Yeah, I considered both of those factors, and you're probably right. Just trying to help steer the conversation back to OP. Though it looks as though the mods have brought the shop vac to the thread overnight.
Cliff Kean Las Vegas Wrestling Tournament
- Thread starter d-1980
- Start date
Although not quite to the level of 5-7 years ago, the field does look better this year than last.
https://gomocs.com/sports/2018/10/15/2019-southern-scuffle-participants.aspx
I would like to see the Midlands also. If for no other reason to de-thorn the Hawks from their longer winning streak of winning the tourny. ...but I have also heard that Cael does not have a positive history with the Midlands..but I dont know why... I do remember when Mark Hall was a frosh that he wanted to enter the Midlands and was told no room at the Inn, I read a lot of speculation on this board that there were hard feeling between Cael and the organizers...but again just speculation.
Hopefully this year's Scuffle has a better field than last year. Last year there was the issue with OSU going to Italy and not sending their starters, if I remember correctly (I find myself saying that more and more as I get older, I need to create a shortcut to type it out, LOL).
Lehigh is listed here, but the event does not show on their schedule; however, South Beach Duals does show on their schedule. Maybe sending split squads?
2009-10 season:
Nittany Lion Open
Sprawl and Brawl Duals
Reno Tournament of Champions
Virginia Duals
2008-09 season:
Nittany Lion Open
Sprawl and Brawl Duals
National Duals
2007-08 season:
Nittany Lion Open
National Duals
2006-07 season:
Pennsylvania Duals
Nittany Lion Open
Virginia Duals
2005-06 season:
Pennsylvania Duals
Nittany Lion Open
Reno Tournament of Champions
2004-05 season:
PA State Dual Championships
Mat-Town Classic
Nittany Lion Open
Midlands
National Duals
2003-04 season:
East Stroudsburg Open
Mat-Town USA Tournament
Bic Open
Southern Scuffle
Midlands (not a typo -- the top 10 went to Midlands, and the rest of the team went to the Scuffle)
National Duals
etc.
Top 10 reverse sprint times are rewarded with a winter time trip to Ft Lauderdale and everybody else goes to Tennessee.
That's a start. Does anybody have any info going back to 1982-83, when CKLV had its first edition? (I sure don't!)
Looking thru the old PSUWC Newsletters I can;t find that PSU ever went to Vega. Went to Midlands on a regular basis in the 80s and 90s.
Am I correct to assume that red shirts can't wrestle at the South Beach Duals?
Yes, it's dual meet format and not an open tournament, no redshirts.
Thanks for the info! Kind of figured that, but wasn't 100% sure. I do know Northwestern is attending for the first time ever...they've kind of gone to Midlands a few times...
Definitely not the duals portion. They held a round-robin after all of the duals were done, to give the back-ups some matches. No idea if redshirts would be allowed to wrestle in that, although I'd be surprised.
Micic not wresting. Another example of coaches ducking competition. He’s wrestled both duals. No injury and coach says he not ready for 4-6 tough matches. What a JOKE.
Let’s go to tough tournament but sit our best two guys to protect seed.
Let’s go to tough tournament but sit our best two guys to protect seed.
Micic was injured earlier this fall at the Poland Open. He had to withdraw from worlds because of it. I watched both of those duals that he wrestled, and he didn't look like himself. Maybe we should cut these guys some slack when we have no actual idea of the circumstances.
So he was ok to wrestle in the only 2 duals they had, the coach made no mention of an injury and we should accept that? Nah. You can. Your prerogative.
Can’t think of another sport that holds out athletes to avoid competition like college wrestling.
Maybe we should cut these guys some slack when we have no actual idea of the circumstances.
That pretty much goes against the "We decide what is relevant and ignore any supporting facts that go against our bias narrative". What part of that is not clear to you? Duhh
That pretty much goes against the "We decide what is relevant and ignore any supporting facts that go against our bias narrative". What part of that is not clear to you? Duhh
How many other college sports do you follow closely? And do you consider football or basketball players being held out avoiding competition?
How long until NFL Week 17?
My real question here and I don't know the answer for sure is this. No doubt Micic is banged up, many people are banged up. Cael held Cenzo out of the Keystone last year so it happens. But, are they concerned that wrestling 5-6 matches against tough competition may get him hurt or may make him lose? I have no problem holding him out if it's the former. I have a big problem if it's the latter. We'll never know the answer though.
