CJ-Nolf-Imar

[PSUisawesome]

Just rewatched both finals matches and came away with some interesting observations.
1) Nolfs freshman finals match is maybe the best I've ever seen him wrestle. He's just solid. All heart the best man won that day.
2) Imar is not the same guy against CJ. At the end of the second period against CJ his face is downcast. This is never true against Nolf. Going upper body with CJ in the third was Hail Mary material. 20 seconds left with Nolf Imar is still very much on his game.
3) CJ is not putting in an exceptional performance he's putting in a breakout performance. Everything about his performance can be replicated moving forward. Three things that stand out here CJ's
A) feel
B) pace
C) speed
CJ will stun the wrestling world with his ass kicking this season

 

[matter7172]

Just rewatched both finals matches and came away with some interesting observations.

2) Imar is not the same guy against CJ. At the end of the second period against CJ his face is downcast. This is never true against Nolf. Going upper body with CJ in the third was Hail Mary material. 20 seconds left with Nolf Imar is still very much on his game.

True in the finals with Nolf, but in the dual with Nolf there were a lot of similarities.

 

[nitlion6]

Just rewatched both finals matches and came away with some interesting observations.
1) Nolfs freshman finals match is maybe the best I've ever seen him wrestle. He's just solid. All heart the best man won that day.
2) Imar is not the same guy against CJ. At the end of the second period against CJ his face is downcast. This is never true against Nolf. Going upper body with CJ in the third was Hail Mary material. 20 seconds left with Nolf Imar is still very much on his game.
3) CJ is not putting in an exceptional performance he's putting in a breakout performance. Everything about his performance can be replicated moving forward. Three things that stand out here CJ's
A) feel
B) pace
C) speed
CJ will stun the wrestling world with his ass kicking this season

If Cenzo is truly the dominant beast at 165 this season, do not color me stunned.

 

[RoarLions1]

Dominant? Yes, Cenzo's got the tools to have a great season. Still think it's neck-and-neck at best with IMar, and Massa is really good. Jordan (graduated) and Lewis (to 174) are gone, so a couple obstacles aren't around. He must continue working hard, no one's going to hand him anything.

 

[PSUisawesome]

Dominant? Yes, Cenzo's got the tools to have a great season. Still think it's neck-and-neck at best with IMar, and Massa is really good. Jordan (graduated) and Lewis (to 174) are gone, so a couple obstacles aren't around. He must continue working hard, no one's going to hand him anything.

The reason I am more confident is that I've been watching a lot of Zains matches. He combines pace and speed in a way that creates more and more scoring opportunities as the match goes on. Watching CJs final I saw a lot of Zains pace and speed combined with CJs weird feel. Weird in that he's not smooth in a way that you think of feel wrestlers. CJ appears Herky jerky but the feel is always a half step ahead of Imars. Pace and speed combined with feel. With the X factor that he is training with Zain-Nolf-Mark-Bo-and Casey. Sadly for Imar and Massa I think the only person who can beat CJ this year is CJ.

 

[BDB57]

I believe Nolf's and Joseph's wins are similar in that neither had beaten Imar prior to beating him. Imar may have thought in both cases that this was just another W. It will be interesting if Imar comes with a little more focus and juice next time he faces VJ!

 

[RoarLions1]

Dominant? Yes, Cenzo's got the tools to have a great season. Still think it's neck-and-neck at best with IMar, and Massa is really good. Jordan (graduated) and Lewis (to 174) are gone, so a couple obstacles aren't around. He must continue working hard, no one's going to hand him anything.

The reason I am more confident is that I've been watching a lot of Zains matches. He combines pace and speed in a way that creates more and more scoring opportunities as the match goes on. Watching CJs final I saw a lot of Zains pace and speed combined with CJs weird feel. Weird in that he's not smooth in a way that you think of feel wrestlers. CJ appears Herky jerky but the feel is always a half step ahead of Imars. Pace and speed combined with feel. With the X factor that he is training with Zain-Nolf-Mark-Bo-and Casey. Sadly for Imar and Massa I think the only person who can beat CJ this year is CJ.

Confident how exactly? I was trying to understand nitlion's "dominant beast" comment. What does that even mean?

Here's some facts;
Zain (#1), Jason (#2), Bo (#4), and Mark (#9) were top-10 in the NCAA's Most Dominant Wrestler Award final numbers.

