going into the 1993 season, i was only a teenager then but i do remember psu having question marks on offense at almost every position but the potential was there, thanks in part to the stellar 1991 recruiting class which then started to fill up the vacant starting positions, which will be the same case this year with the stellar 2018 recruiting class, and 93 we went into the season relying heavily on the defense, and by seasons end the offense finished top 3 in almost every statistical category which set the stage for 94 and we all know how 94 played out, i find this season eerily similar to 93
Going into this season reminds me of
- Thread starter PSU_Smitty
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I hope you're right and I definitely see the comparison. I feel very good about Sean and his ability with the weapons he has
I like all your points... back then the track record of producing OL -men was vastly different. Until we show the ability to generate quality OL-men returns on a consistent basis. I am not nearly optimistic. Talent and stars are there, is this the year?
This has been discussed on here many times. The offensive system we use now works, but you can't judge OL by the same standards that we did prior to the RPO offense. They're not firing out and attempting to blow open a pre-designated hole for the runner. They often don't even know if it's a pass or run.
Someone tell Sean Clifford he's not allowed to play volleyball.
if i remember correctly the 93 oline there was 1 senior and 4 sophmores on it and 1 of the sophmores, johnson i think it was, began his carreer as a dtackle, but what i think that 91 recruiting class had that we havent seen in awhile is luck, just so happen all that potential developed and came together all at the exact same time 94, all that was missing was experience which they got in 93, i know football changed dramatically in the last 10-20 years but if you dont have luck then that what makes a good team a great team and psu havent had luck in quite sometime, i hope this year we finally get lucky for a change
The system has nothing to do with quality line play. Barkley Sanders having to make guys miss consistently in the backfield. Look out blocks and human turnstile blocks have nothing to do with the system.
The system works. And when the quality of line play equals the skill position and penn state can take over games in the 4th. Then they will become elite.
Two guys, including the best, center, are gone off a not so hot line. That leaves the unit as a major question mark yet again.
Lets hope they take a major step forward.
One senior on this OL in gonzo. Amd then thorpe who switched back. I dnt think 93 was luck. I wont think this year is either. The opportunity is there for some guys. Time for them to seize the moment
Yes, an interesting comparison, with the caveat that players develop and play earlier in their college careers (the better one's at least). As the 1991 recruits had a full 2 years at PSU, and the 2018 recruits had only 1 full year to develop physically and mentally (with the EE's having an additional 1/2 year).
It was a fun time at the end of the 1993 season as KCollins showed he was a real gun slinger. Can Clifford develop into the passer and playmaker required in the current more wide open college game, and can the young OL led by Gonzo show improvement? The unknowns each season, the hope of each team's fans, are what make college football special....
Some here will continue to throw stones at the OL talent and depth, but with Gonzo being a very experienced 5th year player and both Fries and Menet being 4th year returning starters this OL nucleus is pretty experienced by current college football standards. And both Thorpe (3rd year player) and Walker (2nd year) were top talent recruits, the type of talent that starts at top programs in their 2nd or 3rd years. We also have enough depth even without Scruggs who may not play this season, with Miranda a 3rd year player battling to start, Whigan being a JC player with considerable post H.S. experience, Holmes a 3rd year player likely at OT, and Effner a 2nd year player. The pieces are there for a better OL if Limegrover can live up to his billing as a developer of OL talent.
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100% agree...the system has little do with crunch time plays when our OL gets blown up in the interior or our tackles i.e. Fries and Bates last year were destroyed in a big moment passing play...system or not....if that position doesn't improve, neither will the team all that much. When the OL goes, the team goes...hence 1994, 2005, etc.
This team reminds me more of the 1980 team, particularly on offense. That team had two QBs who had not played but were super talented, Balckledge and Hoss; this team has Clifford and Levis. The 1980 team had a stable of stud RB's led by sophomore Curt Warner, who played sparingly as a FR in '79; Ricky Slade would be the comparison; the '80 team also had a deep stable of backs including Williams, Coles and Meade (anyone who is too young to know of Coles and Meade, they were big time football players); the current team has Cain, Brown, Ford and Holmes. The '80 team had a group of young WRs led by Kenny Jackson and Kevin Baugh and a nice 1-2 punch at TE including a veteran Brad Scovil and a young stud in Mike McCloskey; the current team has a similar TE duo in Bowers and Friermuth and of course the young WRs, KJ, Dotson, et al. The 1980 had a group of OL who were not great but had very productive careers - Bill Dugan, Billy Contz, Dave Laube, Bobby Jagers... and a few young studs in Munchak, Farrell, and Romano, compared to the current veterans like Menet, Gonzo and Fries and the younger, more high end talents in Thorpe and Walker and maybe Wallace.
