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Is CF criticism valid…

It's more about being a realist than it is about setting expectations. Do I want championships? Of course. Do I expect them? It would be nice every 10-15 years but I don't expect them because that's just setting myself up for disappointment. I also don't think that we're a non-factor. Paterno won his first championship in year 17 or 18 and Franklin hasn't even been at Penn State that long. Would he win 2 championships if he stayed for 46 years? Who knows.

Pennsylvania was also packed with great HS players back in Joepa's day and now we are way behind all the southern states and California so the pickings are a little slimmer for Franklin. Locking down PA/MD/NJ isn't enough to be elite any more like it was 50 years ago.

Franklin absolutely let a couple big games slip away in the 4th quarter that we should have won. I think a lot of other coaches would have won those games with our teams. But even if we win those it's no guarantee that we win championships those years. It's also pointless to get worked up wishing for something that's not going to happen, and Franklin will be our coach for the foreseeable future so I'm just trying to be positive.
So what is realistic? With our status and the expectation of the Big Ten/SEC getting 6-9 playoff spots a year we should expect to be in the playoff most years and competitive in those games.

Same expectations for Michigan Ohio State USC Oregon Georgia Bama LSU Oklahoma Texas etc...and if you aren't meeting those expectations coaches won't last long.
 
You left out a comparison. Rhule, Schiano and Golden combined have ZERO win sfor their career vs the top 10.

The field vs the top 10 us usually about 10-110 during the regular season vs the top 10. What do you expect a coach to do vs the top 10?

The top 10 Vs the top 10 are only .500 for any season and it is usually the top 3 that have winning records.
Lol Rhule Golden and Schiano lol
 
So what is realistic? With our status and the expectation of the Big Ten/SEC getting 6-9 playoff spots a year we should expect to be in the playoff most years and competitive in those games.

Same expectations for Michigan Ohio State USC Oregon Georgia Bama LSU Oklahoma Texas etc...and if you aren't meeting those expectations coaches won't last long.


There are probably another 6-8 who all expect to make the playoffs. That is about 15-20 schools who expect to make the playoffs.
 
those are some of the coaches people want to replace JF.

If top 10 wins are a priority then maybe the fans should come up with a replacement who actually has a good record vs the top 10. There are only a handful.

You are making the same argument as the fire Franklin crowd, but in the opposite end of the spectrum. The only coach out there right now that would for your criteria is probably Kirby. Even Dabo has fell off in the past 4 seasons, and he arguably has more talent and a decided easier schedule.

Saban is gone. Meyer isn't returning. Kiffin hasn't won anything yet. Riley is a QB guru, but has lost more than he should recently.

The only potential better option is very likely not anyone that anybody is predicting.

And JF may very well be the best we are going to have for another 30 years.

Good luck figuring it out.
 
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Is that why Franklin decided to hand it off to Sanders on 4th &5 in OSU territory to end the game in 2018? Sanders only had 43 yds rushing all game.
And then no one remembers that maybe we should block their AA DE Chase Young.
 
those are some of the coaches people want to replace JF.

If top 10 wins are a priority then maybe the fans should come up with a replacement who actually has a good record vs the top 10. There are only a handful.
Some--who wants Golden or Schiano?
Some delusional die-hard Paterno fans want Rhule
You have to consider their teams vs the top 10 teams and Franklin's teams which aren't comparable.
 
You are making the same argument as the fire Franklin crowd, but in the opposite end of the spectrum. The only coach out there right now that would for your criteria is probably Kirby. Even Dabo has fell off in the past 4 seasons, and he arguably has more talent and a decided easier schedule.

Saban is gone. Meyer isn't returning. Kiffin hasn't won anything yet. Riley is a QB guru, but has lost more than he should recently.

The only potential better option is very likely not anyone that anybody is predicting.

And JF may very well be the best we are going to have for another 30 years.

Good luck figuring it out.

Is the opposite end of the spectrum the same?

It is not my criteria. This the criteria that the franklin haters use. Problem is the coaches that they want dont fit their criteria. The handful of coaches who fit their criteria are not coming here.

The next thing they like to complain about is compensation. That is ironic since the handful of coaches who meet their winning criteria actually make MORE money.
 