A lot of this comes down to there being no real incentive for him to wrestle in this tournament. He's #2 ranked right now and the #1 isn't there. So, if he doesn't wrestle, he'll stay #2 so why go and risk getting hurt or risk losing. I'd like to see whoever wins 133 in this tourney move to #1. It's a meat grinder and the top 2 guys haven't really wrestled. Rather than slot guys in at the beginning of the season, I'd rather actually see them ranked by what they've actually done this year.
A lot of this comes down to there being no real incentive for him to wrestle in this tournament. He's #2 ranked right now and the #1 isn't there. So, if he doesn't wrestle, he'll stay #2 so why go and risk getting hurt or risk losing. I'd like to see whoever wins 133 in this tourney move to #1. It's a meat grinder and the top 2 guys haven't really wrestled. Rather than slot guys in at the beginning of the season, I'd rather actually see them ranked by what they've actually done this year.
Problem is, imo, unless you're the coaches, the family, the trainers, or the wrestler himself, one doesn't know, so why judge.
The data is clear, wrestling is the highest or second highest injury-rate sport in the NCAA, neck-and-neck with football, and a good bit above the third highest sport, men's ice hockey. So, with that in mind, what's so unusual seeing this? My experience with wrestlers, overall. is that they want to compete, and don't shy away from competition, and it's the trainers and coaches that hold them out.
The data is clear, wrestling is the highest or second highest injury-rate sport in the NCAA, neck-and-neck with football, and a good bit above the third highest sport, men's ice hockey. So, with that in mind, what's so unusual seeing this? My experience with wrestlers, overall. is that they want to compete, and don't shy away from competition, and it's the trainers and coaches that hold them out.
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I'm also disappointed that so many AA-caliber studs are missing good matches. That said, watch this explanation:
I don't have any reason to think that Bormet isn’t making the best decision he can for his team and his guys. I really feel the mental aspect is often overlooked in this sport. His painful memory of Massa's CKLV last year is worth noting. Logan probably lost because of his injury--but I'm not sure we've seen the same mentality on the mat since.
I don't have any reason to think that Bormet isn’t making the best decision he can for his team and his guys. I really feel the mental aspect is often overlooked in this sport. His painful memory of Massa's CKLV last year is worth noting. Logan probably lost because of his injury--but I'm not sure we've seen the same mentality on the mat since.
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Agree with this 100%. My indictment isn’t against Micic. It’s about the coach.
I totally understand you don’t want a hurt wrestler to compete. You’ll never see me say boo in those situations.
My issues are with the situations where wrestler A wrestles a few matches, tough competition comes and they are held out, and then the following week they are back at it on the mat.
Yeah people will say “you don’t know who’s healthy or not,” but it seems very shady to me when you go for example the match right before and right after the toughest competition.
A DO NOT blame the wrestler because I DO believe these kids want to compete.
It’s a huge pet peeve of mine.
Recent examples off top of my head..
NATO wrestles easy match Friday and sits against Suriano on Sunday
Stoll not coming out against Snyder when match still on the line
Stoll sitting against Hermeda when he just wrestled an easy match prior.
Again. I have the highest respect for NATO and Stoll. I’m not putting the blame on them
I saw your previous post before you edited it. You mentioned he won’t allocate a spot if he didn’t wrestle 17 matches.
This is not true. He can allocate a spot under silver standar. 2 out of 3. He would need 8 matches minimum
Thanks for the discussion, pish. Still judging to me. Do you know the exact situation in every case? I sure don't. Heck, I don't know it for our guys and I'm closer than most. The examples you mention aren't bad examples, I just doubt you know enough to draw the conclusions you do. Again, I sure don't.
What happens outside our program simply isn't something I concern myself with, much at all. Too busy enjoying what's in my own backyard. And the CK Tournament has so much talent, I'm going to sit back, relax, and enjoy what I'm able to see/hear/read about it over the next 2 days.
JMO, but you are waaaaay off base here. The college wrestling season is long. Perhaps too long.
The coaches are doing what's best for the athletes. I can pretty much guarantee you that no one, not even our buddy Tom Ryan, is ducking for seeding purposes right now. We are very early in the season. Wrestlers are in various stages of shape due to many factors including injuries, illnesses. Nobody is 100% the whole season. But if you're working your way to 100% facing 5 or 6 high caliber wrestlers is far different than wrestling in a dual here and there.
When you are later in the season, you have to work your way through things. You balance the fine line between healing and keeping yourself on pace to peak for postseason. Right now that is of no concern. Right now the concern is to not derail a season before it really starts.