The 1980 team went 10-2, won the Fiesta Bowl and finished #6 in the nation and set the stage for two great teams in '81 ad '82. Hopefully we are about to go on the same type of run.
The 1980 team went 10-2, won the Fiesta Bowl and finished #6 in the nation and set the stage for two great teams in '81 ad '82. Hopefully we are about to go on the same type of run.
Team will win some, team will lose some. Team will win a game it shouldn't, team will lose a game it shouldn't. Some people will feel team underachieved, some people will feel team overachieved, some will feel team did as expected. Some people will be happy, some will be content, some will be pissed off. So in essence, the same as every year since 1986.
Maybe I'm too much of an optimist, but I see upgrades to the Oline. You have two mean road graders battling it out for the right guard spot, and you have a major upgrade in athleticism and a true left tackle at left tackle. You also have not one but two tight ends that can actually block to go along with the other three returning starters. I am very excited to see this OLine play.
Some very interesting things about this team are:
1) a defense that is projected top 5 or so in the nation, should keep us in every game
2) more young, highly regarded, but mostly unproven talent at some positions on offense such as RB, WR, and QB than we have had in a long time, the crème will rise to the top
3) a schedule that allows for a young, talented, but inexperienced offense to get its feet under it before any big tests. It may not be until the 7th game with Michigan that we know how good we really are.
Yes, there are unproven positions. But I see a lot of highly regarded young talent ready for their shot and plenty of time to get settled and in rhythm before the toughest tests. I like us at 10 wins as the over /under. I also think Clifford and the young WRs may catch us all by surprise and really change the dynamic of the offense.
I also don't know how you keep the two 5 star freshmen LBs off the field even with all of the starting positions seemingly spoken for. I think game by game they start to force themselves in with more and more reps similar to what Micah did last year.
I think DT is one of the less proven positions on D but brings a lot of talent that should be more experienced this year (Mustipher, Hawkins, Barber and the other youngins) and hopefully healthy (Jordan, Hansard) to go with a couple already proven guys like Windsor and Shelton.
I also think there are interesting options at the safety spot Nick Scott left behind. I am inclined to think we have an upgrade there by the end of the season.
I agree just how good we can be hinges on the Oline but I also see potential and I see good help from the TE position and some very talented skill guys that could shine with just a little time and space.
1) a defense that is projected top 5 or so in the nation, should keep us in every game
2) more young, highly regarded, but mostly unproven talent at some positions on offense such as RB, WR, and QB than we have had in a long time, the crème will rise to the top
3) a schedule that allows for a young, talented, but inexperienced offense to get its feet under it before any big tests. It may not be until the 7th game with Michigan that we know how good we really are.
Yes, there are unproven positions. But I see a lot of highly regarded young talent ready for their shot and plenty of time to get settled and in rhythm before the toughest tests. I like us at 10 wins as the over /under. I also think Clifford and the young WRs may catch us all by surprise and really change the dynamic of the offense.
I also don't know how you keep the two 5 star freshmen LBs off the field even with all of the starting positions seemingly spoken for. I think game by game they start to force themselves in with more and more reps similar to what Micah did last year.
I think DT is one of the less proven positions on D but brings a lot of talent that should be more experienced this year (Mustipher, Hawkins, Barber and the other youngins) and hopefully healthy (Jordan, Hansard) to go with a couple already proven guys like Windsor and Shelton.
I also think there are interesting options at the safety spot Nick Scott left behind. I am inclined to think we have an upgrade there by the end of the season.
I agree just how good we can be hinges on the Oline but I also see potential and I see good help from the TE position and some very talented skill guys that could shine with just a little time and space.
Im not saying you are wrong. I hope your right. Until the track record makes a 180 i will continue to bite my fingernails. I don't want to rain on your optimism.
We knew Collins was going to be good -- he had been spectacular in the BW game. We knew Engram was going to be back. We knew they were loaded at running back. We didn't know about Brady at TE or the OL being as good as they turned out to be.
