Going forward, QB in 2023

marshall23

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2013
18,187
28,217
1
Trevor Lawrence’s stats as a true freshman were light years ahead of Hack’s….so apparently O’Brien must have failed in his development of Hack.
Stayed clear of him in the draft as well. Very telling....and never picked him up in 3 subsequent opportunities.
9 inch hands....
 

palmettolion

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2014
1,082
1,858
1
He looks like he needs another year in the strength and conditioning program. He has already shown he's tough to bring down and we all know about his arm. A little faster and stronger, maybe a little smarter about a few on those hits he absorbed and he's going to be really good.
 

republion

Well-Known Member
Mar 24, 2009
2,274
4,084
1
Don’t get me wrong- it’s nice to have a clear cut #1 going into next season knowing our starter is retiring.
 

doctornick

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2007
2,997
1,615
1
Hack was pretty good his first two years. As a true Frosh he did great. And who can forget that incredible 4 OT win? The drive to tie it up was a QB clinic. I don't know what happened to him after that. I am sure some was his but Donovan wasn't a great OC. Hell, he sucked.
Allen Robinson graduated and he couldn’t just chuck up 50/50 balls and expect the receiver to get them.
 

mcpat

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Mar 13, 2021
3,483
7,679
1
We haven't had a great QB since Kerry Collins.
You aren’t the first person to say this but I vehemently disagree.

Our previous starting QB is in his 4th year in the NFL. The starter before him was on active NFL roster for 4 years. Daryll Clark is probably the most underrated QB we ever had and Michael Robinson, when finally given a chance to start at QB, ended up 5th in Heisman voting.
 

mcpat

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Mar 13, 2021
3,483
7,679
1
You aren’t the first person to say this but I vehemently disagree.

Our previous starting QB is in his 4th year in the NFL. The starter before him was on active NFL roster for 4 years. Daryll Clark is probably the most underrated QB we ever had and Michael Robinson, when finally given a chance to start at QB, ended up 5th in Heisman voting.
Daryll Clark 2008 & 2009:

5,505 passing yards
493 rushing yards
60 total TDs
143 Passer Rating
22-4 record
2-0 vs Michigan
1-1 vs Ohio State
#8 and #9 AP final poll
2008 Big Ten Championship (tied)
 

doctornick

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2007
2,997
1,615
1
well, you can say the same of McSorely and McGloin too.

The question was, why was Hackenberg worse after his freshman year. The answer for Hackenburg is because he no longer had his go to receiver to bail him out on long passes which was his bread and butter and the bulk of his value. You asked what was the difference between 2013 Hack and 2014/15 and I told you.

Do other QBs benefit from having top WRs who can go up and get balls? Absolutely of course. And sure that happened with McGloin with Robinson and McSorely with Godwin. But they could both do other things as a QB effectively - Hack was pretty subpar at short and medium passes (I don't think I've seen a college QB so inept at screen passes) and not a great runner either. So, he had little to fall back onto when he didn't have receivers bailing him out. Obviously, it didn't help that the porous O-line gave him like half a second to throw but even when he would have time, he wasn't all that accurate.

Don't get me wrong, Hackenberg seems like a great guy and a loyal Penn Stater and I like him. But he was not a good QB despite some awesome measurables.
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Jul 8, 2001
10,143
11,039
1
65
State College, Pa
Hack was pretty good his first two years. As a true Frosh he did great. And who can forget that incredible 4 OT win? The drive to tie it up was a QB clinic. I don't know what happened to him after that. I am sure some was his but Donovan wasn't a great OC. Hell, he sucked.
Franklion wanted him to do more RPO and he wasn’t that type of QB. O'Brien was doing a great job with him his freshman year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Spin Meister

IANit

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2002
2,229
2,077
1
Iowa
Hack washed out of the NFL because he was less developed leaving Penn State than when he got there. That takes a special kind of incompetence on Franklin's part. Of, and he had a wrecked throwing shoulder.
Franklin's hands were kind of tied with Hack. His skillset didn't align with the offense Franklin wanted to run. The OL wasn't great. Hack got hit a lot and lost his confidence. Todd Bowles never wanted Hack and gave him zero chance to succeed.
 

