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Gilman (Olympic Version) vs Lee (2021 NCAA Version)

Flying_Tiger

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May 27, 2011
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Gilman, and it may not have been close. It's kind of shocking how little freestyle Lee has done while at Iowa considering his international accomplishments and aspirations. He really needs to get healthy; was a physical mess at the end of NCAAs and it will be worse next year if he doesn't get his knees repaired and have proper time to heal. Just how long is he supposed to postpone his international career? I look forward to the day I can support him in a USA singlet but I'm concerned he is missing out on some of his prime. (see Gable Steveson).
 
Gilman, and it may not have been close. It's kind of shocking how little freestyle Lee has done while at Iowa considering his international accomplishments and aspirations. He really needs to get healthy; was a physical mess at the end of NCAAs and it will be worse next year if he doesn't get his knees repaired and have proper time to heal. Just how long is he supposed to postpone his international career? I look forward to the day I can support him in a USA singlet but I'm concerned he is missing out on some of his prime. (see Gable Steveson).
Did you watch the senior nationals in 2019. I have a hard time picking either one, Spenser tore through the bracket beating both Nato and Vito.
 
Thought it was pretty clear I am factoring in Lee's current physical condition, not the guy that won Senior Nationals in 2019. A healthy Spencer Lee is going to be incredibly hard to beat but the guy we saw at the end of NCAAs looked physically and mentally spent. If he wrestles another year with no ACLs, will we ever see Spencer Lee wrestle to his full potential on the international stage? I think it's a legitimate question, especially when we just saw one of his peers bring home Gold.
 
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Thought it was pretty clear I am factoring in Lees current physical condition, not the guy that won Senior Nationals in 2019. A healthy Spencer Lee is going to be incredibly hard to beat but the guy we saw at the end of NCAAs looked physically and mentally spent. If he wrestles another year with no ACLs, will we ever see Spencer Lee wrestler to his full potential on the International stage? I think it's a legitimate question, especially when we just saw one of his peers bring home Gold.
Yeah agree that 2021 Spenser looked spent at the end of NCAAs and hope he gets healthy. Really look forward Gilman vs Spenser.
 
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Thought it was pretty clear I am factoring in Lee's current physical condition, not the guy that won Senior Nationals in 2019. A healthy Spencer Lee is going to be incredibly hard to beat but the guy we saw at the end of NCAAs looked physically and mentally spent. If he wrestles another year with no ACLs, will we ever see Spencer Lee wrestle to his full potential on the international stage? I think it's a legitimate question, especially when we just saw one of his peers bring home Gold.
Asking uncomfortable (but necessary) questions. There are a whole lot of folks in denial on this issue. Everyone when they are 20-21 thinks they are indestructible- those of us past that age should know better.
 
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Asking uncomfortable (but necessary) questions. There are a whole lot of folks in denial on this issue. Everyone when they are 20-21 thinks they are indestructible- those of us past that age should know better.
The most uncomfortable reality we might (but hopefully won't) have to deal with is that some guys are injury prone. 3 ACL tears, affecting both legs, probably means he is anatomically vulnerable to them, which is a thing. Knew someone from high school who played D1 football, made the All Big Ten freshman team, and then basically tore his ACL every single year after that. Just brutal.

As far as I know, he hasn't had surgery and I'm wondering if he and his doctors have made the calculation that it isn't worth repairing them if they will likely keep tearing. I know Kerk made a similar calculation after re-tearing his ACL. Spencer has said that he's able to be effective without them because of his very strong quads and hamstrings that compensate for the stability loss. The problem with NCAA's this past year is that he did not have enough time to rehab. He looked 100% without the one for over a year.

To answer this very obvious leading question, Gilman would have beaten 2021 NCAAs Lee no question in my mind. He was less than 50% imo. If he was otherwise, we would have seen this match at the trials.
 
If I had to guess, Spencer will get his knees repaired but after 2022, he'll miss 2022 and potentially 2023 depending on how rehab goes. His goal is Olympic Gold, I have never heard him say his goal is to collect as many gold medals as possible so that actually works well.

