And leave society to you mental midgets?
Only a retard like yourself can look at America and not see anything wrong.
"How the college debt debate shifted with one big idea"
- Thread starter BobPSU92
- Start date
And leave society to you mental midgets?
Only a retard like yourself can look at America and not see anything wrong.
Student loan debt was exempted from bankruptcy protection when the Clinton Administration and the Democratic Congress re-wrote bankruptcy legislation in 2005. Congress passed the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005, which made it so that no student loan — federal or private — could be discharged in bankruptcy unless the borrower can prove repaying the loan would cause “undue hardship,” a condition that is incredibly difficult to demonstrate unless the person has a severe disability. That essentially lumps student loan debt in with child support and criminal fines — other types of debt that can’t be discharged.
So your only two options in life were to go to the law school you did or dig ditches?
Right
College is an investment in your future - not a right.
Would you invest $100,000 for something that won't ever provide the return on investment? Alot of this generation (and quite a few when I was in school) don't think of things like this. They see college is 'free' - since the payback is years into the future and don't comprehend what they are getting into.
I get the point of choosing between what you love to do and a career that will be financially rewarding - I get that it is a hard choice. I had to make the same choice - and while I don't love my career - there are things that make me enjoy it some - but I ensure my Out of work life is that much better to offset it.
It isn't black/white. If you want to be in a 'rewarding' industry that doesn't pay much - go to less expensive schools, or try to get into the field via alternate routes (apprenticeship/etc).
Again I get how tough it can be to choose between fields - but at the same time - the student made a choice to take on debt that would be tough to pay back. It was a bad choice and personal accountability needs to come into play at some point.
Now can we fix the system - and make it better - yes. I am for fixing interest rates to be very low, or capping the interest to a certain amount, and allowing students to lengthen the period to repay loans (I was 10 years in and refinanced to lock in a 1.4% rate over 20 years - so i will be paying for my loans for a total of 30 years - but i can't beat the rate) and stuff to enable some relief from this.
However - just erasing the debt - that is possibly the worst idea. What about the students before them, or the students after - why just a subset. Won't this encourage more bad behavior? It won't teach fiscal responsibility - which needs to be addressed.
Wiping the debt clean doesn't address the problems - just currently treats the symptoms.
I love that people blame the Baby Boomers for everything (I am not a baby boomer). Yes some in that generation contributed to the issues today - but many did not.
The issues with student loans are caused by
1) Government stating you can't discard SLs via bankruptcy (i get the theory) which allowed many lenders to not care how much students were borrowing because they new they'd get it back
2) Universities becoming bloated with Admin and building, and arms races - with all this guaranteed income
3) Students not understanding finances. They don't pay for college so don't truly grasp the cost - the tuition, room and board, etc are monopoly money. I have met people (both when i was in school and recently) who purposely borrow more money for school so they can 'have fun'. I am not talking tuition, room/board, fees, books, etc - I am talking bar money, shopping money, etc. They don't realize or care that the $5 beer they are buying will cost them $20 to repay.
4) Students not being honest about return on investment. Taking $100,000 loans to major in something that will earn $25 k to start and max out at $75 k isn't a good investment.
Erasing their debt - is rewarding bad behavior. If I were to invest $100k in a very risky stock that goes under the next day - can I get rewarded by getting my cash back because I made a bad choice?
Would you invest $100,000 for something that won't ever provide the return on investment? Alot of this generation (and quite a few when I was in school) don't think of things like this. They see college is 'free' - since the payback is years into the future and don't comprehend what they are getting into.
I get the point of choosing between what you love to do and a career that will be financially rewarding - I get that it is a hard choice. I had to make the same choice - and while I don't love my career - there are things that make me enjoy it some - but I ensure my Out of work life is that much better to offset it.
It isn't black/white. If you want to be in a 'rewarding' industry that doesn't pay much - go to less expensive schools, or try to get into the field via alternate routes (apprenticeship/etc).
Again I get how tough it can be to choose between fields - but at the same time - the student made a choice to take on debt that would be tough to pay back. It was a bad choice and personal accountability needs to come into play at some point.
Now can we fix the system - and make it better - yes. I am for fixing interest rates to be very low, or capping the interest to a certain amount, and allowing students to lengthen the period to repay loans (I was 10 years in and refinanced to lock in a 1.4% rate over 20 years - so i will be paying for my loans for a total of 30 years - but i can't beat the rate) and stuff to enable some relief from this.
However - just erasing the debt - that is possibly the worst idea. What about the students before them, or the students after - why just a subset. Won't this encourage more bad behavior? It won't teach fiscal responsibility - which needs to be addressed.
Wiping the debt clean doesn't address the problems - just currently treats the symptoms.
