 roster!

If Fields doesn't get the waiver who are their options? Joe Burrow is not one of them.

You have Martell who wasn't good enough to start at Miami and then a bunch of scrubs.

View embedded media

JP Andrade, Ohio State Buckeyes, Quarterback

JP Andrade is a 6-3, 205-pound Pro-Style Quarterback from San Dimas, CA.

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Gunnar Hoak, Ohio State Buckeyes, Quarterback

Gunnar Hoak is a 6-4, 190-pound Pro-Style Quarterback from Dublin, OH.

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View embedded media

Danny Vanatsky's Career Home

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my point was, even if Fields had not come to tOSU, they had Burrow on the roster. They are recruiting the position at a much more elite-level than PSU and have been for the last decade, at least. And when I discuss recruited, as it is with college teams today, that includes incoming portal players as well.

 

[fastlax16]

my point was, even if Fields had not come to tOSU, they had Burrow on the roster. They are recruiting the position at a much more elite-level than PSU and have been for the last decade, at least. And when I discuss recruited, as it is with college teams today, that includes incoming portal players as well.

They didn't have Burrow on the roster when Fields transferred in... you're either trolling me or you're really dumb.

Burrow left OSU in spring 2018. Fields didn't arrive until January 2019. If Fields doesn't come they do not have Joe Burrow, they have Tate Martell. Burrow is in Baton Rouge even if Fields stays at UGA.

 

[PSUdraw]

Burrow left Ohio State because of Haskins was going to be the starter and Burrow did not even have to sit because he already Graduated from OSU in 3 years.