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Correct--and if they don't make it they'll have a new coach because that's the goal


And probably still wont achieve the goal. 100+ teams. Probably 200+ Head Coaches the last 10 years. How many won? 5-6?

There are a lot of variables other than coaching and the schools dont control many of those variables.
 
He wins the games he is supposed to win and loses the games he isn't which are few. He loses to Ohio State because Ohio State is better. They have been a better program than PSU for almost three decades. He loses to Michigan when Michigan is better and beats Michigan when we are better.

I am not really sure what people want. He doesn't punch above his weight but then again very few guys can do that on a regular basis. The elite coaches are elite because they build better programs with better resources than Franklin has and win because they have better teams almost all of the time.
Actually, recruiting wise, and with what he inherited, he has consistently punched above his weight. Depth has been his biggest issue, which makes sense, considering he had to rebuild the program.

For instance, we don't lose Trace, we have a massively different season. We don't lose our lbr's during the Rose Bowl, we beat USC. We simply didn't have proven depth, nor have we against tOSU. Throw in some horrendous calls, and without them, we beat tOSU again. Something U of M didn't do until they started cheating.
 
It is has been two decades since OSU has surpassed us. We were pretty competitive until 2004-ish. Even that 2002 title, I remember OSU was down to a horrible Purdue team with 1m left and Krenzel throws bomb for TD late. That is difference - OSU is clutch. I don't know formula but they do it time and time again. Outside of 2016 OSU game, we have been opposite of clutch.

I often don't know what people mean by better resources? Do Cincy, MSU, UW, TCU, Oregon, even Clemson have "better resources" since Franklin took over PSU? All made the CFP at least once. I agree with most of statement but simply put, Franklin has the support, recruits and facilities to build a program capable of multiple CFP appearances. It all comes down to coaching. He gets out-coached. He is not elite when it matters. We have all witnessed the painful calls that led to 1 point, 3 pts and 7 pts differential through the big games. It is like clockwork. He can't outsmart other quality coaches. That is ok if we only care to get 10w and pat ourselves on back. We have been happy with this for years
Yes, every team you mentioned had better facilities than PSU, other than Cincy. What league was Cincy in? How did Cincy do in their playoff game? They scored 6 points. Some folks here have no clue just how far behind we were. They see the Beav and think that's what brings in recruits. Between OB and Franklin, we have rebuilt everything. Gee, I wonder why. We still have 6'6 DE's sleeping in beds designed for folks who are 6'2" at best.

Furthermore, if anyone actually talked to parents or recruits when Franklin first came in, you'd understand, just how big an impact Sandusky had on recruiting. Families literally didn't want to bring their kids to campus. Try recruiting against that.
 
The issue with big games vs top 10 teams is just how inept it is. One win in 10 years, c'mon man he has to be better. Not expecting a great record but wow he just about never wins. He blew it in 2017 and 2018 versus OSU and that set us back where it seems as much mental as physical lately. Maybe he can start winning some big games starting with USC on 10/12.
You do realize, every year, 2 of those teams are tOSU and Michigan. Almost every year, they had better players and far more depth. 3 of those years, Michigan was cheating.
 
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You left out a comparison. Rhule, Schiano and Golden combined have ZERO win sfor their career vs the top 10.

The field vs the top 10 us usually about 10-110 during the regular season vs the top 10. What do you expect a coach to do vs the top 10?

The top 10 Vs the top 10 are only .500 for any season and it is usually the top 3 that have winning records.


The top 10 are currently 35-0. 0-35 for the field.
Ok? I was simply trying to provide the stats that were asked for in the OP (which didn't ask for a comparison with other coaches), I wasn't making a comment one way or the other. For me I think we should stick with JF for now but if he's not able to get a playoff win within the next year or 2 we should start looking around unless we're happy with the plateau we're currently stuck on.
 
It's more about being a realist than it is about setting expectations. Do I want championships? Of course. Do I expect them? It would be nice every 10-15 years but I don't expect them because that's just setting myself up for disappointment. I also don't think that we're a non-factor. Paterno won his first championship in year 17 or 18 and Franklin hasn't even been at Penn State that long. Would he win 2 championships if he stayed for 46 years? Who knows.