I love that people blame the Baby Boomers for everything (I am not a baby boomer). Yes some in that generation contributed to the issues today - but many did not.
The issues with student loans are caused by
1) Government stating you can't discard SLs via bankruptcy (i get the theory) which allowed many lenders to not care how much students were borrowing because they new they'd get it back
2) Universities becoming bloated with Admin and building, and arms races - with all this guaranteed income
3) Students not understanding finances. They don't pay for college so don't truly grasp the cost - the tuition, room and board, etc are monopoly money. I have met people (both when i was in school and recently) who purposely borrow more money for school so they can 'have fun'. I am not talking tuition, room/board, fees, books, etc - I am talking bar money, shopping money, etc. They don't realize or care that the $5 beer they are buying will cost them $20 to repay.
4) Students not being honest about return on investment. Taking $100,000 loans to major in something that will earn $25 k to start and max out at $75 k isn't a good investment.
Erasing their debt - is rewarding bad behavior. If I were to invest $100k in a very risky stock that goes under the next day - can I get rewarded by getting my cash back because I made a bad choice?
I am not personally arguing that higher education should be free. However, where it's been artificially inflated because the government decided to give out unlimited amounts, and the higher education administrators got into an arms race as a result, I think that needs regulated in order to make the cost reasonable. Because the two alternatives, either a debt-riddled enormous segment of the population or else a much less educated society, are terrible options for our future.
Oh Jesus Christ, yeah, the point is millenials just want something for nothing. Yes, we all know life is tough, shocking as this may be, we all have dealt with difficulty as well, thank you for the juvenile lecture. The bad decisions were the people from the prior generations who caused tuition to skyrocket, not the 18 year-olds left to deal with it. And regardless, if you think our country is better off either paralyzing our youth with debt or rendering them less educated, then you sure don't want America to be successful going forward.
Again, terrible comparison. Housing and apartment costs are driven by the markets. Tuition became so unbearable because the people running the government made terrible decisions and caused the cost to go out of control and untethered to markets. Why do they waltz off into retirement when those decisions screwed the next generation out of having the same opportunities they had?
How did our trillion dollars + investment in the F35 work out? I guess if money gets boondoggled through military complex with 0 accountability then a-ok. Investment to assist with atrocious, predatory, inescapeable student debt? Socialism!
Uh, you might want to go back and review who was President and which party was the majority in Congress in 2005. Just sayin'.
I agree that more needs fixed. It has to be a complete overhaul if any debt is to be forgiven at all, or else we're right back here again in a few years. So yes, I agree.
I just disagree there was a true choice. Prior generations could go to college for what area they wanted to spend the rest of their life without having to be in debt for 30 years. Why is this generation not afforded that same opportunity when it's the prior generations that screwed that up for them? They screwed it up, the put an entire generation into unbearable debt just for making the same decisions they made about their educations 30 years earlier. Why shouldn't they pay for those mistakes? Why is the next generation responsible for it? Because they all should've realized the prior generation screwed it up and become plumbers instead? A whole generation of nothing but tradesman doing something they hate because their parents' generation were idiots. Ridiculous.
Yawn. If that's all you can read out of that, you aren't even trying. Good luck refusing to address a crushing burden on our economy caused by the poor governance of prior generations because you're stuck in a view that it's just lazy kids making bad decisions.
I don't know about the affordability of the Warren plan but there surely would be huge benefits to society if applicants to colleges were chosen based solely on merit rather than ability to pay. We already have a somewhat inefficient "socialistic" system in that those who can afford to pay subsidize those who can pay some and those who can't pay any may be left out.
PS: Perhaps the least practical part of her plan seems like the tax on wealth. How do you even start to reliably measure that? i can imagine the schemes diverted from productive enterprise to accountants and lawyers to underestimate it.
I must be missing something. If I apply for a job, my employers all verify my school credentials. Most major employers do now. I had to submit masters transcripts a few years back. If you don't pay debt then no degree from school in official transcripts. 7 years of bk, bad credit, no degree..that seems fair. Start over and fund education yourself.
You may have an argument about the F-35. But here's the thing. Defending this nation's sovereignty is a constitutional mandate. Creating an unlimited pile of money for student loans is prohibited by the constitution.
I'm also a conservative and former libertarian who has voted for nothing but republicans my entire life, yet I'm arguing the other side. I argue it, despite being against my own party, because (1) I see it's effect first hand among all my peers, and (2) I believe the fallout is going to devastate our economy in the future.
So everyone who graduated in 1960-2000 and paid off their debts in 3 years can puff their chest about how hard they worked and "kids these days are lazy and made bad choices" and all that ignorant BS, but it doesn't change the fact that prior generations caused this debt for millenials by refusing to take control of the unregulated money going to schools, and this debt will cripple our country in the future if nothing is done. If you're fine with our economy crumbling because of your generation's allowing this tuition situation to occur, fine.