Zain could run the table this year (all Bonus Point Wins), though the odds of doing it for an entire season are against him. Gone is Collica, and doing it 3x vs Sorensen (IF they wrestle 3x) is unlikely, imo.

Jason could run the table too, but may get Kemerer 3x...so again unlikely. And for both Zain and Jason, there's other guys that COULD hold it to a decision...just sayin'.

Bo and Mark should/could be top-5 (Bo again, and Mark WILL improve on his #9 finish). Gone are #3 Dean, #6 Cox, and #8 Gilman, back are #5 Z. Valencia, #7 Gross, and #10 IMar. It's possible PSU will have 4 of the top-5!! Snyder didn't wrestle enough matches last year to make the list, he'll be top-3, for sure.

Question is, where will Cenzo be this year? At 42% Bonus Point Wins last year, and 4 losses, he wasn't top-20 last year. It's my way-too-early thinking that he could be top-10, but nowhere near the Zain, Jason, Kyle, Bo, Mark, Zahid level. Heck, IMar had 69% Bonus Point Wins last year, so he's odds-on, in my book, to finish higher than Cenzo again.

My thoughts only, way-too-early, though data is involved .

 

[matter7172]

I believe Nolf's and Joseph's wins are similar in that neither had beaten Imar prior to beating him. Imar may have thought in both cases that this was just another W. It will be interesting if Imar comes with a little more focus and juice next time he faces VJ!

I can't buy into this. Imar had had two real battles with Cenzo prior to Nationals so there was no surprise - he knew it was going to be a tough match. He might have had that arrogance the first time with Nolf.

But I'm talking more about Imar's body language. There was a surprising level of quit in both matches. Like he knew he wasn't going to win so he just said "f*$# it". It reminded me of Bubba Jenkins at B1Gs against Metcalf in 2009. It was shocking to me against both Nolf and Cenzo.

 

[greenmanRD]

Vincenzo has really good instincts imo. I know we have dissected Imar's performance in the final about a million times, but I never saw this depressed, down on himself Imar. He was in a battle and he needed to score. Imar is always digging for those underhooks, and he went for a big move. Vincenzo's instincts got him out of a very tricky situation into a fall of his own. Instead of saying Imar was already defeated, we should be praising Joseph's instincts to really go for the home run shot that early in the 3rd. It was a trip that could've easily lost him the final if he doesn't work out.

I am not that convinced either that Joseph will dominate like a Nolf or Zain this year. However, I do think he has continued room for improvement and there's no doubt in my mind that he will lace them up and beat at his best in March.

 

[PSUisawesome]

Confident how exactly? I was trying to understand nitlion's "dominant beast" comment. What does that even mean?

Here's some facts;
Zain (#1), Jason (#2), Bo (#4), and Mark (#9) were top-10 in the NCAA's Most Dominant Wrestler Award final numbers.

Zain could run the table this year (all Bonus Point Wins), though the odds of doing it for an entire season are against him. Gone is Collica, and doing it 3x vs Sorensen (IF they wrestle 3x) is unlikely, imo.

Jason could run the table too, but may get Kemerer 3x...so again unlikely. And for both Zain and Jason, there's other guys that COULD hold it to a decision...just sayin'.

Bo and Mark should/could be top-5 (Bo again, and Mark WILL improve on his #9 finish). Gone are #3 Dean, #6 Cox, and #8 Gilman, back are #5 Z. Valencia, #7 Gross, and #10 IMar. It's possible PSU will have 4 of the top-5!! Snyder didn't wrestle enough matches last year to make the list, he'll be top-3, for sure.

Question is, where will Cenzo be this year? At 42% Bonus Point Wins last year, and 4 losses, he wasn't top-20 last year. It's my way-too-early thinking that he could be top-10, but nowhere near the Zain, Jason, Kyle, Bo, Mark, Zahid level. Heck, IMar had 69% Bonus Point Wins last year, so he's odds-on, in my book, to finish higher than Cenzo again.

My thoughts only, way-too-early, though data is involved .