Obliviax

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2001
110,544
62,492
1
Franklin's hands were kind of tied with Hack. His skillset didn't align with the offense Franklin wanted to run. The OL wasn't great. Hack got hit a lot and lost his confidence. Todd Bowles never wanted Hack and gave him zero chance to succeed.
Agreed. Hack was here when the sanctions hit the worst. He wasn’t as good as he was built up to be but he really helped sustain the program during the worst of it
 

marshall23

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2013
18,187
28,217
1
Agreed. Hack was here when the sanctions hit the worst. He wasn’t as good as he was built up to be but he really helped sustain the program during the worst of it
No one should question the character or commitment of Christian. Taking issue with those who insist that somehow CJF ruined the "Hope Diamond" has nothing to do with #14's loyalty or his place in PSU history during that miserable time.
 

Bob2022

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2022
229
285
1
You aren’t the first person to say this but I vehemently disagree.

Our previous starting QB is in his 4th year in the NFL. The starter before him was on active NFL roster for 4 years. Daryll Clark is probably the most underrated QB we ever had and Michael Robinson, when finally given a chance to start at QB, ended up 5th in Heisman voting.
"When finally given a chance" I was begging Paterno in my mind of course to have Robinson play, he could have been a star.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mcpat

Obliviax

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2001
110,544
62,492
1
You aren’t the first person to say this but I vehemently disagree.

Our previous starting QB is in his 4th year in the NFL. The starter before him was on active NFL roster for 4 years. Daryll Clark is probably the most underrated QB we ever had and Michael Robinson, when finally given a chance to start at QB, ended up 5th in Heisman voting.
Well, that's just peachy. Other teams have starters, we are happy with a kid that never sees the field in the regular season.
 

SR108

Well-Known Member
Jan 13, 2004
16,741
6,655
1
It's also reasonable to assume he will have a pretty good running game.
He should also benefit from a solid running game given who comes back on the OLine and in the backfield. There should not be too many games that he has to win with his arm.

Biggest ? Is at receiver.
 

Obliviax

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2001
110,544
62,492
1
He should also benefit from a solid running game given who comes back on the OLine and in the backfield. There should not be too many games that he has to win with his arm.

Biggest ? Is at receiver.
Somebody once called it "complimentary football".
 
  • Like
Reactions: SR108

lazydave841

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2021
2,850
2,853
1
Somebody once called it "complimentary football".


7:25 mark

Mild play action fake. Couple step drop and throw. Deep ball TD to KLS.

Perfect example of complimentary football. Running success sets up the play, play was executed very well.

If Allar can make this throw 40% of the time, that's going to be a lethal offense. Cliff made this throw about 17%. And that's when he actually threw it. He probably held the ball too long or scrambled away on 50% of similarly called plays.
 

Obliviax

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2001
110,544
62,492
1


7:25 mark

Mild play action fake. Couple step drop and throw. Deep ball TD to KLS.

Perfect example of complimentary football. Running success sets up the play, play was executed very well.

If Allar can make this throw 40% of the time, that's going to be a lethal offense. Cliff made this throw about 17%. And that's when he actually threw it. He probably held the ball too long or scrambled away on 50% of similarly called plays.
Agreed. While I hate the 'wait for next year' mentality, 2023 is setting up nicely. It will also be interesting to track UM and tOSU players for portal and NFL defections.
 

BBHorn86

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Dec 6, 2003
1,898
1,694
1
Agreed. And lets face it, we haven't had a highly recruited QB since Hackenberg. We haven't had a great QB since Kerry Collins. Really, the difference between PSU and tOSU since Hackenberg (and probably before) is QB.
Hackenberg 2.0 is not what we need to be successful in this division. That is exactly what scares me about Allar. I would rather have Veillaux for his smoothness, athleticism and ability to beat you with his legs. Much like JJ McCarthy does. I'm not rooting against Allar but I feel like I've seen this movie before and without a strong OL and clean pocket that rocket arm still means 8-4 type seasons.
 
  • Wow
Reactions: GregInPitt

lazydave841

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2021
2,850
2,853
1
Agreed. While I hate the 'wait for next year' mentality, 2023 is setting up nicely. It will also be interesting to track UM and tOSU players for portal and NFL defections.