Pennsylvania was also packed with great HS players back in Joepa's day and now we are way behind all the southern states and California so the pickings are a little slimmer for Franklin. Locking down PA/MD/NJ isn't enough to be elite any more like it was 50 years ago.

Franklin absolutely let a couple big games slip away in the 4th quarter that we should have won. I think a lot of other coaches would have won those games with our teams. But even if we win those it's no guarantee that we win championships those years. It's also pointless to get worked up wishing for something that's not going to happen, and Franklin will be our coach for the foreseeable future so I'm just trying to be positive.
Excellent post.
 
Oregon does. Clemson definitely went all in for football.

The others, no.

The key thing: only Sparty had to beat OSU or Bama to get in the 4 team playoff. They did it once.

Put us in the Big 12, ACC, and or PAC12 over that same period and PSU is very likely a multi time playoff participant. That has to be relevant.

That is why, going forward, we have to make the 12 team playoff at a high rate.

Agree. It was no surprise that Clemson's rise was also around time VT, FSU, Miami were headed on down-trend. I still can't believe those dopes lost to Pitt and Syracuse yet still made CFP during those years. ACC is absolute joke. Dabo got lucky with Venables hire. He basically had a great HC as his DC. I did like those Venables defenses at Clemson but all about the easy path. I guess same as complaints that PSU played easy Eastern schedule. We probably split ACC titles with Clemson and probably make 3 CFPs if we were in that conference 2016-2023
 
I hated that call too but from what I've heard from the staff and players since then is that the run was open and guys simply missed their assignments. I'm not an Xs and Os guy so I couldn't tell you whether that's true or not.
That is precisely what happened. They had used that play earlier to success. Blown block, and that was it. However, blaming a game on one play is rather silly.
 
And probably still wont achieve the goal. 100+ teams. Probably 200+ Head Coaches the last 10 years. How many won? 5-6?

There are a lot of variables other than coaching and the schools dont control many of those variables.
But that's the goal--you keep making changes until to reach those expectations.
Only a few won because of a 4 team playoff--the expectation changes when it becomes 12.
The top SEC and Big Ten schools, which includes us, will expect to contend. I'm not sure why you have an issue for that. There's no reason to believe Franklin can't be that guy.
 
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Is the opposite end of the spectrum the same?

It is not my criteria. This the criteria that the franklin haters use. Problem is the coaches that they want dont fit their criteria. The handful of coaches who fit their criteria are not coming here.

The next thing they like to complain about is compensation. That is ironic since the handful of coaches who meet their winning criteria actually make MORE money.

Demanding people produce the coaches with a winning record vs the top 10 is just as absurd as the Fire Franklin crowd who act like Bielema is a superior coach because he "game plans tough vs Franklin" or the we didn't score 30 in the 1st quarter vs Kent State crowd.

Franklin is a good coach. I'm fully supportive. He's got to navigate this new era. Playoffs. NIL. Recruiting, HS and portal along with roster retention. We can't start missing the playoffs until it's up to 16 or 24. He needs to get us there. And then we need to win there.
 
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Why do we think we should be able to compete with schools like Ohio State, Bama, and Georgia's of the World? They have $$$$ to pull off top recruiting classes year in and year out. Our recruiting classes typically are in the 20-15 range, and we'll pull in a top 10 classes every few years. But we typically finish above what our talent predicts. The only comparable recruiting classes to us were Michigan. But they didn't start winning til they started Cheating. So for us to compete, our fans either need to shell out more $$$$ like the OSU, Georgia, or Alabamas or cheat like Michigan.
 
You are making the same argument as the fire Franklin crowd, but in the opposite end of the spectrum. The only coach out there right now that would for your criteria is probably Kirby. Even Dabo has fell off in the past 4 seasons, and he arguably has more talent and a decided easier schedule.

Saban is gone. Meyer isn't returning. Kiffin hasn't won anything yet. Riley is a QB guru, but has lost more than he should recently.

The only potential better option is very likely not anyone that anybody is predicting.

And JF may very well be the best we are going to have for another 30 years.

Good luck figuring it out.
You would be correct regarding Clemson, as they are 64%, and we are 61%.
 