While I appreciate what numbers can tell us I make assessments of this sort based on hours and hours of watching matches. I travel for a living and spend probably 20 a week when I'm busy in airports and hotels. I spend most of that time watching wrestling. I'll watch everything on someone unique like Zain or Mark. Many matches I'll watch 10-20 times at least replaying set ups shots finishes. I've watched Mark's escape in the second period against Bo in the finals more often than I have his TD later that period. If you watch Mark's documentary on FLO you can see him practicing this stand up move by move when he was 15. I don't have a plan I just keep watching an athlete until I understand what he's up to. In Mark's recent FLO interview you get a sense of how much these kids are actually going up against eachother. Mark describes 20 minute goes against Zain. Imagine how lame most opponents feel if you have had to do 20 minutes against Freaking Zain! Watching CJ you can really see the quality of the kids he wrestles every day. He is used to being in the fight of his life. He is also used to having to be superb just to score at all. So yeah I'm confident about what I'm seeing with CJ. I'm not confident about his mindset. His X factor is whether or not he can achieve the confidence of the other four champs. Hence the statement the only thing that will beat CJ is CJ.

 

[El-Jefe]

In Mark's recent FLO interview you get a sense of how much these kids are actually going up against each other. Mark describes 20 minute goes against Zain. Imagine how lame most opponents feel if you have had to do 20 minutes against Freaking Zain!

Most opponents have no idea what it's like to go 7 minutes with Zain.

 

[PSUisawesome]

Most opponents have no idea what it's like to go 7 minutes with Zain.

Indeed

 

[nitlion6]

Confident how exactly? I was trying to understand nitlion's "dominant beast" comment. What does that even mean?

Here's some facts;
Zain (#1), Jason (#2), Bo (#4), and Mark (#9) were top-10 in the NCAA's Most Dominant Wrestler Award final numbers.

Zain could run the table this year (all Bonus Point Wins), though the odds of doing it for an entire season are against him. Gone is Collica, and doing it 3x vs Sorensen (IF they wrestle 3x) is unlikely, imo.

Jason could run the table too, but may get Kemerer 3x...so again unlikely. And for both Zain and Jason, there's other guys that COULD hold it to a decision...just sayin'.

Bo and Mark should/could be top-5 (Bo again, and Mark WILL improve on his #9 finish). Gone are #3 Dean, #6 Cox, and #8 Gilman, back are #5 Z. Valencia, #7 Gross, and #10 IMar. It's possible PSU will have 4 of the top-5!! Snyder didn't wrestle enough matches last year to make the list, he'll be top-3, for sure.

Question is, where will Cenzo be this year? At 42% Bonus Point Wins last year, and 4 losses, he wasn't top-20 last year. It's my way-too-early thinking that he could be top-10, but nowhere near the Zain, Jason, Kyle, Bo, Mark, Zahid level. Heck, IMar had 69% Bonus Point Wins last year, so he's odds-on, in my book, to finish higher than Cenzo again.

My thoughts only, way-too-early, though data is involved .

Dominant beast would be if Cenzo were to seperate himself from the rest of the top end 165 pounders. Zain and Jason fit my definition of dominant beast.

Also, I was responding to OP where it concluded Cenzo will stun people with his ass kicking.

I was simply pointing out if Cenzo takes his game to an even higher level than last season that would make him quite dominant or quite the beast, and I would not be surprised.

Sorry, I assumed it was rather easy to understand.

 

[NoVa Lion]

I believe Nolf's and Joseph's wins are similar in that neither had beaten Imar prior to beating him. Imar may have thought in both cases that this was just another W. It will be interesting if Imar comes with a little more focus and juice next time he faces VJ!

This whole discussion is interesting but the bolded above caught my eye as I am curious as to what you mean. Doesn't EVERY wrestler not beat a particular wrestler until they beat them?

 

[BDB57]

I was thinking along the lines that until someone takes you out, when you have the credentials of Imar, the king on the thrown is not particularly worried. Then when it is happening it can all come crashing down.

 

[NoVa Lion]

I was thinking along the lines that until someone takes you out, when you have the credentials of Imar, the king on the thrown is not particularly worried. Then when it is happening it can all come crashing down.

But didn't Nolf pin Imar the first time they met? So I still am not getting your point. Of course, it could just be that I'm a little dense.

 

[PSU Mike]

I'd love to see Chance get into the top 4 @165. HR might not.

 

[PSUer1989]

I'd love to see Chance get into the top 4 @165. HR might not.

Me too... I hope he can finish out his career successfully and have life long sobriety...