I think with Michigan, the biggest potential portal/defection is Harbaugh.

The Buckeyes, they have to replace Stroud. They've been 3/3 since JT Barrett. No reason to assume they won't make it 4. They probably do something wacky. 2 straight to Michigan is probably going to drive them nuts. Problem is, they have more 5*s than the rest of the conference combined.
 

Texas Lion

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Aug 10, 2018
3,955
4,149
1
Hackenberg 2.0 is not what we need to be successful in this division. That is exactly what scares me about Allar. I would rather have Veillaux for his smoothness, athleticism and ability to beat you with his legs. Much like JJ McCarthy does. I'm not rooting against Allar but I feel like I've seen this movie before and without a strong OL and clean pocket that rocket arm still means 8-4 type seasons.
Kid is probably still 19 years old and will enter his second off season conditioning with the program. Will he be the next Lamar Jackson, no......but he isn't Tom Brady......the kid has mobility.
 

SR108

Well-Known Member
Jan 13, 2004
16,741
6,655
1


7:25 mark

Mild play action fake. Couple step drop and throw. Deep ball TD to KLS.

Perfect example of complimentary football. Running success sets up the play, play was executed very well.

If Allar can make this throw 40% of the time, that's going to be a lethal offense. Cliff made this throw about 17%. And that's when he actually threw it. He probably held the ball too long or scrambled away on 50% of similarly called plays.
I still believe KLS has untapped potential. Hopefully he really breaks out next year. He had a good game vs MSU. Hopefully Allar can throw receivers open, something Cliff struggled to do.
 

Zone-Blitz

Well-Known Member
Oct 27, 2013
1,017
1,676
1
Franklin's hands were kind of tied with Hack. His skillset didn't align with the offense Franklin wanted to run. The OL wasn't great. Hack got hit a lot and lost his confidence. Todd Bowles never wanted Hack and gave him zero chance to succeed.
Hack lost his starting job in the now defunct Alliance of American football league and fell to 3rd string. Maybe Bowles was onto something
 

SR108

Well-Known Member
Jan 13, 2004
16,741
6,655
1
Hackenberg 2.0 is not what we need to be successful in this division. That is exactly what scares me about Allar. I would rather have Veillaux for his smoothness, athleticism and ability to beat you with his legs. Much like JJ McCarthy does. I'm not rooting against Allar but I feel like I've seen this movie before and without a strong OL and clean pocket that rocket arm still means 8-4 type seasons.
Should have a pretty strong and decent depth OL coming back next year. At least 3 starters returning, with at least two true Freshman who played a lot of snaps and played well.
 

SR108

Well-Known Member
Jan 13, 2004
16,741
6,655
1
Kid is probably still 19 years old and will enter his second off season conditioning with the program. Will he be the next Lamar Jackson, no......but he isn't Tom Brady......the kid has mobility.
He will also have a stout Defense and an above average running game.
 

Obliviax

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2001
110,544
62,492
1
I think with Michigan, the biggest potential portal/defection is Harbaugh.

The Buckeyes, they have to replace Stroud. They've been 3/3 since JT Barrett. No reason to assume they won't make it 4. They probably do something wacky. 2 straight to Michigan is probably going to drive them nuts. Problem is, they have more 5*s than the rest of the conference combined.
There is a really good chance tOSU replaces their DC. Day is now under some heat and will need to scapegoat somebody.
 

Texas Lion

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Aug 10, 2018
3,955
4,149
1
There is a really good chance tOSU replaces their DC. Day is now under some heat and will need to scapegoat somebody.
Replace the DC after 1 year?

If anything I think he will hand play calling duties to Kevin Wilson.
 

mcpat

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Mar 13, 2021
3,483
7,679
1
Well, that's just peachy. Other teams have starters, we are happy with a kid that never sees the field in the regular season.
By your definition, Tim Tebow wasn’t a great college QB?
 

lazydave841

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2021
2,850
2,853
1
There is a really good chance tOSU replaces their DC. Day is now under some heat and will need to scapegoat somebody.

I'm not sure if they cut ties with Knowles just yet unless they go after Jim Leonhard and decide to change the defense to a 3-4.