I think it's pretty clear he will go with rehab then wrestle for next year. He is not dropping his points in the 2022 team race, especially after everyone else came back. Having no ACLs in either knee, that's interesting for sure. He'll definitely look better next year. He looked good without one but I have no idea how he'll look without either. He did win NCAAs regardless fresh off the tear.

End of the day, Spencer is making his own choices. As Tom said "Whatever Spencer wants to do in terms of surgery, that's up to him" He knows his body better than anyone else.
 
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I believe Spencer guessed wrong. If he had thought Olympics were definitely on I believe he may have skipped this year and possibly had a shot. With so little international experience I don’t know how he would have fared. I know Steveson had little experience, however 57 kg and 125 kg are totally different styles.
 
I think a healthy Spencer wins an Olympic gold and it's not that close. That's how good I think he is. I think an 80% Spencer has a chance to win gold and could probably medal.
 
I think a healthy Spencer wins an Olympic gold and it's not that close. That's how good I think he is. I think an 80% Spencer has a chance to win gold and could probably medal.
I'm genuinely curious...why do you say this?

I just don't know how anyone has seen enough of Spencer to think he would win Olympic gold and it wouldn't be close.

I hope we get to see a fully-formed Spencer Lee one day run through the competition and collect Olympic and World golds, but I need to see a lot more than 1 US Open title before I'm going to start making those predictions...
 
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I'm genuinely curious...why do you say this?

I just don't know how anyone has seen enough of Spencer to think he would win Olympic gold and it wouldn't be close.

I hope we get to see a fully-formed Spencer Lee one day run through the competition and collect Olympic and World golds, but I need to see a lot more than 1 US Open title before I'm going to start making those predictions...

It's just my personal opinion after watching him over the years. He is freakishly strong and fundamentally perfect. I think he is that good. Gilman was every bit as good as the guy who won gold and I think Spencer is better than Gilman. That's saying a lot because I think Gilman is fantastic.
 
I think we've seen Spencer at 100% for maybe one month in college - March of 2018. He had mono the next year and was without an ACL since March of 2019 and now without two.
 
Yeah agree that 2021 Spenser looked spent at the end of NCAAs and hope he gets healthy. Really look forward Gilman vs Spenser.
I am not going to weigh in on the Gilman vs Lee debate but I do think Lee was pretty exhausted after NCAA's. Even the great Gable Steveson mentioned in his interview after winning OTT how much the schedule wore on him going from duals, to B1Gs, to NCAAs, right into OTT.

If Gilman stays with it through 2024 I think it will be him vs Lee in the finals and I can't wait to watch!
 
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I am not sure he even wins NCAAs next year with no ACLs, as they say. The field will be considerably stronger next year with Patrick Glory, Vitali Arujau, The Cruise-liner??--Nick Suriano (Maybe) , and PSU 125 wrestler --insert name of next man up.
 
If we are guessing here, I'm gonna go against most everyone's thinking and say Spencer never wins Olympic gold and can't wait until his wrestling days are behind him.
 
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I think we've seen Spencer at 100% for maybe one month in college - March of 2018. He had mono the next year and was without an ACL since March of 2019 and now without two.
Spencer having mono, was that ever confirmed by Spencer himself? I know the idiots on HR were saying it but they say a lot of things when one if their wrestlers doesnt seem right on the mat.
 
If Gilman stays with it through 2024 I think it will be him vs Lee in the finals and I can't wait to watch!
Those 2 plus RBY, Fix, Suriano, Arujau, Tomasello, Colon, Gross, Glory ... plus whoever else ...

That's gonna be a really strong field even if a couple of them retire or fail to qualify.
 
wishful thinking from a hawkeye hater. not sure why you hate america tho haha
Oh I just knew you'd love that one. Lol. Here's some more.. Spencer never coaches at Iowa or any other college for that matter. Hell...he doesn't even have a desire to coach. Nope, he ends up right back in Murrysville and takes a job in an athletic department at Pitt, Duquense or some other college nearby. Larry and mommy move back too. Start putting your eggs into the Bo Bassett basket buddy. Things arent gonna end the way you envisioned. . Lmao.
 