 

[PSUisawesome]

Me too... I hope he can finish out his career successfully and have life long sobriety...

Amen

 

[PSUisawesome]

But didn't Nolf pin Imar the first time they met? So I still am not getting your point. Of course, it could just be that I'm a little dense.

My take on this post was that Imar was overconfident going into his losses and when things went south he couldn't recover. I.E. head down in mat after CJs second TD. This may be the case or Imar gets spooked when he senses he's loosing. In either case this does not bode well for his post college career. I think Imar would have better served in a way tougher practice room. PSU kids are facing world champion toughness every day. They are used to no one giving up ever.

 

[matter7172]

My take on this post was that Imar was overconfident going into his losses and when things went south he couldn't recover. I.E. head down in mat after CJs second TD. This may be the case or Imar gets spooked when he senses he's loosing. In either case this does not bode well for his post college career. I think Imar would have better served in a way tougher practice room. PSU kids are facing world champion toughness every day. They are used to no one giving up ever.

That may be true for the Nolf dual, but he had two tough matches with Cenzo that could have gone either way. To be overconfident in the NCAA final after having a toss-up match two weeks earlier qualifies as massive hubris.

 

[greenmanRD]

Maybe psychoanalyzing Isaiah Martinez's mindset can replace Suriano news.

 

[PSUisawesome]

That may be true for the Nolf dual, but he had two tough matches with Cenzo that could have gone either way. To be overconfident in the NCAA final after having a toss-up match two weeks earlier qualifies as massive hubris.

I was more commenting on the confusion Nova was having. To your point Imar has been clutch in money situations and he's appeared to loose heart in others. Maybe that's just Imar, or maybe that's just being human. I still feel as though CJ and Mark have benefited hugely from being around Nolf and Zain. Imar has no one whose standard he's trying to live up to.

 

[El-Jefe]

Maybe psychoanalyzing Isaiah Martinez's mindset can replace Suriano news.

We obviously didn't resolve that issue the other half dozen or so times.

 

[RoarLions1]

Maybe psychoanalyzing Isaiah Martinez's mindset can replace Suriano news.

We obviously didn't resolve that issue the other half dozen or so times.

Maybe a few more stays at a Holiday Inn would help .

 

[PSUisawesome]

We obviously didn't resolve that issue the other half dozen or so times.

I get it vacation pics from Iceland are a better call. I'm heading to Cleveland next week..,

 

[PSUisawesome]

Maybe a few more stays at a Holiday Inn would help .

Maybe a few more stays at a Holiday Inn would help .

You asked, and I am a platinum member with both the Hilton Hotels and the Marriot. My sh**t is high end

 

[PSUisawesome]

We obviously didn't resolve that issue the other half dozen or so times.

While we are at it why does bitching about stupid sh**t like what there saying on HR get 90 percent of the airtime while actually talking about what interests us about wrestling happens when we have nothing better to do?
Imar actually interests me he's a f**king phenomena in our sport.
His story is one of the stories from this period of college wrestling. How it plays out will be a 10 on the scale of what makes wrestling a great spectator sport. So yeah I find it interesting....

 

[Sumtinwong]

While we are at it why does bitching about stupid sh**t like what there saying on HR get 90 percent of the airtime while actually talking about what interests us about wrestling happens when we have nothing better to do?
Imar actually interests me he's a f**king phenomena in our sport.
His story is one of the stories from this period of college wrestling. How it plays out will be a 10 on the scale of what makes wrestling a great spectator sport. So yeah I find it interesting....

Did we catch feelings

 

[JohnBasedow]

I think Cenzo is very similar to Myles Martin, they both caught lightening in a bottle during the tournament their freshmen year but could easily end on on the outside looking in for a couple years. This weight is loaded and it will be fun to see who emerges.

 

[NoVa Lion]

I think Cenzo is very similar to Myles Martin, they both caught lightening in a bottle during the tournament their freshmen year but could easily end on on the outside looking in for a couple years. This weight is loaded and it will be fun to see who emerges.

I don't see Cenzo as being remotely similar to Martin. Martin's regular season only earned him the#11 seed and at NCAAs he had the weight cleared out for him mostly by others. The only seeded wrestlers he beat were #6 and #1 Bo. Cenzo by contrast had a regular season that earned him the #3 seed and then at NCAAs he proceeded to beat the #14, #6, #2, and #1 seeds.