CFPB was founded in 2011. After student loans were taken over by the Federal Government.
LdN
A properly educated person should be able to state the pros and cons of the issue and not just make political statements up front on which to base their judgments. Also, a properly educated person should realize there are benefits of education, both societal and individual, beyond mere ticket-punching.
Judging by most of the posts here, a Penn State education is definitely overpriced.
I don't get blaming the generation. It was the college administrators and politicians that screwed it up. Policies introduced (usually by the left) to try and fix things that weren't broken have broken things.
60 years ago - people couldn't afford college - so they joined the military which then paid for college (with GI bills).
Yes today - it is unfair to some extent that college is expensive - but if you are studying something that won't pay the loans - work to lower the loans. Join the Military for 4 years which will pay a good chunk of your tuition. Go to community college for 2 years and transfer credits. There are many options available that require some sacrifice - but kids don't want to do that. They want to go to the prestigious, expensive university and major in something that will better the world with no regard for how it will play out. We should not be rewarding these kids who aren't willing to make some sacrifices themselves.
It's not about unlimited money, at least not for me. College should cost you something. It's just that prior generations allowed the lending to be uncontrolled, so colleges jacked up tuitions (of course, if you're told your business can sell 10 widgets for $10, or the same 10 for $10,000 and demand doesn't change, you will charge more). If anyone in government had the testicular fortitude to do what's right instead of what feels good, they would've told colleges they only get federal funding it tuition increases follow national inflation. They didn't, they just let it go nuts, and a left a generation riddled with a lifetime of debt just for going to college.
You take the money out of the economy one way or another. The government either raises taxes to cover it, which removes money from the economy; pays for it through raising the national debt which will eventually be paid back either with interest or through inflation; or saddle the loan makers with eating the losses if they aren't the government. At this point the only question is what part of the economy the money comes from, not whether the money comes from the economy or not. Money spent is money spent.
If you want to pay off everyone's college debt, then make a similar payment to those that paid off their debt themselves and those that didn't take on the debt in the first place and didn't benefit from a degree. Otherwise you are just taking from everyone to pay a benefit to people that already got one - a college degree.
I am all for a true, good plan to reduce costs for those who can't afford it. It does bother me that many great students can't go to college because of finances - but it can't just be tax the rich. That won't work. That is re-distribution of wealth - and in my mind discourages much of the drive. The US became the industrial leader in part because the government stayed out of business and allowed the free market to reward those who worked hard and developed new areas).
That said - people need to take responsibility. I am all for helping those who truly need help attend college - but there should be strings (minimum GPA, specific majors, expectation that they continue to help the system after college, etc).
The point being missed here is the government intervention in the auto market. Most importantly, fed policy led the way for zero down/zero interest car loans. If you could fog a mirror, you could borrow the money to get a car.
Government intervention in the free market, no matter where, creates inflation.
You are arguing the point because you are up to your a$$ in debt.
"All of your peers" average $37K in college debt -- which isn't really that much in grand scheme of things.
Well, my point is all those politicians were elected by and part of those prior generations.
And again, I don't think it should be free. I just think the government failed to regulate it as they should've when they were allowing these schools to skyrocket prices. Those decisions were made by prior generations, but now its the currently 20-40 year olds who didn't vote for any of those people that are paying the price. So if we want to elect someone that makes them pay for those poor choices, you shouldn't be surprised. Yes, we choose to go to college, but it should never have
Also, my main point remains, this will cripple our economy in the future. It needs fixed. We simply can't have half the population paying $1k/mo to the government instead of injecting it into local economies and growing families. But we're going to get there soon if we don't do something about it.
As a former libertarian, can't you see there's no place in the constitution that allows the federal government to involve itself?
You're relying on people who walk around with their hands out 7 days a week to show testicular fortitude. Not gonna happen!
I appreciate your enlightened views on the subject.
Or maybe you are faced with having to pay for your kids' college?
Like those conservatives who hate gays until they have a gay kid.
I half-agree with your post, and as I stated up-thread, I would, with modifications, make college debt dischargeable in bankruptcy.
On the other hand, many young people are lazy and do not think about the hard choices they face. For instance, several years ago a good friend mentioned that some colleges gave large merit based scholarships for good ACT scores. Since that time, I have been trying to help my now 17-year-old son and encourage him by giving him bonuses for good scores on standardized tests.
In June 2018 my son scored 30 on ACT. (About top 6%). I knew he could get in to most places. However, I knew the real money would kick in at about 32 or 33. So in June I set up a generous bonus system for my son, and by working 30 hours a week over the summer, raised his score to 33. (Top 1%) He earned a $5,700 bonus and saved me $50,000 in tuition to the good public school where he is going. He could go to an expensive private school such as Pepperdine that would be fun, but that is out of the question, which he agrees with.