If we are guessing here, I'm gonna go against most everyone's thinking and say Spencer never wins Olympic gold and can't wait until his wrestling days are behind him.
You have to admire the consistency from @johnstownsteel. No waffles for him!

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The most uncomfortable reality we might (but hopefully won't) have to deal with is that some guys are injury prone. 3 ACL tears, affecting both legs, probably means he is anatomically vulnerable to them, which is a thing. Knew someone from high school who played D1 football, made the All Big Ten freshman team, and then basically tore his ACL every single year after that. Just brutal.

As far as I know, he hasn't had surgery and I'm wondering if he and his doctors have made the calculation that it isn't worth repairing them if they will likely keep tearing. I know Kerk made a similar calculation after re-tearing his ACL. Spencer has said that he's able to be effective without them because of his very strong quads and hamstrings that compensate for the stability loss. The problem with NCAA's this past year is that he did not have enough time to rehab. He looked 100% without the one for over a year.

To answer this very obvious leading question, Gilman would have beaten 2021 NCAAs Lee no question in my mind. He was less than 50% imo. If he was otherwise, we would have seen this match at the trials.
Prolly wrong but I seem to remember him having shoulder surgery a few years ago too.
 
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Lee has some of the best top game in the world at any weight and normally finishes FS matches (and Folk for that matter) early with it,the question is…could he take Gilman down??cuz he doesnt get the luxury of choosing top like he would in Folk.
 
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Prolly wrong but I seem to remember him having shoulder surgery a few years ago too.
Was thinking that was Hawk fans speculating at the same time others were saying he had mono. Kinda a blur right now but they were throwing out all kinda of stuff to explain away Spencer not looking like Spencer. Could be mistaken tho.
 
The only way Spencer doesn't coach Iowa is if someone can invent virtual reality technology that can make Pokemon a real thing in the next several years.
 
Oh I just knew you'd love that one. Lol. Here's some more.. Spencer never coaches at Iowa or any other college for that matter. Hell...he doesn't even have a desire to coach. Nope, he ends up right back in Murrysville and takes a job in an athletic department at Pitt, Duquense or some other college nearby. Larry and mommy move back too. Start putting your eggs into the Bo Bassett basket buddy. Things arent gonna end the way you envisioned. . Lmao.
cope
 
I would pay good money to watch a round robin between Matt McDonough, Dan Dennis, Tony Ramos, Thomas Gilman, Cory Clark, Spencer Lee among other Hawks in their prime. I'm a spoiled fan forsure

I hope Spencer's knees hold up somehow. He is a special talent. Hopefully we get to see some future battles between Gilman and Lee. We all would win watching that go down
 
agree with you
If we are guessing here, I'm gonna go against most everyone's thinking and say Spencer never wins Olympic gold and can't wait until his wrestling days are behind him.
I tend to agree with you on this. It seems like he is getting burned out on wrestling and not really enjoying the process.

In fact, I’ll see your prediction and raise it by saying I don’t think Spencer will win NCAAs next year.
 
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I tend to agree with you on this. It seems like he is getting burned out on wrestling and not really enjoying the process.

In fact, I’ll see your prediction and raise it by saying I don’t think Spencer will win NCAAs next year.
Suriano wearing blue and white beats him in finals! Lol
 
I tend to agree with you on this. It seems like he is getting burned out on wrestling and not really enjoying the process.

In fact, I’ll see your prediction and raise it by saying I don’t think Spencer will win NCAAs next year.
I think most look at me as one of this worlds biggest Hawkeye haters which is probably pretty accurate….So naturally, anything I say about Spencer is looked upon as just sour grapes. Being 100 percent honest here though, I can’t shake this feeling that Spencer is just worn out from the “grind” all these years.