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Why do we think we should be able to compete with schools like Ohio State, Bama, and Georgia's of the World? They have $$$$ to pull off top recruiting classes year in and year out. Our recruiting classes typically are in the 20-15 range, and we'll pull in a top 10 classes every few years. But we typically finish above what our talent predicts. The only comparable recruiting classes to us were Michigan. But they didn't start winning til they started Cheating. So for us to compete, our fans either need to shell out more $$$$ like the OSU, Georgia, or Alabamas or cheat like Michigan.
It's his job to get the NIL money--there's no reason he can't.
 
It's more about being a realist than it is about setting expectations. Do I want championships? Of course. Do I expect them? It would be nice every 10-15 years but I don't expect them because that's just setting myself up for disappointment. I also don't think that we're a non-factor. Paterno won his first championship in year 17 or 18 and Franklin hasn't even been at Penn State that long. Would he win 2 championships if he stayed for 46 years? Who knows.

Pennsylvania was also packed with great HS players back in Joepa's day and now we are way behind all the southern states and California so the pickings are a little slimmer for Franklin. Locking down PA/MD/NJ isn't enough to be elite any more like it was 50 years ago.

Franklin absolutely let a couple big games slip away in the 4th quarter that we should have won. I think a lot of other coaches would have won those games with our teams. But even if we win those it's no guarantee that we win championships those years. It's also pointless to get worked up wishing for something that's not going to happen, and Franklin will be our coach for the foreseeable future so I'm just trying to be positive.

It took Paterno exactly 4 years to get Penn State in a position to win the National Title. His 1969 team finished ranked 2nd that year. Paterno had another top 5 team in the National Title hunt with his 12-0 team in 1973. These accomplishments were done within Paterno’s first 8 years as a head coach. Being in the discussions for a National title is an accomplishment for any coach. Most PSU fans would be very happy if Franklin managed to get Penn State into the narrative of National Title discussions.

Penn State’s peer B1G rivals are programs like USC, Ohio State, Michigan, Washington, and Oregon. All these programs have ambitions to be serious contenders for the National Title. That is the bar and the expectation. None of these rivals are satisfied with low hanging fruit accomplishments. Franklin’s record against the better teams is abysmal. In addition, not being in contention for a title via the playoffs has been a major point of failure.

Penn State has had and continues to have enough resources, talent and support to win more games against the power programs. The head coach has been a weakness and is perceived as such nationally. The program has clearly underperformed over the past 10 years.
 
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It's his job to get the NIL money--there's no reason he can't.
That's not remotely true, not how it works. Furthermore, Pennsylvania legislature put Penn State years behind other states. Additionally, no top schools are still dealing with a schism amongst fans and donors Penn State is. No matter how much you want to pretend this is a black and white situation, it isn't. Not remotely close.
 
That's not remotely true, not how it works. Furthermore, Pennsylvania legislature put Penn State years behind other states. Additionally, no top schools are still dealing with a schism amongst fans and donors Penn State is. No matter how much you want to pretend this is a black and white situation, it isn't. Not remotely close.
That's exactly how it works. It's his job to make those donors change their mind. That's all part of the HC's job in 2024 even if you don't like it.
If he can't do it then he won't be here too much longer without contending for a titlle
Fair or not, it's all on him...all of it.
 
It took Paterno exactly 4 years to get Penn State in a position to win the National Title. His 1969 team finished ranked 2nd that year. Paterno had another top 5 team in the National Title hunt with his 12-0 team in 1973. These accomplishments were done within Paterno’s first 8 years as a head coach. Being in the discussions for a National title is an accomplishment for any coach. Most PSU fans would be very happy if Franklin managed to get Penn State into the narrative of National Title discussions.

Penn State’s peer B1G rivals are programs like USC, Ohio State, Michigan, Washington, and Oregon. All these programs have ambitions to be serious contenders for the National Title. That is the bar and the expectation. None of these rivals are satisfied with low hanging fruit accomplishments. Franklin’s record against the better teams is abysmal. In addition, not being in contention for a title via the playoffs has been a major point of failure.

