PSU Wrestling with Cael is completely different than BC. What are the records in the last nine years? That’s all that is relevant.
Current college hierarchy?
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Give him some time, he is currently gathering his information to let us know how mediocre Alabama football was during the time between Bryant and Saban.
No doubt that PSU had a good wrestling program before Cael, now with Cael PSU has a great college wrestling program that will be challenging the Gable years at Iowa in terms of overall greatness.
"gee the way glen miller played, songs that made the hit parade, guys like us we had it made,...................."
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Let’s bookmark this thread and revisit 3-4 years down the road. I’m liking the recent trend
And yet for the previous 8 years they seem to be lying flat on their back bewildered, flat and beaten.
Shocking! I'd trade a couple of NC's to have a winning record against them.....NOT!
#HowtopeakinMarch
#mostmeaninglesswrestlingstatpossible
Well, to be fair you have a point. I thought it was a cherry picked number, too but what should the cut off be for this kind of question? These tiers can change pretty quickly. Just look at how quickly the Gophers went from being a legit national title contender to dropping two tiers.
However, I think the reason OP chose the last 8 years as the sample is because there is no way around the fact that Cael Sanderson coming to PSU changed the landscape of college wrestling. Winning seven of the last eight national championship or even seven of the last nine is dynasty level. And these tiers can change in three short years.
When was the last time something as drastic has happened to change college wrestling as Cael Sanderson coming to PSU?
Big 3? You misspelled tOSU and have the incorrect record.
Including MN means calling the list the big 17.
I think the answer to that question is pretty obvious. College wrestling definitely changed when Gable hired on at Iowa. We are currently witnessing a similar transition. Also, don't forget that during the entire time span when Gable was head coach, there was no question which team was the premier program in the US. Any doubts about which team today holds that distinction?
I did the last 8 years because I was trying to look at the *current* hierarchy, not a historical one. So how far do you go back before the results are irrelevant to the current situation? Things change quickly and Penn State's dominance over the last 8 years clearly reflects a shift in power that is both recent and pretty obvious.
Plus programs like Missouri, VT and, even more recently, NC State have either solidified their positions or emerged during the same time period. Not to mention tOSU's rise. So there was actual thought put into deciding on where things are *today*.
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Granted I am a Buckeye, so I am biased.
But, the trend since Logan Steiber arrived on campus really looks like tOSU has bypassed OSU and Iowa as the #2 program.
Of note, a poster above stated tOSU and Iowa are 3-3 in duals. I'm going to have to * that, as one of those losses was when Snyder was wrestling in Russia, and we were leading going into 285. But, history will show Iowa "won" that dual. It is what it is.
Over past 7 years (since Logan's rs-freshman year) total NCAA points :
PSU 854.5
tOSU 627.5
Iowa 618
OSU 585
Past 6 years
PSU 711.5
tOSU 559
Iowa 510.5
OSU 519
Past (edit) 4 years
PSU 478.5
tOSU 432.5
Iowa 359
OSU 303
Now, tOSU has Logan Steiber and Kyle Snyder during that time. And starting next season, they dont have a surefire champion at any weight. So, will the trend continue? IMHO yes, PSU and tOSU are recruiting so far above everyone else and each program will have 10 qualifiers and 6-8 AAs per year going forward. Both programs will probably break 100 points most seasons just based on AAs.
Iowa will score tons over the next 3 years if Spencer Lee remains healthy and could catch up to tOSU in points
I think bottom line.
There is a clear #1, Penn State
There is 2nd tier with tOSU Iowa and OSU, with tOSU being the top of that tier right now.
Then the 3rd tier gets cloudy.
Just my opinions, I could be wrong
But, the trend since Logan Steiber arrived on campus really looks like tOSU has bypassed OSU and Iowa as the #2 program.
Of note, a poster above stated tOSU and Iowa are 3-3 in duals. I'm going to have to * that, as one of those losses was when Snyder was wrestling in Russia, and we were leading going into 285. But, history will show Iowa "won" that dual. It is what it is.