The point being that I have been evaluating the financials for a long time, and I am not having my son go to any school that will take him without very seriously considering the financial implications. My son is very self-motivated and has already formed 3 businesses (none made money) and has written a full-length screen play. I am constantly asking myself what benefits business school has for him and if there are ways to reduce the cost (mainly room and board), I will take advantage of them. If I think business school is a financial waste (Think Gates and Jobs), I won't hesitate to withdraw my financial support. I am not passively sitting back and saying my son is going to a good school (which he is) and everything is hunky-dory. I think many young people and their parents don't give enough effort and thought as to how to reduce their expenses and get the most out of schooling [or other paths they could take]
For the record, I’m not in favor of discharging all student debt. But I do believe student debt it’s going to be a drag on the economy with consequences that aren’t and can’t be immediately understood.
One more thing. I love the “blame the Millennials” crowd. We took the classes, majors, and worthless degrees sold to us and setup by the miserable/greedy old bastards from your generation.
One more thing. I love the “blame the Millennials” crowd. We took the classes, majors, and worthless degrees sold to us and setup by the miserable/greedy old bastards from your generation.
I'm referring to a married couple. In 2005, the average monthly student loan payment was $227. By 2016 it was $393. So assuming a married couple, it was already nearly $800 in 2016, which means it's likely close to $1k already, and the problem is only getting worse.
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Because it's a little complicated and you probably wouldn't understand it anyway, like most absolutist statements, that is not necessarily true.
Why not take responsibility for your own actions and look out for yourself. There is no reason to believe everything you are told. I certainly have never done so.
When I was younger I transferred from UCSB to Bowling Green, and I made the conscious choice to leave California because I thought it was too expensive. Even though I can afford much more and could pay cash for a new car, I currently drive a 17-year-old Honda Accord.
Why not admit that miserable old f u c k s like yourself are solely responsible for today’s student lending climate?
You miserable young f*cks are babies too lazy to take responsibility for your actions. Also, if you want to blame someone, blame the Leftist PC universities, which have profited off of young, immature students.
Taking money from the government means that amount of money is not there to fund programs that it might have. So you are going to cut programs to offset this expense, raise taxes to cover it, or raise the national debt which will eventually be paid back with interest or inflated out of existence. This isn't a free proposal and all taxpayers eventually pick up the tab either through increased taxes or lost programs/benefits/services. There is no free ride. All you are doing is changing who pays the bill and spreading it out to include those that did not receive the direct benefit.
Fortunately you all will be dead in 20 years. Then “we” can balance social security and fix problems without curmudgeons in our way.
I have no problem making my monthly payments, so you're incorrect. I've been fortunate enough to be very successful. So I'm genuinely not arguing it for my benefit, I'm a fortunate exception. But my peers are married couples who both have degrees, and they're paying close to or above $1k/mo.
Well, I left the libertarians as I aged because I felt they go too far with the lack of government involvement. The government should either not be involved in student lending at all, or if it is, regulate how it's spent. But to get involved, yet exert no control over the amounts charged, is insane.
Haven't had to pay for my kid's college yet, he's still in kindergarten. He'll be mostly on his own for higher education expenses, as I was. Because I do believe in taking personal financial responsibility. That's why I completely disagree it should be free. I just don't think an entire generation should bear the burden of the poor decisions made by the government that preceded their right to vote.
It's like those drug companies that raised prices 4000% once they monopolized the market. Do we blame the person taking the drug, because they had a choice to take something else less effective? Is that a real choice? Or do we go after the drug company for their predatory practice? Of course I understand that is not an equal comparison (health versus career choice), but it's also not that far off.
I truly sympathize with kids who graduated last 10-12 years. When I graduated in mid 90s with BA, the market valued a college degree. Economy needed workers and total debt from PSU instate with R&B was probably low 40k. You could easily find a job for 40k in 1997 with tech bubble and we were afforded training and reiubursement by employers. They needed us to learn and grow. Today, you get 100k debt and 40k job. Employers could give a sh&t if you have MBA and won't pay more. No training, no ed reimbursement. I work for rich global bank too. Why? Cheap asian labor. H1B and outsourcing have destroyed social contract with US working youth. I puke at these articles "oh you should have studied comp engineeering" 95% of people don't have brains or desire for it. There used to be a place for non techs, it was journalism and publishing. Now it is gone.
Redistribution of wealth has been going on for decades, right into the pockets of the 1%.
According to some in this thread, Millennials are probably to blame for cheap labor in other countries too. Damn pesky colleges.