Penn State has had and continues to have enough resources, talent and support to win more games against the power programs. The head coach has been a weakness and is perceived as such nationally. The program has clearly underperformed over the past 10 years.
This is hilariously, not remotely true. Penn State has been in National Championship conversions many times under Franklin, including this year. We were 2 decades behind other top programs in facilities. This may be one of the most ignorant and nonfactual posts I've ever read on here.
 
That's exactly how it works. It's his job to make those donors change their mind. That's all part of the HC's job in 2024 even if you don't like it.
If he can't do it then he won't be here too much longer without contending for a titlle
Fair or not, it's all on him...all of it.
Says who? You? You want a coach to come in and fix the largest scandal in NCAA history? Based on what? He's the football coach. Lmao. Some of you are so ignorant or disingenuous, it's ridiculous. The entire university was literally trying to downplay football when he came in, including, the idiot President. Get real.
 
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This is hilariously, not remotely true. Penn State has been in National Championship conversions many times under Franklin, including this year. We were 2 decades behind other top programs in facilities. This may be one of the most ignorant and nonfactual posts I've ever read on here.

What are you Franklin’s brother-in-law? It’s the facilities that have been holding Penn State back? That is hilarious!

A lack of facilities didn’t stop tiny TCU from beating mighty Michigan in the playoffs a couple years ago.

A lack of facilities didn’t stop Washington from making the playoffs last year.

Just stop with the excuses for Franklin.
 
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That's exactly how it works. It's his job to make those donors change their mind. That's all part of the HC's job in 2024 even if you don't like it.
If he can't do it then he won't be here too much longer without contending for a titlle
Fair or not, it's all on him...all of it.
I can tell you personally, you have zero clue what Franklin went through on the recruiting trail. Parents, literally, wouldn't entertain him many times. Parents refused to allow their kids to come to Penn State. Just because he was hired, does not make him God. How many coaches did it take Texas, hell, Texas A&M to try and get relevant? They had zero hurdles, and millions upon millions more money than Penn State. Some here are absolutely clueless regarding the mountain Franklin had to climb here.
 
It was but a few years ago when Illinois ran a gold line offense the whole game with much less talent, and Franklin simply had no idea what was going on. That’s an example of a coach winning a game when he had far inferior talent. We can all make fun of Beliema, but when has Franklin ever run a game plan and we were all just like where did that come from? Wow. I think the Illinois game is going to be more difficult than people think. at least Franklin will have a chance to improve his record against rank teams.
 
What are you Franklin’s brother-in-law? It’s the facilities that have been holding Penn State back? That is hilarious!

A lack of facilities didn’t stop tiny TCU from beating mighty Michigan in the playoffs a couple years ago.

A lack of facilities didn’t stop Washington from making the playoffs last year.

Just stop with the excuses for Franklin.
Weak sauce. Do you have any idea how wealthy TCU is? They recruit in Texas. Washington was in the PAC12. How'd they do against Penn State? Do you realize, the median income for TCU students is 80k over Penn State? They are an incredibly wealthy university, with massive donors. Their university is absolutely beautiful, as are their facilities. We are not. Washington has fine facilities, and more wealthy donors than Penn State. The Gates alone donated 272 million dollars to the U of W. Their student median income is 172k over Penn State's We are a blue collar program compared to their money.

Wealthier families equal far bigger NIL dollars. Pennsylvania is a declining state, and has been for decades. Texas and Washington are booming states.
 
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Says who? You? You want a coach to come in and fix the largest scandal in NCAA history? Based on what? He's the football coach. Lmao. Some of you are so ignorant or disingenuous, it's ridiculous. The entire university was literally trying to downplay football when he came in, including, the idiot President. Get real.
Get over the scandal it's long gone and can't continue to be used as an excuse
Stop living in the past, we're dealing with 2024. Blaming the scandal for anything today is ignorant, disingenuous and ridiculous--to use your "ridiculous" words.
 
I can tell you personally, you have zero clue what Franklin went through on the recruiting trail. Parents, literally, wouldn't entertain him many times. Parents refused to allow their kids to come to Penn State. Just because he was hired, does not make him God. How many coaches did it take Texas, hell, Texas A&M to try and get relevant? They had zero hurdles, and millions upon millions more money than Penn State. Some here are absolutely clueless regarding the mountain Franklin had to climb here.
Again, stop talking about the past. We're dealing with today. He got us here--now he has to build on that or he won't be here.
 