Over past 7 years (since Logan's rs-freshman year) total NCAA points :
PSU 854.5
tOSU 627.5
Iowa 618
OSU 585
Past 6 years
PSU 711.5
tOSU 559
Iowa 510.5
OSU 519
Past (edit) 4 years
PSU 478.5
tOSU 432.5
Iowa 359
OSU 303
Now, tOSU has Logan Steiber and Kyle Snyder during that time. And starting next season, they dont have a surefire champion at any weight. So, will the trend continue? IMHO yes, PSU and tOSU are recruiting so far above everyone else and each program will have 10 qualifiers and 6-8 AAs per year going forward. Both programs will probably break 100 points most seasons just based on AAs.
Iowa will score tons over the next 3 years if Spencer Lee remains healthy and could catch up to tOSU in points
I think bottom line.
There is a clear #1, Penn State
There is 2nd tier with tOSU Iowa and OSU, with tOSU being the top of that tier right now.
Then the 3rd tier gets cloudy.
Just my opinions, I could be wrong
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"current" is relative to your team. You chose 8 years for a specific reason. I won't get into that further but I will agree Penn State is top dog right now. Iowa will never quit trying to climb that mountain! Good for Ohio State stepping up their game in recent years. Hope to see ISU, Minny and Okie State fighting back soon aswell. Our sport needs it
That's exactly my point. When Gable coached at Iowa it is now considered the Gable era of wrestling. This is the Cael era, and it's why we can look at the last 8-9 years as a demarcation for this thread and question.
Mind Boggling
Even the most casual wrestling fan knows PSU is 'currently' the gold standard. One might argue when that became apparent ... 4 yrs ? 3 yrs ago? ... but 'currently' there is no rational argument to the contrary.
I know it's tough for Midwestern fans to deal with, but neither history nor words are going to get the trophy back west of Columbus.
You're gonna have to do it on mats ... deal with it.
Even the most casual wrestling fan knows PSU is 'currently' the gold standard. One might argue when that became apparent ... 4 yrs ? 3 yrs ago? ... but 'currently' there is no rational argument to the contrary.
I know it's tough for Midwestern fans to deal with, but neither history nor words are going to get the trophy back west of Columbus.
You're gonna have to do it on mats ... deal with it.
Nice job providing more context to the points values I gave yesterday over the past five years, your values over the past seven, six and four years (what you meant above when you wrote "Past 5 years") show the same general trends.
That said, over the five year period I posted yesterday, the gaps between the top teams are pretty large. There is a pretty clear separation between PSU - 99.5 points to aOSU - 51 points to Iowa - 37 points to Okie State - 65 points to Mizzou - 35.5 points to Cornell, and then the gaps get much smaller.
Mizzou definitely belongs in the discussion for the "not PSU tier" though. Beyond the NCAA success over the past five years, in dual meets over the past five years, the Tigers are 1-0 vs Iowa, 2-1 versus Ohio State, 2-3 versus Oklahoma State, and 4-0 against Cornell.
8 years is too long for a "current" hierarchy. 5 years is more appropriate since that's the max eligibility for anyone not receiving a medical waiver.
Using a few different critera ... note, each line is 5 teams for readability, not to signify any kind of echelon.
Avg Placement:
PSU 2.0, tOSU 2.8, Iowa 3.6, OkSt 5.6, Cornell 6.8
Missouri 7.2, VT 7.2, Neb 9.2, Mich 10.0, Minny 10.2
Illinois 11.6, NC St 13.6, Lehigh 14.6, Wisc 17.6, Edinboro 19.2
Avg Pts/Year:
PSU 117.6, tOSU 97.7, Iowa 87.5, OkSt 80.1, Missouri 67.1
Cornell 60.0, VT 59.8, Minny 55.9, Mich 53.4, Neb 53.2
Illinois 44.7, NC St 42.6, Lehigh 35.3, Edinboro 35.0, Wisc 30.7
But that doesn't take any trends into account, and also weighs 2014 graduates (who aren't exactly current) the same as 2018 graduates. So let's apply a basic weighting: 2018 x5, 2017 x4, etc. With weighting, the Avg Pts/Year becomes:
PSU 127.1, tOSU 108.4, Iowa 90.8, OkSt 74.7, Missouri 70.9
VT 60.2, Mich 59.0, Cornell 58.6, Neb 53.7, NC St 49.5
Minny 45.9, Illinois 43.7, Lehigh 36.3, Wisc 30.3, ASU 29.2
While each of these methods is flawed, some conclusions can be drawn:
1. The top 4 programs are PSU, Ohio State, Iowa, and Oklahoma State in that order, and with a clear separation between each of them.