But it was a very different era -- the B1G was so different. Iowa and Wisconsin were in transition and not good, MSU didn't have the athletes to mount much of a threat, Minnesota was a joke, NW was still bad. It was really PSU, Ohio State and Michigan.
Now the team is loaded, could be really good at lots of positions but the B1G is so much more challenging week to week. A trip to Iowa City, a trip to East Lansing, even a trip to Minneapolis is a real challenge.
I like it better now but I don't dream about 12-0 or 11-1 seasons. Getting to double digits is a pretty incredible season nowadays.
But it was a very different era -- the B1G was so different. Iowa and Wisconsin were in transition and not good, MSU didn't have the athletes to mount much of a threat, Minnesota was a joke, NW was still bad. It was really PSU, Ohio State and Michigan.
Now the team is loaded, could be really good at lots of positions but the B1G is so much more challenging week to week. A trip to Iowa City, a trip to East Lansing, even a trip to Minneapolis is a real challenge.
I like it better now but I don't dream about 12-0 or 11-1 seasons. Getting to double digits is a pretty incredible season nowadays.
Regarding the OL....
https://bwi.rivals.com/news/veterans-new-pieces-on-offensive-line-make-for-intriguing-offseason
Veterans, New Pieces on Offensive Line Make for Intriguing Offseason
Nate Bauer • BlueWhiteIllustrated
@NateBauerBWI
In Ryan Bates and Connor McGovern, two of Penn State’s most veteran starters, at any position, left the program to pursue their professional careers following the 2018 season.
An undeniable blow to the makeup of the Nittany Lion offensive line moving forward, the group is not left without potential for the 2019 season. Rather, in Steven Gonzalez
a 29-game starter through his three seasons of action at Penn State, plus Will Fries (20 starts in two seasons), and
Michal Menet
(another 12-game starter last season), the position group still boasts plenty of experience in spite of its offseason losses.
Even so, Penn State offensive line coach Matt Limegrover’s high hopes for the group this season are tempered somewhat by the realities that inherently come with the position itself.
“You could have five starters coming back, and you're still going to be nervous, because there are always factors,” Limegrover said. “I had a guy tell me my first or second year in coaching, As an O-line coach, you never have a good day. You never get all five of those guys, even if they're returning, even if they're all pretty good, there's never a time where all five of them do everything right for an entire practice or an entire game. It's just the nature of it.”
Matt Limegrover will welcome three returning veterans on the offensive line this season.
Determined to get as close to that standard of success as possible, though, the Nittany Lions’ ongoing offseason is a good place to progress toward those goals.
And with the understanding that two new pieces will be in the mix to replace the likes of Bates and McGovern, be it Rasheed Walker
or Anthony Whigan at left tackle, or C.J. Thorpe or Mike Miranda
at right guard, Limegrover is counting on that already existing veteran presence to help shepherd the group throughout the summer months.
“I think one of the big things is that you really lean on your veterans… because they've been through it. So they know what the summer should look like,” said Limegrover. “The nice thing is, having some time to work with them, you can also help set that course and meet with those guys. You keep it under the guidelines, but be able to make sure that as they go along with the rest of their week, that they're thinking about the things you want them to think about, getting focused.
“The summer is a good time to get them together and introduce that. Then they can work a lot of techniques and you can help them with some of the new scheme stuff and kind of get their minds right heading into August.”
Certainly, the Nittany Lion offense will be counting on the group to continue to gel and take strides given its relative standing as a veteran group during the season ahead.
Offensive coordinator Ricky Rahne, understanding that a new quarterback will be at the helm following the graduation of Trace McSorley, acknowledged that May, June, and July will be critical months for the line as preseason camp gradually approaches. Optimistic about its potential given the group’s performance through the program’s spring practices, Rahne noted the ways the line can build on its flashes of true success during the 2018 season.
“I’m excited about them this summer and what they did in the spring,” said Rahne. “I really think that, for the most part, this summer is going to be critical to them. Getting around each other, making sure that they are always on the same page, working with the same people. When the offensive line works together as a fist and not five individual fingers, they're much more powerful that way.
“We've gotta continue to make sure that they're doing that and I feel like that really came along throughout the end of spring. And there were times, even against our very best opponents last year, where our offensive line was doing some dominant things. So we just need to continue to get that in longer stretches out of everybody, but especially out of them.”