I started feeling this way a couple years back when Spencer didn’t seem himself out on the mat. I asked a question earlier in this thread if it was ever confirmed that Spencer had mono that year? I asked that for a reason. When the fans over on HR were speculating and trying to make excuses that he in fact had mono…I felt there was something else going on and it had more to do with his his head and his heart…even if he did have mono. There was also an interview with Tom Brands at that time that struck me as being odd when he was discussing Spencer. Man I wish I could find that interview. Brands almost seemed irritated and my initial reaction to it was Spencer just wants to go back home, hide from the wrestling world and just be a regular guy. Anyway, He’s won 2 national championships since then but my opinion hasn’t changed one bit. Spencer is so good that even if his heart wasn’t in it anymore he could still dominate college wrestling.

Spencer has been wrestling since he was a little boy, much of that time he’s had the entire wrestling world focused on him as the next great thing. The pressures he must have been under and is still under. Add to it the the immense physical toll his body has taken. I genuinely feel bad for him to be honest. Setting aside any opinions I have about his desire to wrestle, just all the injuries alone is enough to break your heart.

JS will say this is all wishful thinking on my part so I’ll just say it right now…. He’s full of shit. I love PSU wrestling and love to hate me some Hawkeyes but there ain’t no damn way I’d wish any of that on any kid. Especially one that is giving his heart and soul to this sport. And trust me, I’ve been around my fair share of a kid just searching for a way to be happy in this world… you feel and pray for kids like that.

I hope I’m wrong, My God above I really hope I’m wrong on this but I think Spencer is looking forward to his college wrestling career to end. I think in his mind his last big goal is to be Iowa’s first 4 timer and to step away on his terms. Not the coaches… not his teammates…not his parents and certainly not the fans. And if he does, I hope he has one helluva happy and enriching life because he sure as hell earned it.
 
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This is completely unrelated to Spencer but talking to some people who are in the room of some elite D-1 programs .... I can confirm burnout is 100% real. There are some elite wrestlers, some winning national championships who don't enjoy it but it's what they do and what they're good at.

I think a lot of people even speculated Mark Hall looked kind of done with it by the end here.
 
I think most look at me as one of this worlds biggest Hawkeye haters which is probably pretty accurate….So naturally, anything I say about Spencer is looked upon as just sour grapes. Being 100 percent honest here though, I can’t shake this feeling that Spencer is just worn out from the “grind” all these years.

I started feeling this way a couple years back when Spencer didn’t seem himself out on the mat. I asked a question earlier in this thread if it was ever confirmed that Spencer had mono that year? I asked that for a reason. When the fans over on HR were speculating and trying to make excuses that he in fact had mono…I felt there was something else going on and it had more to do with his his head and his heart…even if he did have mono. There was also an interview with Tom Brands at that time that struck me as being odd when he was discussing Spencer. Man I wish I could find that interview. Brands almost seemed irritated and my initial reaction to it was Spencer just wants to go back home, hide from the wrestling world and just be a regular guy. Anyway, He’s won 2 national championships since then but my opinion hasn’t changed one bit. Spencer is so good that even if his heart wasn’t in it anymore he could still dominate college wrestling.

Spencer has been wrestling since he was a little boy, much of that time he’s had the entire wrestling world focused on him as the next great thing. The pressures he must have been under and is still under. Add to it the the immense physical toll his body has taken. I genuinely feel bad for him to be honest. Setting aside any opinions I have about his desire to wrestle, just all the injuries alone is enough to break your heart.

JS will say this is all wishful thinking on my part so I’ll just say it right now…. He’s full of shit. I love PSU wrestling and love to hate me some Hawkeyes but there ain’t no damn way I’d wish any of that on any kid. Especially one that is giving his heart and soul to this sport. And trust me, I’ve been around my fair share of a kid just searching for a way to be happy in this world… you feel and pray for kids like that.

I hope I’m wrong, My God above I really hope I’m wrong on this but I think Spencer is looking forward to his college wrestling career to end. I think in his mind his last big goal is to be Iowa’s first 4 timer and to step away on his terms. Not the coaches… not his teammates…not his parents and certainly not the fans. And if he does, I hope he has one helluva happy and enriching life because he sure as hell earned it.
JTS gettin all mushy like.
 
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