2. The rest of the top 15 is relatively stable.
3. Teams trending up: PSU, Ohio State, Iowa, Missouri, Michigan, NC State, Arizona State.
4. Teams trending neutral: Virginia Tech, Nebraska, Illinois, Lehigh, Wisconsin.
5. Teams trending down: Oklahoma State, Cornell, Minnesota, Edinboro.
6. Perennial Top Ten Rutgers doesn't make any of the Top 15 lists, so the data must be garbage.
Using a few different critera ... note, each line is 5 teams for readability, not to signify any kind of echelon.
Avg Placement:
PSU 2.0, tOSU 2.8, Iowa 3.6, OkSt 5.6, Cornell 6.8
Missouri 7.2, VT 7.2, Neb 9.2, Mich 10.0, Minny 10.2
Illinois 11.6, NC St 13.6, Lehigh 14.6, Wisc 17.6, Edinboro 19.2
Avg Pts/Year:
PSU 117.6, tOSU 97.7, Iowa 87.5, OkSt 80.1, Missouri 67.1
Cornell 60.0, VT 59.8, Minny 55.9, Mich 53.4, Neb 53.2
Illinois 44.7, NC St 42.6, Lehigh 35.3, Edinboro 35.0, Wisc 30.7
But that doesn't take any trends into account, and also weighs 2014 graduates (who aren't exactly current) the same as 2018 graduates. So let's apply a basic weighting: 2018 x5, 2017 x4, etc. With weighting, the Avg Pts/Year becomes:
PSU 127.1, tOSU 108.4, Iowa 90.8, OkSt 74.7, Missouri 70.9
VT 60.2, Mich 59.0, Cornell 58.6, Neb 53.7, NC St 49.5
Minny 45.9, Illinois 43.7, Lehigh 36.3, Wisc 30.3, ASU 29.2
While each of these methods is flawed, some conclusions can be drawn:
1. The top 4 programs are PSU, Ohio State, Iowa, and Oklahoma State in that order, and with a clear separation between each of them.
2. The rest of the top 15 is relatively stable.
3. Teams trending up: PSU, Ohio State, Iowa, Missouri, Michigan, NC State, Arizona State.
4. Teams trending neutral: Virginia Tech, Nebraska, Illinois, Lehigh, Wisconsin.
5. Teams trending down: Oklahoma State, Cornell, Minnesota, Edinboro.
6. Perennial Top Ten Rutgers doesn't make any of the Top 15 lists, so the data must be garbage.
I think Okie State starts to reverse that trend. Mr Fix will be a big help in that regard.
I dunno fellahs, Jammenz is pretty convincing. Cael is mediocre at best. I just shipped a box full of PSU championship gear, Bo Nickal bobbleheads, etc to needy kids in Africa. Gonna either devote all my free time to supporting the gophers, or maybe US women's XC skiing...
Great stuff El!
From 2010-2018 (CS era) only 3 teams have finished top ten all 9 years..... PSU, Iowa, and Cornell with O$U and Okie St doing it 8 times.
The average NC score over those 9 years.
PSU 112.3 (last 3 yrs. 137.0)
Iowa 93.2 (91.7)
Okie St 80.2 (79.3)
O$U 78.7 (109.8)
Cornell 72.3 (58.5)
Minn 69.3 (38.7)
Missouri 54.9 (74.2)
Nebraska 46.1 (54.5)
Va Tech 46.0 (64.7)
PSU and O$U have clearly elevated these last three years as have Missouri, Nebraska, and Va Tech to a lesser extent. Iowa and Okie St are flat and Cornell and Minnesota have dropped.
All this data and conversation. What does it all mean.
1. Brands owns Cael.
2. Cael can not coach.
3. As soon as Taylor and Ruth graduate everything will return to normal.
4. Penn State kids take some sort of magic roid that manifests with magical strength, but less than stellar dead lift numbers.