Johnson honestly might be the one who gets cut. Basically the only holdover from last years defensive staff. Multiple high end DL recruits and outside of one game where Clifford made one guy look like Reggie White and TJ Watt combined, the group didn't make much noise.

They have 2 DB coaches as well. Both in year 1. After the big passes to Michigan, one of them might eat some blame. Gave up similar to us, we just didn't win the game.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Obliviax

NoBareFeet

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2019
537
713
1
The only thing I can say for sure about Allar is that he has a very strong arm. Unfortunately, arm strength is about the 10th most important thing you need to be a great QB.

He might end up being a great QB. I hope he does. But the hype you hear from the announcers on TV is way overblown. High recruiting ranking and rocket arm give them massive boners. But will he have the pocket presence, accuracy, decision making ability, and the ability to quickly find the open man? Remains to be seen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BBHorn86

Obliviax

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2001
110,544
62,492
1
The only thing I can say for sure about Allar is that he has a very strong arm. Unfortunately, arm strength is about the 10th most important thing you need to be a great QB.

He might end up being a great QB. I hope he does. But the hype you hear from the announcers on TV is way overblown. High recruiting ranking and rocket arm give them massive boners. But will he have the pocket presence, accuracy, decision making ability, and the ability to quickly find the open man? Remains to be seen.
I think he's shown a lot more than that. He steps up, and has shown, good pocket presence. He's shown that he can run well enough to compliment the position. He's shown he can command the team in a challenging environment (Purdue when SC got hurt). he's shown he can deliver the ball on the run. He's shown he is willing to finesse a throw (put air under it).

His decision making is still to be tested. Can he process receivers in real time? Can he read defenses? What is his accuracy for short, medium and long throws? Those, and more, we don't know yet. But a lot of that is coaching. And what he does have cannot be coached. No coach is going to give him that strong arm, make them 6-5, and more.

Lastly, that strong arm is more than just fun. it allows him to deliver the ball, on a rope, running to his left or right. It also allows him to throw a deep-out pattern without fear of it being picked off. These skills require the D to cover more of the field for longer. It is why, if you want to be a starter in the NFL, you have to show a strong arm at the combine. Trace and McGloin would be very good NFL QBs, if they had strong arms. Colt McCoy as well. They just don't have the arm strength to make all the throws and put pressure on the D to cover all layers of the field.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sullivan

Obliviax

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2001
110,544
62,492
1
By your definition, Tim Tebow wasn’t a great college QB?
I never said that. There literally hundreds of ways to judge a QB. Tebow had a TON of talent around him and is a physical specimen. He just didn't have the arm.
 

87 Penn St8

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2009
1,147
1,475
1
Chester County, PA
I still believe KLS has untapped potential. Hopefully he really breaks out next year. He had a good game vs MSU. Hopefully Allar can throw receivers open, something Cliff struggled to do.
I'll agree with the potential...and he definitely stepped up Saturday which is a good a good sign.

I also clearly remember him dropping a pass over the middle in the first series vs. Michigan that clearly was designed for him. He then dropped another early and found the bench.

Vs. Rutgers this year he created little separation...my seats in the upper deck at the 40 afforded a great view. He was an afterthought.

He started maybe too early, appears to have lost confidence and that of his qb/ coach. I hope he maximizes his opportunity!
 

McCloudersportLion

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2019
2,935
1,792
1
Hackenberg 2.0 is not what we need to be successful in this division. That is exactly what scares me about Allar. I would rather have Veillaux for his smoothness, athleticism and ability to beat you with his legs. Much like JJ McCarthy does. I'm not rooting against Allar but I feel like I've seen this movie before and without a strong OL and clean pocket that rocket arm still means 8-4 type seasons.
ThunderousGratefulBoto-max-1mb.gif
 

NoBareFeet

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2019
537
713
1
It is why, if you want to be a starter in the NFL, you have to show a strong arm at the combine.
Like bazooka armed Drew Brees, who has thrown for more yards than anyone in league history?

Having a strong arm is nice, but again it is an often overrated trait when looking for a quarterback.
 

Obliviax

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2001
110,544
62,492
1
Like bazooka armed Drew Brees, who has thrown for more yards than anyone in league history?

Having a strong arm is nice, but again it is an often overrated trait when looking for a quarterback.
But it cannot be taught.