 

[86PSUPaul]

You asked, and I am a platinum member with both the Hilton Hotels and the Marriot. My sh**t is high end

Just to stir the crap, unless there is some super secret invitation level, Hilton goes to Diamond with no platinum level..... JK

 

[NittanyLion84]

I don't see Cenzo as being remotely similar to Martin. Martin's regular season only earned him the#11 seed and at NCAAs he had the weight cleared out for him mostly by others. The only seeded wrestlers he beat were #6 and #1 Bo. Cenzo by contrast had a regular season that earned him the #3 seed and then at NCAAs he proceeded to beat the #14, #6, #2, and #1 seeds.

Not to mention, Bo had one big move backfire on him, which led to him losing the match. Cenzo was getting the better of IMar, prior to his big move.

 

[tabenn]

I don't see Cenzo as being remotely similar to Martin. Martin's regular season only earned him the#11 seed and at NCAAs he had the weight cleared out for him mostly by others. The only seeded wrestlers he beat were #6 and #1 Bo. Cenzo by contrast had a regular season that earned him the #3 seed and then at NCAAs he proceeded to beat the #14, #6, #2, and #1 seeds.

and the #14 and #6 seeds matches he revenged loses.Yes he had a great tourney but he also improved all season.
So I agree with you on the comparison to Martin

 

[El-Jefe]

I think Cenzo is very similar to Myles Martin, they both caught lightening in a bottle during the tournament their freshmen year but could easily end on on the outside looking in for a couple years. This weight is loaded and it will be fun to see who emerges.

Didn't Martin finish just behind 3 returning national finalists?

 

[Chickenman Testa]

I don't see Cenzo as being remotely similar to Martin. Martin's regular season only earned him the#11 seed and at NCAAs he had the weight cleared out for him mostly by others. The only seeded wrestlers he beat were #6 and #1 Bo. Cenzo by contrast had a regular season that earned him the #3 seed and then at NCAAs he proceeded to beat the #14, #6, #2, and #1 seeds.

And Cenzo's dad is not a limelight-hogging, excuse-making, grammar-deficient, race-baiting ahole.

So there's that difference too

 

[JohnBasedow]

Didn't Martin finish just behind 3 returning national finalists?

Yes and Sammy Brooks.

I know there are differences between Martin and Cenzo, but my point was I think the results post freshman championship run could be similar. This isn't a knock on either guy as both of their weight classes were/are loaded. Heck you can even throw NATO into that group, he won as a freshman and might not be able to win again. He only has one more shot and he is far from guaranteed.

 

[tabenn]

I can't buy into this. Imar had had two real battles with Cenzo prior to Nationals so there was no surprise - he knew it was going to be a tough match. He might have had that arrogance the first time with Nolf.

But I'm talking more about Imar's body language. There was a surprising level of quit in both matches. Like he knew he wasn't going to win so he just said "f*$# it". It reminded me of Bubba Jenkins at B1Gs against Metcalf in 2009. It was shocking to me against both Nolf and Cenzo.

I also noticed Imar body language in both loses to Nolf and Cenzo. It appears to me that Imar may have a mental toughness issue when things get tough, this is not a dig on Imar, no doubt a great talent.

I have read many times how close Imar and his coach Mark Perry were, So I have to wonder that with out Mark in his corner (and in his ear) this season, how will Imar mental game be??? just a thought

 

[El-Jefe]

Yes and Sammy Brooks.

I know there are differences between Martin and Cenzo, but my point was I think the results post freshman championship run could be similar. This isn't a knock on either guy as both of their weight classes were/are loaded. Heck you can even throw NATO into that group, he won as a freshman and might not be able to win again. He only has one more shot and he is far from guaranteed.

That's fair. I think "out of the picture" was a little less so, though probably not intended the way it came across.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Yes and Sammy Brooks.

I know there are differences between Martin and Cenzo, but my point was I think the results post freshman championship run could be similar. This isn't a knock on either guy as both of their weight classes were/are loaded. Heck you can even throw NATO into that group, he won as a freshman and might not be able to win again. He only has one more shot and he is far from guaranteed.

Wish Sammy was still around if only because he put the fear of God in Martin - really bullied him on the mat. Nice guy to have available to knock Martin out