5. Ohio State definitely does it differently.
6. Willie dips coppey, drinks beer and eats hot dogs.
7. Pyles still hasn't told Cael what his plan is.
8. Our slush fund is bigger and better than everybody else's.
9. Gillman is still standing in the parking lot waiting for someone to bring him another beer.
10. The Hodge doesn't mean as much as it use to because the committee would not allow Ryan to tape Snyder's name onto the trophy.
Did I miss anything?
1. Brands owns Cael.
2. Cael can not coach.
3. As soon as Taylor and Ruth graduate everything will return to normal.
4. Penn State kids take some sort of magic roid that manifests with magical strength, but less than stellar dead lift numbers.
5. Ohio State definitely does it differently.
6. Willie dips coppey, drinks beer and eats hot dogs.
7. Pyles still hasn't told Cael what his plan is.
8. Our slush fund is bigger and better than everybody else's.
9. Gillman is still standing in the parking lot waiting for someone to bring him another beer.
10. The Hodge doesn't mean as much as it use to because the committee would not allow Ryan to tape Snyder's name onto the trophy.
Did I miss anything?
Noooooo, I would have paid good money, if you consider $17.56 good money, for the Bo bobblehead.
Of course we know you didn’t ship anything anywhere, unlike the Minny championship shirts from a few years ago!
On a semi serious note. We know teams come out with the championship shirts as soon as it is over so several teams must print some up. I wonder how many and if things go the way we hope for next year, how many other teams will invest in shirts that have a limited chance of seeing the light of day in North America? I know anything can happen during the season, but my question assumes no wrestlers lost to injury, or cruiseliners.
Could be wrong but think the NCAA prints up the shirts the teams wear to the ceremony.
This got me thinking -- what if we normalized the scores to each year's champion? (Example: in 2018 we'll set PSU to 100.0 --> tOSU = 94.3, Iowa = 68.6, Mich and NC St = 56.5, etc.).
Theoretically it should neutralize any year-to-year variables (such as differences in tournament-wide scoring due to new rules or refere emphases).
So here are the top 5-yr averages, with each year normalized to that year's champ:
PSU 93.2, tOSU 78.3, Iowa 70.9, OkSt 65.8, Mizz 54.2
Cornell 49.6, VT 48.8, Goofers 47.3, Neb 43.5, Mich 43.0
Illin 36.9, NC St 33.9, Boro 31.5, Lehigh 28.8, Wisc 25.1
Weighting the years as above (2018 x5, 2017 x4, etc.):
PSU 95.5, tOSU 82.3, Iowa 69.4, OkSt 57.9, Mizz 54.4
VT 46.6, Cornell 45.8, Mich 44.9, Neb 41.5, NC St 37.5
Minny 36.2, Illin 34.1, Lehigh 27.9, Wisc 28.2, Rutgers 21.3
ASU 21.1, Boro 20.7
Looks like normalized data confirm the conclusions above, though Rutgers still not top 10, so back to the drawing board.
At the end of the day, or year to be honest, the only thing that matters is who’s the National Champions as a team (individual titles are great but it’s a team sport)? PSU has dominated over the past eight years and will be the next 4-5 years from my estimation looking at the current recruiting cycles (could change as some don’t live up to the hype).
Oh, the irony. Supports using an individual tournament to determine the team champion, while killing the National Dual Team Championship proposal.
Come on now. Admit it. The really big reason you want a dual tournament championship is so you and your fellow gooffer fans can count all those JRobinson team dual invites as national championships. Just think, The University of Minnesota could become to wrestling what Pitt is to college football. The team with the most imaginary championships.
Now there is a goal to strive for. Yesiree. Pitt and Minnesota sitting in a tree..K-I-S-S-I-N-G
Oh wait, it is only Pitt and Minnesota, nobody really cares what they are doing.
Given Penn State's current dual meet win streak, I think this qualifies as a specious argument.
"But nothing fades as fast as the future
And nothing clings like the past, until we can see
More than this" Peter Gabriel
And nothing clings like the past, until we can see
More than this" Peter Gabriel
This isn't a very healthy attitude. The only things that matter in wrestling are helping young people develop into productive adults, and having fun (both as wrestlers and as fans). Let's not turn into Alabama football fans here...
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