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Challenging Riding Time

dicemen99

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2005
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Just thought I would throw this out there for discussion purposes. Was thinking about it in the Gfeller-Finesilver match after watching it play out before in a couple of TB matches.

I'm not sure challenging riding time during regulation should be allowed. It usually will only occur after an egregious clock error - and usually a challenge is not needed for this as the refs will do it on their own - or at the end of the match when a second or two is really critical.

Up to that point virtually all changes in status are unchallenged even though there is a delay between escape/reversal, the ref putting up the hand signal and the scorekeeper recording the change. You could argue that this may result in a second or two difference for every change and could accumulate significantly depending on how many changes during a match.

So we let all these "errors" accumulate during the match and then when it is critical we go to the tape and record the change at the exact moment it occurred. At least, that is how Pyles and Mal were discussing it being awarded during the Gfeller-Finesilver match. If you went through every change in position during that match with a fine tooth comb it is unlikely that RT would have ended up at :58. Could have been :56, :59, 1:00, or more or less maybe.

During TBs it seems as if everyone has an eye on riding time and there is a discussion for many of the changes in status if there is more than an instantaneous record of the change. Not so during regulation and you could argue that it would be possible to have one coach with an eye on that during regulation and challenge virtually every change of position which would be a disaster.

Thoughts?
 
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I agree--or that the only thing that could be challenged is the time the ref makes the hand signal (not when the escape or whatever "actually" occurred). But I think you're right--not allowing it at all in regulation makes a lot of sense to me. It was also irksome, if unavoidable, in that match when Finesilver had a good ride going w/ 52 sec of RT and they stopped for blood. Not sure how to solve that issue, but changed the match dramatically.
 
Kind of a crummy situation for Finesilver but he had plenty of chances to win and couldn't get it done. He's the one who gave up the cradle and back points, that's what cost him the match. Not the blood...
 
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Kind of a crummy situation for Finesilver but he had plenty of chances to win and couldn't get it done. He's the one who gave up the cradle and back points, that's what cost him the match. Not the blood...
Sure. Just felt the whistle and restart changed the momentum late. As we often say, if you don’t want to lose late, don’t let it get that close. Gfeller is very good though. Think he’s under ranked at this point.
 
Agreed, Gfeller is a stud and I'm fully convinced he's the better option for OSU at 141 now over Brock's inconsistency.
 
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Just thought I would throw this out there for discussion purposes. Was thinking about it in the Gfeller-Finesilver match after watching it play out before in a couple of TB matches.

I'm not sure challenging riding time during regulation should be allowed. It usually will only occur after an egregious clock error - and usually a challenge is not needed for this as the refs will do it on their own - or at the end of the match when a second or two is really critical.

Up to that point virtually all changes in status are unchallenged even though there is a delay between escape/reversal, the ref putting up the hand signal and the scorekeeper recording the change. You could argue that this may result in a second or two difference for every change and could accumulate significantly depending on how many changes during a match.

So we let all these "errors" accumulate during the match and then when it is critical we go to the tape and record the change at the exact moment it occurred. At least, that is how Pyles and Mal were discussing it being awarded during the Gfeller-Finesilver match. If you went through every change in position during that match with a fine tooth comb it is unlikely that RT would have ended up at :58. Could have been :56, :59, 1:00, or more or less maybe.

During TBs it seems as if everyone has an eye on riding time and there is a discussion for many of the changes in status if there is more than an instantaneous record of the change. Not so during regulation and you could argue that it would be possible to have one coach with an eye on that during regulation and challenge virtually every change of position which would be a disaster.

Thoughts?
It would be fun to see how quickly Tan Tom could blow his challenge bricks at nationals.

Also which coaches (other than Ryan) would abuse this for some very extended lungers.
 
I was running two 10 mat tournaments per season back when the NCAA mandated that all matches have riding time taken into account. The training we had to do for the table help was a bear We also had to purchase many sets of red/green stop watches as we couldn't justify buying riding time clocks for all mats
 
...that must have been long, long ago because riding time has been in use in collegiate wrestling since before 1950 when I handled a clock at Penn State matches...
... there was a time when 2 points could be earned for RT of 2 minutes or longer but that was cut back to only 1 point...
... there was also a time when the wags decided to award 2 points for ONLY the 1st takedown and only 1 point for any subsequent TDs...it was generally called the "Cuvo Rule" after NCAA champion Jack Cuvo who would routinely score 10-15 TDs in a match...oh, well...
 
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...that must have been long, long ago because riding time has been in use in collegiate wrestling since before 1950 when I handled a clock at Penn State matches...
... there was a time when 2 points could be earned for RT of 2 minutes or longer but that was cut back to only 1 point...
... there was also a time when the wags decided to award 2 points for ONLY the 1st takedown and only 1 point for any subsequent TDs...it was generally called the "Cuvo Rule" after NCAA champion Jack Cuvo who would routinely score 10-15 TDs in a match...oh, well...


Up until 2003 tournament matches could be conducted without riding time and consi matches could be 2-2-2 all changed in 2003
 
...just refer to "NCAA Wrestling Rules For Scoring" ... it lays out the history of wrestling rule changes since the early 20's...
...riding time credit was reinstated last in 1941...
... it may be that local tournaments like summer tournaments or Christmas tournaments could bend the rules but I don't think any tournament sanctioned by the NCAA could...
 
I was involved in running several NCAA sanctioned meets the CMSU open would have 400+ wrestlers OSU, Missouri, Iowa, Stanford, as well.as many D2, D3 and NAIAs. We ran 11 mats and I had to find riding time clocks ( stop.watches) for 9 mats as the NCAA did not require riding time up to that year .(open and invites only) .

I remember other tourney hosts scrambling as well as Mats are easy to find (every high school has them). Riding time .clocks were few and far between .

No.we.we're not "bending" the rules. The NCAA's rule change rational was to insure all matches would be won and lost under the same rules because up.to them they were not . I assume the allowing of opens to.run without RT was based entirely on RT clock availability and the quality of table help
 
Here is the quote from the 2004 rule book, prior to this, tournament matches without riding time were OK


b. Use of Time Advantage in Tournaments. The recording of time


advantage (riding time) is required for use in all tournament competition

taking place annually on or after January 1. Matches wrestled

in tournaments conducted on or after January 1 that do not utilize

time advantage shall not count on the NCAA Individual Season

Record Form. (See 1-16.)

It is highly recommended, but not required, that time advantage be

used in early season tournaments (those conducted prior to January

1), All other rules pertaining to the overtime round(s) shall be followed.

The time advantage exception for tournament competition does not

apply to dual meet competition.
 
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Or, we could just get rid of awarding somebody a point for simply staying in a position that they can elect to take without even earning it...
 
Sure. Just felt the whistle and restart changed the momentum late. As we often say, if you don’t want to lose late, don’t let it get that close. Gfeller is very good though. Think he’s under ranked at this point.
Finally listening to Tuesday's FRL. They mentioned that a Duke coach was claiming that Gfeller bit his own lip to bleed. Take it for what it's worth. Maybe Byers was right about the dude.
 
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