The season starts in January. Complaining about what is going on right now is not only useless, but is whiny.
The coaches are doing what's best for the athletes. I can pretty much guarantee you that no one, not even our buddy Tom Ryan, is ducking for seeding purposes right now. We are very early in the season. Wrestlers are in various stages of shape due to many factors including injuries, illnesses. Nobody is 100% the whole season. But if you're working your way to 100% facing 5 or 6 high caliber wrestlers is far different than wrestling in a dual here and there.
When you are later in the season, you have to work your way through things. You balance the fine line between healing and keeping yourself on pace to peak for postseason. Right now that is of no concern. Right now the concern is to not derail a season before it really starts.
The season starts in January. Complaining about what is going on right now is not only useless, but is whiny.
Fortunately one already exists: iirc...at least that's what my beautiful, younger wife tells me.
In general, I don't disagree with much of what you are saying here but if it's so long, then wouldn't skipping the Poland tournament be an option so that he's healthy for the actual NCAA season? Or is the freestyle season more important? Or is that a case by case answer?
Didn't Cael tell Q that PSU folkstyle is the priority, then free, then Greco?
Obviously others may have different priorities but perception is everything and it comes across sometimes like guys are picking and choosing who they wrestle whether they are or not.
Why can't this be discussed without the judgement on Pish then by calling him whiny?
Micic can do whatever he wants, but posters and fans are also allowed to question things.
Whatup dice and roar! I'm with pish here.
1. Judging is fine. We're fans on the internet and to me Internet Poetic License is still free of charge.
2. Especially when manners are employed and general douchery is avoided.
3. Especially, especially when a solid case is made. Dude's case (call it judging, whining, whatever; it's fine to me) was clear: Compete, Hold Out, then Compete, pish has "issues with" and "seems shady" and "a huge pet peeve of mine"
4. And he gave not one, not two, not three, but four examples.
That's rock solid internetting to me. Not at all off base or out of line.
The disagreements in this thread mirror the competing interests of the two most important stakeholders in our sport: Wrestlers (+ their coaches/parents) and Fans. It's a fascinating topic this year's early season events have shone a bright light on. And it will continue through the weekend when we all see the ghost of a squad Santoro tries to compete in Rec Hall with on Sunday.
I think the whole discussion is a legit one, with lots of good ideas & convo that can come out of it. But I don't think distilling it down to Wrestler Interests are the SuperTrump and Fans Need to Get a Clue is a fruitful end.
That is one more thing to remember, which kinda goes back to the original problem....
It's my opinion. I think it's whiny at this point. I know everybody is amped up because the season has started, but again I will state that the season really starts in January. There will be plenty of good matchups to see then.
If I were a coach, I would pick and choose the best spots for my wrestlers in November and December. Cael does this with our early schedule. A low-level tourney, a rivalry dual and a couple aimed at advancing wrestling and then on to the meat of the schedule starting with the Scuffle.
The Cliff Keen has grown into a really nice event, but the reality is that it is very early in the season to wrestle that many matches in a short time period against high quality wrestlers if you're not ready. That's a pretty good way to put a kink into your season when it's not really necessary. I don't think many coaches, even Cael, think much differently.
That had nothing to do with specific events and everything to do with approach to training and matches.
I assumed his comment was TIC, but if he really wasn't aware of iirc, I'm glad you mentioned it.
Ok, so you are basically admitting what is happening is what Pish is saying, you just think it's whiny of him to say that. I actually think you may agree to that. If that's the case, that's fine.
Also, I think it's a given that Micic/Bormet shouldn't care one bit about Pish or anyone else's opinion, they gotta do what they gotta do. And to a lesser degree those with opinions shouldn't care a lot that some feel those opinions are whiny and judgy.
This has now gotten off on a meta-tangent. Now back to our regular posting.
[QUOTE="dicemen99, post: 3838310, member: 5424" I will state that the season really starts in January. There will be plenty of good matchups to see then.[/QUOTE]
Amen! I don't really start following wrestling, outside of UNI, until January.
And, to dovetail off of your point, and borrowing from the great John Smith (I genuinely mean that), everything prior to the NCAA tournament is meaningless. Fans only remember who one on THAT weekend.
Amen! I don't really start following wrestling, outside of UNI, until January.
And, to dovetail off of your point, and borrowing from the great John Smith (I genuinely mean that), everything prior to the NCAA tournament is meaningless. Fans only remember who one on THAT weekend.
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