It's the Fanbase who gives NIL money. If fans don't give the money in comparison to those top schools, then we shouldn't be in the conversation.
False, it's the coach's responsibility to ensure that money with donors. 100% on him and every coach.
 
I hated that call too but from what I've heard from the staff and players since then is that the run was open and guys simply missed their assignments. I'm not an Xs and Os guy so I couldn't tell you whether that's true or not.
Let's assume that's true. Isn't it the coach's responsibility to make sure the players know their assignments?

I realize that coaches can only to so much and that players mess up. But that's why he's getting paid $9 million. There have just been too many failures during key moments in big games.
 
Again, stop talking about the past. We're dealing with today. He got us here--now he has to build on that or he won't be here.
Dude, don't give directions to how or what folks speak about. History matters, particularly in this case. Franklin was behind the 8 ball for years. If folks had a damn clue, they'd simply enjoy the success we've had considering what the problem, to no fault of their own went through. You act as though everything just becomes peachy. This isn't rebuilding a company you buy that is struggling. You, as head coach at Penn State, are not the CEO of the university. You actually work for them.

Folks with your mindset are precious why we were 2 seconds from losing Cael Sanderson.
 
It took Paterno exactly 4 years to get Penn State in a position to win the National Title. His 1969 team finished ranked 2nd that year. Paterno had another top 5 team in the National Title hunt with his 12-0 team in 1973. These accomplishments were done within Paterno’s first 8 years as a head coach. Being in the discussions for a National title is an accomplishment for any coach. Most PSU fans would be very happy if Franklin managed to get Penn State into the narrative of National Title discussions.

Penn State’s peer B1G rivals are programs like USC, Ohio State, Michigan, Washington, and Oregon. All these programs have ambitions to be serious contenders for the National Title. That is the bar and the expectation. None of these rivals are satisfied with low hanging fruit accomplishments. Franklin’s record against the better teams is abysmal. In addition, not being in contention for a title via the playoffs has been a major point of failure.

Penn State has had and continues to have enough resources, talent and support to win more games against the power programs. The head coach has been a weakness and is perceived as such nationally. The program has clearly underperformed over the past 10 years.
Out of those rivals you mention, Oregon has never won a national championship and it's been 33 years since Washington won one. Not counting Michigan's blatant cheating last year it would have been 27 years for them. Even USC cheated to get their most recent championships 20 years ago with one of them being stripped. It's been 30 years since our 1994 team, one of the best in college football history, went undefeated and got screwed out of a championship. In other words, we're not that different than those other teams you mention besides OSU.

I'm not satisfied with a championship every 30 years, but it's also not so easy to win one these days without cheating or having an elite coach in a region that's full of talent. Most of that talent started leaving PA a couple decades ago, so we are stuck with a good but not elite coach, expecting to make the playoff most years, and if things fall right a miracle run to a championship game once in a while.
 
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False, it's the coach's responsibility to ensure that money with donors. 100% on him and every coach.
No it isn't, and it never has been at any university. You're out of your realm and have zero clue how this program works, nor do you know the parameters the program works under. Next, you'll tell the board, Franklin was responsible for the horrific law the Pennsylvania legislature passed regarding NIL. Meanwhile, dozens of schools had free reign on NIL. But hey, it's all on Franklin. Lmao.

So, why do we have an AD? Fundraising is the primary job of the Athletic Director, not the head football coach.
 
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Dude, don't give directions to how or what folks speak about. History matters, particularly in this case. Franklin was behind the 8 ball for years. If folks had a damn clue, they'd simply enjoy the success we've had considering what the problem, to no fault of their own went through. You act as though everything just becomes peachy. This isn't rebuilding a company you buy that is struggling. You, as head coach at Penn State, are not the CEO of the university. You actually work for them.

Folks with your mindset are precious why we were 2 seconds from losing Cael Sanderson.
You're the one dictating things here so I'll play along with your nonsense
History doesn't matter at all in this case. None
Who isn't enjoying the mediocre success we're having? The key is, like every coach, he has to build upon it. It's a simple concept that most get.
I don't care about wrestling so I doubt I'm a problem there
 
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