Getting that will require a quick acclimation from Penn State’s two new pieces, regardless of how the battles play out in the preseason.
With head coach James Franklin suggesting this spring that both guard and tackle could see some type of rotation, a departure from last season in which the five starters consistently saw an overwhelming majority of the snaps, Penn State is anticipating real competition in the preseason. And, maybe more important, Penn State is also anticipating that competition to be a daily presence even once the season begins.
“We're going to give every single guy in that group a chance to compete,” said Limegrover, cautioning against making presumptions about starters based on the end of spring practice in which Walker and Thorpe appeared to hold the first-string jobs at tackle and guard, respectively. “Anthony Whigan as a junior college guy, he spent most of the spring just trying to get caught up with the terminology and understanding the offense and he was like a different guy at the end of the spring than he was at the beginning. So I'm looking for that development. He's a guy that we didn't necessarily bring in to just sit back as a junior college guy so he's going to be pushing for it. Des Holmes is a veteran in the group and has been around.”
The same principle applies at right guard, Limegrover continued, ultimately acknowledging that as many as nine or 10 players will “have a great opportunity” to earn significant minutes this season.
“C.J. is a guy who did a real nice job, but then again, Mike Miranda was a guy at guard who started the Maryland game for us last year and really did a nice job. So those two guys are in there,” said Limegrover. “We're gonna have some young guys that are going to surprise some people, some true freshman. Juice Scruggs should be back healthy at some point coming up. So there's a lot of pieces that no one should feel super comfortable. And everyone should understand that it's truly a best five is going to play scenario right now.”
It all lines up to have a really good season. 5-0 should be a no brainer. Then the 3 game stretch of at Iowa, Michigan and at Michigan State will decide how good of a season we can have. 2-1 through that stretch and we'll likely have a season determining game in week 11 at OSU. By then, the offense will be plenty experienced and hopefully the defense will have lived up to their expectations. With the way the last three games have gone with them, it'll be another coin flip game. I'm not sure why there's not more excitement around this year's team.
That’s where I’m at. This team, just on paper, has every chance in the world to be really, really, really good. Who hurt us so badly to make so many around these parts so pessimistic?
I do think, even with the losses, it's the most experienced line since sanctions. Menet, Gonzo and Fries are veterans, and Holmes, Miranda and Thorpe should be ready to step in and play well. The expectations for Walker might not be fair -- the guy is a redshirt freshmen and he is going to take his lump as he gets experience. But hopefully by midseason .... The only worry I have about OL is depth at tackle. They cannot afford to lose anybody there.
The improvement at TE is a huge factor for this team. Friermuth is no question the best young TE in the program's history, Bowers is a veteran if he can stay healthy.
To me the biggest inflection point might be the tall receivers -- Shorter, George and Chisena. For this offense to work well Penn State has to have the tall receivers beating smaller corners and safeties -- a la 2016 and 2017. If Kuntz is ready to play, he could be helpful as well. If just one of the tall receivers can come in and do what Johnson couldn't do last year, catch the ball over the middle and win the jump balls, then Hamler and Dotson become much more effective.
The improvement at TE is a huge factor for this team. Friermuth is no question the best young TE in the program's history, Bowers is a veteran if he can stay healthy.
To me the biggest inflection point might be the tall receivers -- Shorter, George and Chisena. For this offense to work well Penn State has to have the tall receivers beating smaller corners and safeties -- a la 2016 and 2017. If Kuntz is ready to play, he could be helpful as well. If just one of the tall receivers can come in and do what Johnson couldn't do last year, catch the ball over the middle and win the jump balls, then Hamler and Dotson become much more effective.
The depth at OT, although somewhat unknown, could also turn out to be more than adequate. Holmes will be in his 3rd year and has gotten some positive reviews including on the scout team as a true freshman. And Whigan, one of the top couple JC OT's this past year, would likely be starting for a number of P5 teams. I'm hoping to see both of these backups get some quality reps in the non conf games............
I just unfortunately keep thinking about those “Just OK” television commercials whenever I think of our Offensive Line. I hope I’m wrong because I think the OL is the biggest question mark this fall.
By the end of the season, that '93 team was as good as any in the land, and as you point out, that was proven in '94.
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